Coed y Brenin (NRW job cuts)

It seems at the heart of this, is the myopic British view that each individual thing has to make money (or at least not lose it) in its own right

Agreed. The cost of everything and value of nothing cliche applies.  That is kind of the problem NRW is confronting. On a UK or even Wales level It’s core revenue funding is a pittance. It needs more

I think possibly it would be better for a private enterprise to mayby run the centre and trails – simplify the buildings and invest in the trails.

Coed Y Brenin and Nant yr Arian are so much more than just MTB centres, they were purposely developed that way.  NYA has the Red Kite breeding/feeding/protection scheme that has been a roaring success and CYB has morphed into an Events Hub and Community space.  A lot of this was possible due to EU funding, both for the setup costs and the expansion in recent years.  Both the Pump Track at NYA and the new bike shop and open space above only happened thanks to EU Objective 1 and 2 funding.  These were promised to be matched by Johnson and Co upon us leaving but it never happened, hence the big shortfalls now occurring.

I don’t have any answers about how both centres can survive in their current guises but whatever happens they need to continue in some capacity that supports the local economies, whether that’s on a monetary level or just as places for exercise and relaxation.  Neither have the capacity to become something like the centre at FOD though, they just don’t have the population density around them to make it work.  Pedalabikeaway really does thrive on locals using it regularly through the week and on the late evenings they do, the weekend traffic is more of a bonus (although a stressful one!).  If they expanded to cater for the weekend footfall comfortably then they would end up facing the high running costs that NYA and CYB have too.  FOD is able to sustain a massive offering running from former railway loops to uplifted DH tracks, multiple walking trails and even a Heritage Railway due to it’s location.  North Wales just doesn’t have all of that in such a small area, it’s all spread out separated by a patchwork road network.  The comments above about ‘Knowing the phe price of everything but the value of nothing’ really does ring true in the current situation NRW find themselves in.

reluctantjumper
Full Member

The comments above about ‘Knowing the phe price of everything but the value of nothing’ really does ring true in the current situation NRW find themselves in.

That’s really the problem isn’t it, NRW have to pay the price of everything and get back so little of the value, and there’s no real process or structure to make that work. Public organisations should be able to work with that but they need to be funded and resourced and directed properly for it to happen.

Seems to be confusion between visitor centre and cafe.
The visitor centre sells maps, tat and takes your money when the carpark machine is broken, I wont miss these.
The cafes offer refreshments, might miss these but at the moment the cafes at these sites are a bit pants so hope this brings a better place to spend money after a ride.

So what makes UK riders/families NEED a visitor centre?

That’s a trick question, right?
Your <shrug> shows your complete disregard and indifference to what most ordinary people actually want on a day out, especially families. America covers a vast area, by comparison to the U.K., so it’s hopelessly unrealistic to expect more than a car parking area, and maybe a water source. The U.K. generally speaking, has a lot more people close to places such as these, so providing facilities for a family day out, with the trails available for kids to enjoy as well as those for more experienced riders, would seem to be a no brainer.

However, there are plenty of people in local and national governments, and on here, it seems, who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. <shrug>

CYB cafe is built already and the design is fantastic, with beautiful views, food was also excellent. What is the rent to the cafe for it to lose that much, staff costs, food costs. It should be a draw for miles around, I’d stop there for a coffee if I was driving that way before I’d go into Dolgellau. Is there free 1/2 hour parking for this? That place should be profitable.

CYB cafe is built already and the design is fantastic, with beautiful views, food was also excellent. What is the rent to the cafe for it to lose that much, staff costs, food costs. It should be a draw for miles around, I’d stop there for a coffee if I was driving that way before I’d go into Dolgellau. Is there free 1/2 hour parking for this? That place should be profitable.

It could be profitable I’m sure.  But as far as I understand, margins on cafes aren’t huge when run unencumbered by a large corporate entity… so when you add in the extra costs that are baked into an organisation like NRW I suspect it may be subsidised rather than profitable at the moment.

I know other orgs who manage sites (NT, Welsh Water, etc) do run cafes.  I wonder if they are at least self funding?

I’m not making excuses for NRW and I am gutted for the people whose posts are under threat…  But NRW is complex and very diverse.  That is kind of adds costs to any single activity. Most organisations that run cafes and visitor centres are not also charged with issuing marine licences for off shore wind farms, undertaking enforcement for illegal dumping of hazardous waste, preventing the flooding of low lying cities and producing and marketing timber on 13% of a county’s land area whilst making sure the timber is produced alongside a host of other seemingly incompatible activities in the forest.  And that’s only the half of it.

I hope that the building at CyB will be looked after and made available for someone to take on and run a great cafe and employ local people and make it a great place to work.  For those currently employed there it won’t be the same though. I wonder what will happen to that pristine retro Stumpjumper in the centre.

I’ve only been to CYB a couple of times on holiday last year. I went the first time on my own to scope it out and took sandwiches as normally anywhere like that is michelin starred restaurant money for a bacon sarnie. I was surprised at how reasonable the prices were to the extent I thought they should put them up a bit! and though the food wasn’t amazing it looked absolutely fine for a muddy mtb and his family on a day out. The trails were good fun and a couple of days later I brought my family – my wife and one daughter had a fantastic (signed so no real maps needed, ideal for them) walk whilst me and the other daughter did a trail. As we took longer they sat in the cafe and had a coffee etc whilst we enjoyed more trails.

All in all the whole family had a fantastic day out – my wife and daughter would almost certainly not have come if there wasn’t the infrastructure to have a couple of coffee’s and go into the VC and check out the various walks that could be done, work out which one was the best for them based on viewpoints and time available and know there were toilets, refreshments etc when they got back.

Yes we go hiking in the proper countryside too but then its obviously more of a thing with planning etc having to be done in advance and crucially my wife wouldn’t do that on her own or with my daughter.

My impression after both sessions was ‘blimey that wasn’t very expensive for some lovely groomed trails’ (which are not normally my thing) Can’t remember parking price so it must have been lowish.

In reply to gowerboy:

(For context, I’m a long time lurker, that doesn’t work for NRW, I’m always disappointed by how overgrown and poorly maintained the trail centers are, and with this recent round of redundancies, wanted to work out if they were underfunded or incompetent, excuse the obviously AI generated report, but the conclusions are mostly accurate. Even on a population ratio, they should be getting 202mn, which would be equivalent to at least the 13mn shortfall)

# Report: Analysis of Natural Resources Wales Funding in Comparison to English Counterparts

## Executive Summary

This report analyzes the funding of Natural Resources Wales (NRW) in comparison to its English counterparts, specifically the Environment Agency (EA), Forestry Commission (FC), and relevant portions of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA). The analysis reveals a significant underfunding of NRW relative to the land area it manages, suggesting that NRW cannot reasonably be expected to deliver on its remit at the same level as its English counterparts given its current budget constraints.

## 1. Introduction

Natural Resources Wales (NRW) is responsible for managing the environment and natural resources of Wales, a role that combines functions handled by separate agencies in England. This report examines whether NRW’s funding is commensurate with its responsibilities, particularly in relation to land management.

## 2. Methodology

We compared NRW’s budget to the combined budgets of the Environment Agency, Forestry Commission, and a portion of DEFRA’s budget that aligns with NRW’s responsibilities. We then calculated proportional budgets based on population and land area ratios between Wales and England.

## 3. Data and Calculations

### 3.1 Budget Information (2022/23)

– NRW: £182 million

– EA: £1.4 billion

– FC: £103.2 million

– DEFRA: £7.2 billion (30% considered relevant: £2.16 billion)

### 3.2 Comparative Ratios

– Population ratio (Wales/England): 0.0554 (5.54%)

– Land area ratio (Wales/England): 0.1594 (15.94%)

### 3.3 Combined English Budget for Comparison

EA + FC + 30% of DEFRA = £3.6632 billion

### 3.4 Proportional Budget Calculations

– Based on population: £202.94 million

– Based on land area: £583.91 million

## 4. Analysis

### 4.1 Budget Comparison

NRW’s actual budget (£182 million) is:

– 10.3% lower than the population-based estimate

– 68.8% lower than the land area-based estimate

### 4.2 Land Management Focus

Given NRW’s significant land management responsibilities, the land area-based comparison is particularly relevant. NRW is operating with less than one-third (31.2%) of the budget that would be allocated based on land area.

### 4.3 Operational Challenges

With a budget significantly lower than what land area proportions would suggest, NRW faces substantial challenges in delivering services comparable to its English counterparts, particularly in:

– Environmental protection

– Forestry management

– Flood risk management

– Conservation and biodiversity efforts

### 4.4 Wales-Specific Factors

– Higher proportion of rural and protected areas requiring intensive management

– Unique environmental challenges (e.g., ex-industrial land remediation)

– Integrated structure requiring management of diverse responsibilities

## 5. Findings

1. Severe Underfunding: NRW is severely underfunded when compared to its English counterparts, particularly considering the land area it manages.

2. Unrealistic Expectations: It is unrealistic to expect NRW to deliver on its full remit at the same level as English agencies given the current funding disparity.

3. Land Management Impact: The funding shortage is likely to have the most significant impact on land management activities, which are resource-intensive and crucial for environmental protection.

4. Operational Strain: The integrated nature of NRW, while potentially efficient, may be under severe strain due to the breadth of responsibilities coupled with limited funding.

## 6. Conclusions

Based on the analysis of actual budgets and calculated proportions, it is evident that Natural Resources Wales is significantly underfunded compared to its English counterparts. The disparity is particularly stark when considering the land area NRW is responsible for managing.

The current funding level of NRW, at approximately one-third of what would be allocated based on land area, makes it implausible for the organization to deliver on its full remit at a level comparable to English agencies. This underfunding is likely to result in:

1. Reduced capacity for comprehensive land management

2. Limitations on environmental protection initiatives

3. Challenges in meeting all statutory obligations

4. Potential long-term environmental and economic costs due to underinvestment

@mikeayles. Interesting analysis thanks.

We were at CyB yesterday to ride. The beat is still a great loop if you skip some of the fire road sections. The carpark was full. However by 3pm the cafe had nothing to sell and was empty with people using their tables for picnics rather than the non offering from the cafe. The parking system was wasn’t working so the lady at the visitor centre desk told me it was free as a result. No wonder it’s in a mess financially. We expected to pay for parking and would have enjoyed a coffee and snack. As a result the £25-30 we would have spent we didn’t.

I think that there’s a lot of ‘special pricing’ going against NRW/CyB. I’ve heard that the roof needs fixing there – and they’ve been quoted a million quid to fix it. Now if you were a commercial roofer and a government agency asked you for a quote, I’d reckon that a round million it what you might start at, regardless of cost. The thing that the community group is trying to suggest is ‘Hey, let us take the car park money and we’ll get everything fixed – the roof, the trails, the cafe’ – and I imagine that a community group asking a local roofer for a quote would result in a far more competitive quote. The same goes for the cafe where, (so I’ve heard, feel free to discount this) the staff handling sharp items (ie kitchen knives) need to have passed NRW’s general ‘working with blades’ qualification which normally is about chainsaws and axes… so there’s no one allowed to do more than cut a pasty in half. There’s not enough money for trail maintenance, yet local groups are prohibited from working in the forest to fix them themselves as they’re not qualified… I don’t think NRW is doing itself any favours, presumably as there are more managers managing things from afar, rather than forestry people who know how everything works.

By coincidence, I have Sian and Dafydd staying with me this week, so I shall quiz them…

Thats a great analysis which shows the broader issue of inequality we face in the UK. It certainly gives weight to the argument that NRW/we should be lobbying for better funding from central government.

For me , it’s a question of using the right tool for the job. The cafe should be put out to tender (like the bike shop). Its a business, so best operated as such. NRW need to focus on setting the tenders, taking responsibility for public provision of leisure and ownership of the land/forest. What I think is really missing are the managers and maintainers in-between. Daf & sian did a great job of starting it off. What we need are people and resources (community or NRW?) who will bring life to the enterprise day-to-day. That means making sure the parking works, maintaining the facilities, fixing the roof and grooming the trails. Maybe even encouraging other, more diverse activities. It would be a tragedy to pass on the opportunity.

By coincidence, I have Sian and Dafydd staying with me this week, so I shall quiz them…

Say Hi for me. 🙂

Your <shrug> shows your complete disregard and indifference to what most ordinary people actually want on a day out, especially families.

Eh? The North American model just means that visitors to an area go to the local community for this stuff where, generally, multiple services are available. This has been a life-blood for MANY ex-logging towns or other towns which were decimated when their local industry shut down.

So, the local town’s provide food, accommodation, bike shops, other useful services as well as other touristy stuff to do.

In reality, all those visitors to CyB cafe etc are just capturing trade which otherwise would have/should have gone to Dolgellau*.

Sure, the cafe will employee some locals and, if this was privately run, then the business owner (alone) will make some profit but that increase in incoming funds could benefit multiple business owners if visitors are directed into the town centre.

And for those maintaining the cafe could be profitable, well, it seems history has proven to doesn’t get enough trade (for whatever reason) and that it’s questionable whether it’s worthwhile…

* It’s been at least 20 years since I was last in Dolgellau. I seem to remember car parking wasn’t great so if that’s still the case, maybe the town needs to fix that first and make the town more welcoming to visitors. Happy to be corrected!

I get to encounter many sides of NRW and there does seem to be a massive lack of funding combined with a general government way of working that is more costly as it is trying to do the best thing whilst strangling itself in processes.

The organisation has barely recovered from its last organisational review and it’s now going through another. Good staff eventually leave through frustration, some are reallocated into roles they have no idea about and many other roles remain vacant or scrapped. They are gradually being stripped back to the bare statutory requirements.
There are whole processes that can be completed in England before even getting a first acknowledgement in Wales.

I visited CYB a few weeks ago for the 1st time as part of a Welsh MTB road trip. I thought it was the best trail centre I’ve been to apart from the cafe. We went in for lunch after riding black bull (which was awesome) and there were no pastries or pasties left, some really sad prepacked sandwiches in a chiller and the only cooked food was bacon or sausage or egg roll or beans on toast. We had planned to sit and have a decent lunch whilst using the free ebike chargers.

I hope they can sort things out and don’t lose any of the facilities.

Are we all agreed by what we mean by visitor centre?

CYB has a visitor centre plus cafe, toilets, bike shop and i think bike wash . Llandegla has a shop, cafe, toilet and bikebike wash. But no visitor centre

I’m not saying in right here just looking for clarity

That looks right to me. ⬆️

Does FoD have a visitor centre? I wouldn’t consider PABA to fit the description.

FoD has much better trails than CyB and are constantly improving and maintaining those trails, plus so much off-piste that I doubt I’ll ever ride all of it.

As for paying to ride, that’s exactly what happens at ‘Degla and it’s always busy there. Having said that, I wouldn’t pay to ride at CYB with its current trails.

I’ve heard that the roof needs fixing there

It does look quite fancy, which can’t be helping things. A simpler more normal building which can earn its own upkeep would have done, forget the indulgent eco design crap.

imagine that a community group asking a local roofer

I imagine NRW would need to engage a specialist firm who can demonstrate experience of similar projects, and who is willing to go through all the hurdles to become an approved supplier etc. Cue a whole team with equipment coming from somewhere in England every week to do the job, staying in hotels, travelling back for the weekend.

staff handling sharp items (ie kitchen knives) need to have passed NRW’s general ‘working with blades’ qualification which normally is about chainsaws and axes

Send them on a course probably at least 50 miles away, by an approved supplier, needs at least one night away from home, travel expenses, chargeback to the NRW office bod organising it, …

presumably as there are more managers managing things from afar

I bet a good share of the £350k yearly loss goes on this. Few percent of various office staff costs attributed to each visitor centre.

The centre will probably be better off run by a CIC who know what people actually want and can deliver it in a more efficient way.

Bet NRW will retain the parking money though.

This popped up on my news feed earlier:

https://www.wired.com/story/bike-park-wales-rewilding-private-sector-finance/

Fair play. Shows what can be done with the right people behind it and no public sector limitations.

The decision has been made to close the cafes and shops:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0lp4x1jwn9o.amp

that’s a shame

from a selfish viewpoint – anyone know what is happening (or not happening) with the trails?

from a selfish viewpoint – anyone know what is happening (or not happening) with the trails?

They’ll remain as they are.

It’s a shame the Cafe’s and Centres will close, mostly because of the staff losing their jobs.

I’m not surprised though, they’re generally not great. Someone mentioned EU funding above. Yes a lot of the newer centres got built with EU funds, you’d think with an effectively free building you could run a cafe at a profit, but it’s not the case. It’s seems a symptom of EU / Public funded facilities, they will invest in grand, usually too large buildings but because funding is usually a one-off thing, there’s no money to run or maintain them.

IME the Cafe’s, I’ll say it how I feel it, they’re crap. Service is slow and unenthusiastic; I don’t expect to be waited on, but usually you queue for ages, you pay, they mumble something, you fetch your own grubby cutlery and 20-60 mins later some bland looking, cold food it brought to you. Service with a frown. It’s not exactly cheap either. I don’t blame the staff, you can’t actively recruit ‘miserable **** to work in a Cafe’, it has to be a product of the working environment.

Alternatively, Llandegla Cafe is lovely, it’s loud and rowdy, the food is great and you might wait for it a while, but because it’s busy. Same with the FOD TC cafe. It’s a nice place to be.

Moreso, MTB riding is changing. NRW are now more willing to work with local riding groups to grant licences for ‘wild trail maintenance’. Cwmcarn is still very busy, mostly because of Risca BP, that’s not hyperbole, Strava / Trailforks show that more people ride more KMs on the Wild Trails than they do on the official trails there. Riders can choose to ride Twrch for the 100th time, complain how worn out it is, or overgrown, or ride Wacko Jacko, it’s probably changed since you rode it last, it’s maintained constantly. NRW put up a gate about a week ago to discourage riders entering the park area. It took them about 4 days to create a short new trail to avoid it and keep everyone safe and happy.  Afan on the other hand, it’s dead. BPW soak up the weekender crowd and the trails are generally in a shit state.