Coed y Brenin (NRW job cuts)

Sad times but hopefully the local community groups will get chance to take them over.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/job-cut-talks-top-eryri-29660235

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c727p05p8dpo

Looks like its happening at Nant y arian as well, trails will still be supported but no centre, beyond toilet and car park

Any word on what proportion of the £13m and 265 jobs is saved by the 3 visitor centres?

I have to say that I don’t think that either the Nant Yr Arian or the Coed Y Brenin visitor centre are particularly good.

Any word on what proportion of the £13m and 265 jobs is saved by the 3 visitor centres?

Good question! You’d hope they weren’t employing nearly three hundred people in the three VC’s!

On a slight tangent, and huge thread hijack…

Could anyone recommend somewhere to stay near the centre of Dolgellau for 3-4 bikers (with bikes)? We are planning a trip in October, so doing our best to help the CyB economy.

I would have thought the cafe would be a profit centre, rather than a cost. If they aren’t then I would be looking to make changes to improve the offer to visitors to make it profitable

Remember when the cafe at CyB was leased out and people made a living out of it.

really sad that NRW have stacked failure on failure.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/N4yeUBS8fzZ7hRVr/?mibextid=WC7FNe

coummity group set up FB

I would have thought the cafe would be a profit centre, rather than a cost. If they aren’t then I would be looking to make changes to improve the offer to visitors to make it profitable

You would hope that was the rationale for building in the first place, based on forest usage at the time, rather than forecast usage.

Just shows how long it is since I went to CyB there wasnt even a visitors centre there when I last went, just a car park.

Now I less than 1hr away I was hoping to go more often. Will the trails still be maintained?

NRW are a disgrace. Just like the Welsh government.

I have to say that I don’t think that either the Nant Yr Arian or the Coed Y Brenin visitor centre are particularly good.

Before the genius welsh government closed down Wales in covid and at times without any good reason as they went insane with that particular power trip, Coed y brenin was extremely busy.

To make a mess of that place to such an extent it has to close takes some doing.

I have to say that I don’t think that either the Nant Yr Arian or the Coed Y Brenin visitor centre are particularly good.

Fair comment, but the solution has to be to make them better or lease them to someone who can, not just get rid of them.  Even a sub-optimal visitor centre is better than none at all.

Even a sub-optimal visitor centre is better than none at all.

Not sure why CyB needs a visitors centre? Its some where you go to ride a bike/walk/run etc.

I bike wash and showers would be useful.

Dolgellau is only 20 mins away.

You’re right, it doesn’t “need” one, but it makes the experience a bit more pleasant if you’ve travelled any distance. I’ve ridden at CyB before with my non cycling wife in tow and she’s been able to have a walk and and a coffee whilst I ride. It would have been a much harder sell without the facilities! I see plenty of other family groups there in the same situation.

Same at Nant yr Arian. I have met my son there for a ride and it’s great to have somewhere for a brew and cake after before we depart in different directions. Mtbing can be a minimalist, hair shirt experience, but it doesn’t have to be.

Sad, but I’m with @FunkyDunc……not sure what purpose the visitor centre serves? Happy to pay to park etc, even to ride if it helped support trail maintenance. Just not really sure what’s to be gained from a visitors centre? Same with other trail centres.

Any word on what proportion of the £13m and 265 jobs is saved by the 3 visitor centres?

Small percentage, lots of people in other areas of NRW having having their roles removed from the structure in these proposals. Some places where two teams will be merged into one, with the team members having to interview against each other for the remaining jobs. Not going pleasant.

NRW are a disgrace. Just like the Welsh government.

Not that I’m defending NRW, I know their failings better than most, but a majority of their funding comes from Welsh Government, and NRW doesn’t get enough funding to do what the public expects. Lots of WG funding comes from UK government.

To those asking about the point of a visitor centre; I work with disabled riders, and having somewhere with appropriate toilets, change / washing facilities, ability to get food and drink, park and have appropriate trails is depressingly difficult to find. CyB isn’t perfect and I’d agree there’s plenty of opportunity to improve the offer, but certainly for the people I work with it would be a huge loss.

I think there’s a perception amongst some on here that CyB should revolve around the needs of hardcore mountain bikers, riding solo or with like minded mates.  This is understandable to a degree given the nature of this forum, but CyB is also used by families with young kids, older people or others with reduced mobility who want to go for a walk or as @riklegge points out above, the disabled.  Whilst you gnarly shredders might be happy to piss in the woods and survive on protein bars from your pockets not everyone else is!

NyA has a wide range of visitors. There are walking, running and horse riding trails too as well as the very popular red kite feeding. Not just mountain bikers. It’s quite a nice visitor centre and there isn’t much else nearby so it should be possible to make some money there. Shame to lose it.

Interestingly the FoD visitor centre is always busy. Car park full and all cafe table occupied. I’d say its not as nice a visitor centre but maybe has better facilities. Is it more down to location, not quite so middle of nowhere?

Personally, a visitors centre is essential if there are no facilities near by. I.e. a loo as a minimum, and it’s an added bonus if there is a cafe – CYB and Llandegla are the only main MTB centres I’ve been to but we always make sure we have something to eat there. Quick brew before lap two. Also it’s great for those with families too.  It’s such a shame as these places are fantastic.

Cyb one is losing £350k a year.

How the heck I don’t know.

Near the bottom here:

Coed-y-Brenin and Bwlch Nant yr Arian at Risk ?

Here’s the Singletrack article about it (from me!):

Is NRW About To Close Coed Y Brenin?

Not sure why CyB needs a visitors centre?

At the weekend in the summer, its swarming with families all either walking or tottering about on bikes having a great day out, it’s great to see, and the visitor centre is pretty much central to that offer. Kids can get fed and/or take shelter if the rain starts, there’s a great play area, the view is nice, and there’s a wee shop to poke about it.

I think the plan is to put the cafes out to tender, which is better IMO as they are commercially viable and there’s no public service remit. I believe there are some building problems at CyB which account for a lot of costs.

It would be worth having a North Wales development manager, to my mind. Employed by NRW to encourage greater/wider use of the Forest e.g. promoting Woodland craft courses, Nature watching, MTB skills, community groups etc. Doesn’t have to be profitable. The key is just getting people to visit.

@andrewreay Plas Isa in Dolgellau is very good. B+B

Plas Isa in Dolgellau is very good. B+B

Perfect. Thanks

CyB should revolve around the needs of hardcore mountain bikers, riding solo or with like minded mates.

Made me laugh 🙂

I ain’t never seen me no hardcore mountain bikers at CYB…or at least I didn’t recognise them as such. It’s great for families, stress free bimbles and chilling.

think the plan is to put the cafes out to tender, which is better IMO as they are commercially viable and there’s no public service remit. I believe there are some building problems

So basically they’re trying to go back to exactly what it was when it was Red Bull etc and Sian and Daffyd’s little cafe across the road. Before they threw them out and said “mine, mine all mine. Get out”

***S

PS. Apologies. I can’t recall their actual names

Just an observation:

I’ve ridden and hiked at MANY different “trails centres” in US and Canada.

There, they’ll clear enough space for car parking and install a vault toilet and map/notice board. Occasionally, there’ll be a picnic table. And that’s it.

No cafe, changing rooms, shop or spares/repairs.

You’ll see plenty of families out riding or hiking or whatever.

So what makes UK riders/families NEED a visitor centre?

<Shrug>

I don’t know for sure – i’m making an educated guess about the cafe tender (saves on staff, guaranteed income each year). There seems to be a lot of speculation about a private company coming in to ‘take over’ and buy the CyB visitor centre, then presumably charge for trail access, or be compelled to offer it (public access) as part of a deal. Whichever, it seems obvious NRW are looking to balance their budget.

CYB hasn’t been interested in mountain bike riders as we would recognise them for years. It’s all about family days out in the woods. A half decent offering in the cafe should make slot of money

then presumably charge for trail access

I can’t see that flying. With so many better, free to ride trail centres around these days. CyB was great in it’s day, but things have moved on. If I’m paying to ride, I want an uplift so BPW, Antur Stiniog etc. I don’t mind paying for parking or spending in the cafe (whilst it’s there) but not for trail use when there are plenty of better free options available

It comes down to the same thing every time… Trail centres make money for everyone but the people who build and run the trail centres.

And on top of that, the people who benefit most from them (and the councils that benefit most from that) are so completely used to having a goose that lays golden eggs, that nobody ever thinks to feed it. It’s an outrage if it ever lays less eggs of course but even then nobody believes they’ll have to do without it.

I honestly wonder sometimes if what we need might be a disaster. Imagine a huge winter storm pours down the tweed valley and blows all of of glentress and innerleithen and the golfy flat. Nightmare for us and a nightmare for the local economy but maybe at least it’d make people pay attention for once as all those visitors vanish overnight.

On-site services ought to be a way to reverse the flow there a bit and take advantage of that semi-captive market. Who doesn’t like a cake after a ride? And bike hire and repair and emergency parts are all really obvious. But it seems like we get it wrong as often as we get it right. There’s definitely that common british desire for a “flagship building”, and again the funding model is messed up and there’s millions available for a vanity project and 50p available for trails. (and no benefit to turning down the millions, it just goes elsewhere) Would CYB be better served with a couple of basic buildings, a really visible accessible shop and cafe that’s cheaper to run but also drives business into it better? Yeah probably.

(we’re off to the forest of dean next week and every time I go there I’m just reminded how brilliant a visitor’s centre can be when it’s done right. I mean, it’s barely fit for purpose, the kitchen’s overflowing, there’s barely enough benches, on a wet day there’s nothing like enough roof space but even then it’s a hubbub. And on a nice day, sitting outside shovelling food down your face before one last run, while kids ride around on balance bikes and everyone from downhillers to first timers rubs shoulders, it’s absolutely brilliant)

I work with disabled riders, and having somewhere with appropriate toilets, change / washing facilities, ability to get food and drink, park and have approp

@riklegge is Delamere on your list as they have all of the above and recently put in 6 short sections of blue. Bike hire available from the shop. Happy to show you around if you’re not familiar with it.

I’ve been going to CyB on and off for about 30 years. The new visitor centre has always felt like a Grand Designs style over ambitious, over budget, pushy committee member’s power trip.

But there again I’m happy with a car park, a cold water tap and a tree to have a slash behind.

Hi @shinton

Yes, Delamere is an option, I grew up fairly nearby and know it reasonably well. Thanks for the offer though!

There are a handful of suitable trail centres around, it’s just frustrating when one of the (limited) options seems to be closing.

Wasn’t it European money which funded most of the early Welsh trail centres?

I seem to remember there being plenty of money for initial funding of such projects but the EU never (?) provided funds for on-going maintenance. The expectation was that any ongoing costs would be picked up “locally”

That’s nearly always the case and an easy trap to fall into. My only criticism of modern bike parks is the vast amount of maintenance required . However, they are commercially run (ok, probably not making a fortune) and massive jumps are popular! CyB is public property, so it can be more experimental. I’m just of the opinion its better to expand out of a crisis, than contract. The centres represent a small cost relative to NRW’s overall expenditure. So really if more revenue options were encouraged, a flat £5 visit fee per person or a national recreation fund from the NHS budget are tried, then it may stay open.

There’s a great campsite with rooms too just half a mile from the visitor centre

Home

Before the genius welsh government closed down Wales in covid and at times without any good reason as they went insane with that particular power trip, Coed y brenin was extremely busy.

To make a mess of that place to such an extent it has to close takes some doing.

It’s not just NRW.  I worked for a major  multinational and a reverse take over turned a business that was profitable each year for 25 years and grew from £5m to £50m turnover and 6x the staff, into a big loss maker in under 2 years.

The common factors are

– incompetence

-arrogance

– not giving a shit, especially about customers

NRW are a disgrace.

Easy to say… and I don’t want to be an apologist for NRW… but it can’t increase revenue unless it is given more core funding, it can’t carry cash over from one year to the next, it can’t borrow money, it can’t increase charges for the activities that are chargeable (like permits) and the price of timber is volatile and outside its control.  So… given flat funding and inflationary pressures something has to give.  The whole process will be painful form many NRW staff.  I guess there are a few on this forum.

It’s a real shame that NRW will withdraw from much of the visitor centre activity.  People comment that they should turn a profit… but most catering or visitor centre businesses don’t make loads of cash and if they do turn a profit, they do so because they are independent and flexible in how they operate and they often pay minimum wages to catering assistants type roles.  A public sector organisation can’t really work that way.  When it had the cash  NRW could subsidise the centres because they add value to its activities and sites.  But NRW is skint so has to retreat somewhat and prioritise the activities it is legally bound to carry out.

I hope that someone will take over and make a go of the visitor centres.  Whilst I generally keep away from honey pots,  I really like CyB and it would be great to see it thrive.

It seems at the heart of this, is the myopic British view that each individual thing has to make money (or at least not lose it) in its own right  – and never consider the cost as part of a ‘bigger picture’ – like how it brings in money, in terms of accomodation, eating etc   into what otherwise is a dead area.

It’s the same with public transport –  why we have  shit infrastructure and a broken public transport system.

And same with health – both physical and mental – its seen as nothing but a abhorent cost, rather than something that makes the population better and therefore the wider economy more productive.

Same with education.

Etc etc etc.

It’s why the economy is fecked and the GDP per capita is no higher now than 16 years ago.