Dignity in Dying

@bentandbroken – have a read through of the dignitas website, it certainly answered a lot of questions for us regarding my sister in law.

@pjay – not sure if its the guy you are referring to but Paul Lamb passed away the other day Paul Lamb

My brother, nephew and myself have still not been told that we are in the clear by the CPS, although prosecution is extremely unlikely its a fairly unnerving experience & my sil’s ashes are still in Switzerland 9 months on due to covid restrictions which her elderly parents are struggling to deal with ☹️

I posted on this thread a year ago agreeing with previous posters pointing out that we afford our animals a better death than our loved ones.

Since then having witnessed my sister-in-law dying of cancer in our home I’m even more convinced that assisted dying should be enshrined in law. 5 days before she eventually died if she had been presented with a button to press to end it all she would have no question but our legal system made her linger. I marvel at the massive arrogance of our so called lawmakers presuming to pass judgement on people going though torment that I believe you cannot fully understand unless you are going through it yourself and denying them the option to end their suffering. Part of me wishes that karma catches up with them.

The objections come mainly from the Catholic church. Disguised and second hand lobbying and dressed up as concern for the vulnerable but its clear its faith based. their own campagining materials on euthanasia make this clear that they need to invent secular reasons for objecting but its actually about their faith

How effing arrogant. Use your faith to restrict what i can do in my life

Can you tell I’m angry with these backwards religious idiots?

Sorry thats a rather strong post. I didn’t mean to threadkill

I dont think you did TJ.

I’m all in favour of dignity in dying. I fail to see any moral or practical arguments for sustaining life past the wishes or past any level of meaningful life of someone who is terminally sick.

The outcome is going to sadly be the same but with no control or benefit to the person at the centre.

Is there a petition or a link TJ so I can sign up and back this or have I missed the boat?

I don’t think you did either TJ. My wife passed away about 9 weeks ago after a battle with cancer. I had to spend a month in a hospice watching her lose strength and pass away slowly and in pain. Every day she was conscious I had to reassure here that today could be the last, because she had enough and didn’t want to endure the pain any more. The stress on the children coming daily not knowing if it would be the last time they would see their Mum – at what point should they say their last good byes ? And missing their Mum passing away because they can’t spend 24/7 for a month in a hospice. And why….merely to assuage someone else’s moral viewpoint, originating 2000 years ago from a world unlike the world we live in today, someone that has nothing to do with our family. Its cruel, its wrong and there is no justification for it whatsoever.

I think we have to be very careful about campaigning for assisted suicide from the viewpoint of seeing someone else die. Our viewpoint really should not sway the argument, only the person who is going through the problem should have a say. Unfortunately they don’t have a say for very long and can’t really campaign for a change in the law from their own experience.
You have to really be honest with yourself when you say you saw someone suffer and you would want them to have an AS option – is that because you want to feel better yourself and don’t want to see someone else suffer? There’s always going to be a part of you that feels that even when you’ve had clear wishes from the affected person.

I would request that we don’t blame religion wholly for wanting to stop assisted dying. There are many people who are not religious who are against it. I have always been against it and so is my wife. I think we are at a good place where we can let someone die relatively pain free when they choose to stop treatment. AD would always have to add in someone else to facilitate the death in some way which is extremely problematic. If it came in and 1 person was helped to die if they didn’t want it 100% (ie coerced or the decision made for them) then it wouldn’t be worth it. Life is too precious for it to be taken away without your consent.

I do appreciate there are lots of people on this thread who are very much advocates of AD and I don’t wish to upset them but we must all understand that progress is not necessarily bringing in AD. Staying where we are may be the best option for our society, and we don’t want to head off in a direction where we end up regretting what has been adopted, even though it may benefit some people along the way.

I think we are at a good place where we can let someone die relatively pain free when they choose to stop treatment.

If you think that you are kidding yourself. There are two examples directly above where that didn’t happen despite the best efforts of the medical profession.

You have to really be honest with yourself when you say you saw someone suffer and you would want them to have an AS option – is that because you want to feel better yourself and don’t want to see someone else suffer? There’s always going to be a part of you that feels that even when you’ve had clear wishes from the affected person.

I’d call that just having common decency and compassion.

Its about honouring the wishes of the dying person. If they want to keep going to the bitter end then I’d help them do that despite being upset by their suffering. If they’ve had enough and expressed their wish to die (like my sister-in-law did) then they should be assisted in that.

A definite yes for assisted suicide. Having your mum ask you to kill her because the pain is uncontrollable and your parent knows a painful awful death is coming is not a situation I’d wish for anyone to endure. In no way should any religious group bear influence on the law. I’m assuming it’s the evil catholic cult that’s against it and lobbies for no change in the law.

My father went to his GP several years ago complaining about hot flushes. The GP did LFTs and eventually my dad got referred (via tropical medicine and virology) to oncology where he was diagnosed with a pretty aggressive and terminal liver cancer. He fought, had some treatment that showed positive signs for a short while, but he ultimately lost.

He knew he was dying. He was in a lot of pain and discomfort. In the end he died in his bed at home the day before he was due to go to the hospice for a couple of weeks to give my sister some time.

Anyway, long story short; he knew there was no getting better. There was only time and a lot of pain and he did not want that. He had to wait it out and die Oromorph’d up and unconscious. At least it was at his own house and not at hospital, but I know for a fact he wanted it to end. So yes, I support people making a choice. I would have still lost my father, but he would not have had so much pain and fear before the end.

\My Julie would certainly taken the option had it been there. I know this 100%

With the very best of care she still took 4 days to die in the end – mostly pain and fear free but she died of dehydration because she did not drink for those three days

Having seen hundreds of people die I can assure you that a pain free dignified death with your loved ones around you is a rare thing indeed.

Having looked into various other coungtriesin quite some depth there is zero evidence of any malpractice.

b239ftw
You have the right to refuse for you. You do not have the right to refuse for me. And yes – the vast majority of objections are religious based dressed up as something else

I think we are at a good place where we can let someone die relatively pain free when they choose to stop treatment

My sister in law had MS, she got to the point that using the joystick on her electric wheelchair wore her out – this is some one who cycled to Israel and back for her honeymoon, she wasn’t receiving life saving treatment so not opting to go to dignitas when she could still self medicate the lethal drugs would have left her facing 20+ years as a bedridden vegetable. I have been interviewed under caution because I drove them to the airport, so no we are not at a good place.

Some heartbreaking stories on here, and I am very much pro-choice.

But we have to be careful, we are looking at different things I think; appropriate end of life care and decisions about easing and if necessary and wanted speeding that process up. Cases like TJ and Julie, which may be the matter of a few days but why do we have to drag it out even for a few days

And terrible cases like Dickyboy which isn’t in my mind end of life care but is all about quality of life but where life can be prolonged and at least physically, sustainable, for much longer. Frankly, I wouldn’t want to be in that situation, so absolutely I think it’s an individual’s right to choose, but it is a greyer area. How do we treat for example depression which often causes people to end their own lives rather than continue but very much splits opinions….. vs an existence like Dickyboy’s SiL which I think most would accept is a reasonable choice for someone to be able to make.

As I understand it the proposed scottish law change would cover my situation but not Dickyboys and certainly not someone with depression.

Its a very conservative position on assisted death and also would only be self administered.

In the netherlands where physician administered suicide is available pretty much on request there has of course been some edge cases. However there has not been a single case whereby any element of coercion in inappropriate assessment could be seen when you look into it. This simply is not an issue anywhere in the world where they have some form of assisted dying.

the idea that the vulnerable or disabled would be coerced into suicide is a deliberate falsehood put out by the religious right. They know its bogus but its their best attack line.

Well I managed to get on several radio stations to tell my story and to help the cause. also in the sunday times. all really powerful quotes

One day we will have a decent legal framework for this that is suitable for the 21st century

Kudos to you TJ!
like far to many people on here and IRL i have a similar story to tell, probably the most surreal evening ive ever spent is arguing with my late wife about killing her! I’d promised to look after her and make her passing as peaceful and dignified as i could, she was worried that I’d be charged and lose my profession as well as losing her. Fortunately a blood clot meant i didn’t have to, i certainly would have and not had a shred of guilt. my proudest achievement in life is keeping that promise and caring for her to the end.

keep up the fight and stay strong, be kind to yourself

Very much my story. JUlie would have taken assisted dying but refused to come out of hospital unless I promised to stay within the law

I too am proud of what I acheived.

The objections come mainly from the Catholic church.

This is unfair. The C of E also oppose it and actually have some power to stop it in the Lords. I’d presume the majority of other religions also oppose it.

Personally I’m all for euthanasia after seeing one of my grandparents and my wife’s mother pointlessly kept alive with dementia long after they had any quality of life or even recognition of who or where they were.

Personally I’m in favour of it, and would be quite happy to head to Switzerland at end of life. OTOH mrs kcal, former palliative care nurse, is against it (not sure if that’s vehemently or just firmly). In her view, many concerns are valid, and the issues can be alleviated with ‘proper’ palliative care..

Hi Kcal
At the risk of being a bit overbearing I have seen hundreds of people die ( as a palliative care nurse), I have seen loved ones die and I have had a family member activly euthanized

I can assure you that “proper palliative care” only alleviates the indignity of dying by sedating you. Its no substitute for being able to decide your time has come

Julie knew she was dying. We made the very best of her time and she had me a very experienced palliative care nurse with nothing to do but look after her and a very good team of district nurse and palliative care nurses overseeing the care.

She got the very best palliative care but she still had to have a catheter inserted once she became too weak to get to the toilet. she still had periods of pain and distress mercifully short and infrequent

hwer last week was mainly floating away on good drugs but was interspered with periods of poain and fear. she was also in respiritory distress some of the time

What purpose did that last week serve?

The very best palliative care turns dying in this situation from intolerable torture to tolerable but its still unpleasant, undignified and you can NEVER fully eliminate pain and distress

I would love to debate this with her. she is the ON:LY nurse I have ever known of ( apart from the religious) who think its wrong to allow folk some dignity in death

Just to be very clear the bill going before holyrood is only to allow those of sound mind ( certified by two doctors) with less than 6 months to live the ability to take a fatal overdose when they want. No doctor or nurse has to do anything active, the person themselves needs to adminster the overdoes

Absolutly zero chance of any coercion or anything else untoward and also in coutries where much broader euathanisa powers are available the is not a single case with any abuse ever been uncovered

The nonsense about disabled people and so on is a total lie created by the religious right to impose their world view on others. The catholic church and its anti euthanasia organisation “care not killing” actually have this as policy – not to use faith based arguements but to invent secular arguments. Its documented that this is the case and I have seen the briefing document

Care not killing has a leadership that is closely linked to SPUC – that hideous anti abortion organisation

Been holding off posting on this for a few days as it’s a tough subject for me right now.

I think I’m of a stronger position on the subject than a few others (note that’s not a stronger supporter) in that I’d be happy to see a system where people who feel they have outlived their usefulness earlier than the 6 month limit the Scottish Bill is proposing. I’d be happy to have, with the obvious agreed safeguards, a system where people could make the decision without having to be terminally ill. For my situation of not wanting children of my own I wouldn’t really want to live past the point where I can no longer work to earn enough to support myself or become to physically unable to do my hobbies. That could be in my 50/60/70s but when I reach that point I want to be able to say “Thanks everyone!”, have a big party and just leave. Seeing friends and family get old hurts me massively and I don’t want to take that journey myself. Looking after my parents the last year or so has really cemented that in my mind, there’s no way I want to live having to rely on others for everyday things and just be counting the days. I know we’ll never get to that stage, certainly not in my lifetime, so just getting to the level that TJ seems to want would be good enough.

Well I managed to get on several radio stations to tell my story and to help the cause. also in the sunday times. all really powerful quotes

Any particular programmes I can listen to online?

just short clips – a quick quote not a long interview.

One was on smooth radio, one on LBC and another one I don’t know

If you are really interested PM me – I have clips but they are not mine to publish.

I suspect that within your lifetime we will have a much more humane system and one that goes well beyond the very limited scottish proposal. I actually want the dutch system -physician assisted death on request

As of 2021, active human euthanasia is legal in the Netherlands, Belgium, Colombia, Luxembourg, Canada, and Spain. Assisted suicide is legal in Switzerland, Germany, the Australian states of Victoria Northern Territory, and Western Australia.

@reluctantjumper – I think i’m with you on the +6 months side of things.

@tjagain – great work. These things really do add up to make a difference.

To add to that list, the Australian Capital Territory passed a law that has been repealed (i suspect it’s only a matter of time before it’s reintroduced).

In Queensland a bill was introduced in May and by next year will join your list. The term here is “Voluntary Assisted Dying” – I thing that’s a preferable term.

My Father-in-law is Dutch and I believe at least two members of his family have used the system. My aunt is an infirmiere – and has worked a lot in palliative care. She’s made it quite clear that she will be away to Switzerland as required. Especially after what’s happened to her mum.

Five years ago in September i made my last trip to England to see my Nan who was beginning to deteriorate in her early 90s. Depression, dementia were taking hold and she was talking at that point about how she had nothing to live for so would like to let go. She’s been in and out of hospital, including ICU, and made impressive recoveries – still living at home with my granddad acting as carer. When COVID commenced my nan and granddad isolated so well. She had another hospital visit at Christmas and was unwittingly discharged asymptomatic COVID+ (the hospital are unable to explain). My granddad caught it and died a few weeks later. My nan was faced with the option she dreaded. On the way to the nursing home she attempted to jump out of the car on the A1. Tried to grab the steering wheel of my aunt’s hire car and drive them off the road. She took the virus into the home. Who knows what impact that had, and then was unable to see family for however long it was. All the time not wishing to be alive. Months ago she gave up having skype calls with me. She’s now in a wheelchair, largely uncommunicative.

It’s an unremarkable story, I know, but where’s the dignity in all that?

I suspect this year will be the first time i can remember not calling her on her birthday, four days before mine.

Thats tough Reeksy

All I can say is I hope those religious zealots that comprise the vast bulk of the objections rot in their hell for what they have done – the misery and suffering they cause.

Ironically, it was religious zealots (a) that saved my great-grandparents from the genocide that was being attempted on their people (b) by another group of religious zealots (c). Without those religious zealots (a) my Nan wouldn’t have been born to be in a position to be refused the option of dying in the manner of her choosing by further groups of religious zealots (probably a, b, c, x, y, and z)

@reeksy – that was a tough read but it’s exactly the kind of situation I want to avoid, for me and others.

@tjagain – if it’s just short clips then don’t worry about it. I was hoping for a decent interview piece similar to the length of your posts on here.

Appreciate the aim to debate, TJ, I suspect you’re at the strongly held view for advocacy, mrs kcal is likely has come to the conclusion in the opposite view; I’m probably a loosely held view (but then I’ve not been in that close a situation either family or work, obviously).

I’m not sure debate would really achieve much – I’ve not got anywhere other than make my feelings known. I would have to ask her (as former SCH and MC nurse) if views are shared at all.

One important facet of that is always resources, and it’s often lacking – even kit a small lack of resources of any kind can make such a big impact.

No worries Kcal

My very simple view …

I have no objection whatsoever to people wanting to die in dignity after all that is their body and their choice … and this is coming from my “religious” belief that life must be exhausted naturally.

Funny thing is that when I was talking to a colleague about the topic, he is a person of science by the way, he totally objected to the idea of euthanasia … think he was afraid of being put to sleep by someone when he gets older. What sort of logic is that? He wants to live forever?

When you think of how long it took to make ‘presumed consent’ the basis for organ donation in this country, you’d think it might be prescient to start seriously talking about this sort of initiative, and how it would work, asap.

It will happen eventually – how many people will suffer while we talk it out?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/14/bma-drops-opposition-assisted-dying-adopts-neutral-stance

A step in the right direction

It’s a hugely complex set of situations with many potential issues. I don’t think there are many simple answers.

However one thing I definitely object to is in the event of the person receiving care having made no wishes known – the medical team making a decision to cease active treatment.

This nearly happened with my dad, where although he had made his wishes known in the event of resuscitation – where he requested a DNR, he had given no instructions.

Despite this, the consultant took it upon himself to give the instruction to withhold fluids. I countered that instruction and we had another two-weeks where my dad regained full awareness of his situation, was able to clarify that under no circumstances did he want to end his life that way*.

As a result, We had some very valuable and lovely conversations. My dad knew it was the end, but he got the chance to say goodbye to the people he loved.

I cannot say how angry the consultants presumption made me – it didn’t help that he was an arrogant, patronising man with the bedside manner of Josef Mengele.

I honestly don’t know what would have happened if the consultant had got his way, but despite normally being a non-violent man, I think I would have likely been arrested.

Having been in potentially high-risk situations and having a life-limiting diagnosis, I have made my decisions clear and documented them.

*My dad had provided end of life care to a significant number of people in his professional life. He also knew what the end of life through dehydration was like – and considered it an inhumane end.

End of life thru dehydration is actually a much debated issue in end of life care with good research both ways

i suspect Julie died of dehydration at the end. Most people do Dehydration and pressure sores is what actually ends life for most people ( Julie had no sores)

IMO putting a drip in someone in end of life care simply increases the length of time they spend dying. Oral fluids should only be stopped if the person has a high risk swallow ie chokes and even then a patient can insist on taking the risk of choking. the patients wishes are paramount

IME all hospital admission where end of life could be an issue now have an advanced care plan put in place. Its remiss of that medical team not to have ascertained his wishes – badly so

Would you really want all patients who have not signaled their choices to be treated fully? Off to ITU and ventilated?

However you are spot on about decision making. That action by the consultant would be sailing very close to if not over the legal edge in Scotland. Here it is clear that the wishes of the person are paramount and a decent medical team should be ascertaining this – from the person or from the persons family and treat accordingly

I have fought for patients both ways – both for their right to be treated and for their right to be oblivious and out quickly

I think you have a very balanced view TJ and certainly more informed than me. I can only speak for the situations I have found myself in and what I want for myself.

Thats all you can do Jami. Clear decisions for you and your loved ones and make sure you know their wishes. You were 100% right to fight for your dad as you knew what he wanted. Its not about what we( family or professionals) want – the only consideration is what the patient wants

I am not really balanced – I am so angry about this ( and was before Julie died) but try to not come over as a ranting zealot!

My sister is a hospice nurse.
She’s all for assisted dying. Her take on it is that it’s happening to everyone so you might as well make it as good a death as you can.

Hi again folks

for those of yo in Scotland there is a private members bill going thru parliament right now and Sturgeon has softened her attitude to it

Can I ask all supporters of assisted dying to lobby their MSPs, Sturgeon and Yousaf and there is a daily record article to comment on

I bet you can spot my contribution 🙂

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-open-legalising-assisted-26859809?fbclid=IwAR3Hj4UbKDW19-f-RddWCkVVj9lCwi_0qaMD9vKiGmtVujb8oZtPGmhbrRg

*emotional manipulation ahead warning* 🙂

Yesterday was one year since Julie died. To honour her memory I made another round of lobbying to MSPs and to Sturgeon to support the assisted dying bill currently in front of the scots parliament.

Once again I ask all of you who live in Scotland and support “assisted dying” to write to your MSPs with your support for the bill. There is concerted lobbying going on from both sides of this but the more support for assisted dying that arrives in MSPs post bags the more chance we have of this becoming law.

I think the first contact with MSPs and the first minister is best done via snail mail

All letters need your full name and full address as MSPs only answer for their own constituents.

This is the consultation paper on the bill. The consultation is now closed but I think it gives a good explanation of what is proposed
https://www.parliament.scot/-/media/files/legislation/proposed-members-bills/assisted-dying-for-terminally-ill-adults-scotland-consultation-2021-final.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2uPBHFZK78jbpqQRKKTQJHXnCaSjdYQ0F9WuKr2ihpVUO5TJZu52KCJKc

This is the dignity in Dying report. It makes for hard reading
https://features.dignityindying.org.uk/inescapable-truth-scotland/?fbclid=IwAR3do_vz6R6Prqjd5W6jGX2BnGSldY3G4mly5Sm7pm2d87pE0-7w9PCBhpw#:~:text=In%20research%20commissioned%20for%20this,final%20three%20months%20of%20their

You can find your MSPs here
https://www.parliament.scot/msps/?fbclid=IwAR0brkdhwyfw2uS-lJnHdRAbv-KmraBHAzUufitTULzijVosKu6tO05umTY

This is the Dignity in Dying website with links to a petition
https://www.dignityindying.org.uk/?fbclid=IwAR1QcKfNE-BGUNyh5SbURojX3ZgRG91czin-VREmVFLjiB1NeSRN0PY56Og

Those against these measures are well organised and are constantly making false allegations about these proposals and are attempting to manipulate folk into supporting their position using bogus arguments. We need as many supporters as possible to show their support. Please do to prevent others having to face what Julie ( and others) faced in her last week.

I am not going to publish the letters I have written here because quite honestly they will be upsetting for many but if anyone wants to see them off forum then feel free to PM me.

Letters are best written using personal examples delivered in a non emotional way but detailing the emotional and physical distress both the dying person and those around them faced and how assisted dying could stop that distress. If anyone wants some assistance in writing letters I am more than happy to help.

Please take this step and please lobby your MSPs. Do it in Julies memory and in memory of your own loved ones

Thanks