Clever logo… (well I thought so anyway)

does anyone think there is any point to this anymore?

No, but you’ll no doubt press on regardless.

the ‘point’ stoppped on about page 2 when iot became clear there was never going to be any ‘agreement’ and it descended into ‘so what you’re saying is…’.

Dr J – I do not make purcheses in that way. The factors I use to make a decision are absent from your scenario. therefore I canmake no answer

The thing is, TJ, that I already know the answer to the question – if I am to believe that you honestly state your philosophy. You said that you ignore branding, so you must logically purchase the no-name post as it is 1 penny cheaper. It is interesting that you are so bashful about following your own stated philosophy to its logical conclusion.

Graham- there is still a huge significant point I have tried to make that you seem unable to grasp.

teh brand is not the company, the object is not the brand. It is possible to look beyond what something is branded as to see what it is.

Actually I’m pretty sure I just agreed to this.

I certainly just agreed to the second bit: that I think everyone occasionally tries to disregard the brand and instead attempts to select products on a purely objective merit basis and that this approach is often useful.

My only caveat was that I suspect most people are open to the idea that brand “the company responsible for producing the product” can directly alter the likely merits of the product.

For the first bit: “teh brand is not the company”. Mmm.. that bit I’m less convinced by but I’d need a better definition of what you mean.

If you are simply saying there is a difference between the shiny marketed image of a company and what really happens behinds the scenes then obviously I would agree.

does anyone think there is any point to this anymore?

Yes, you need to answer the questions which people have been asking you, so that you can clarify your stance, it’s no good just repeating it.

So some of yuo keep asserting. Some of us deny it. No evidence has been offered merely an attempt to shout me down.

What evidence would you like? What evidence could anyone possibly provide that would offer greater proof of that point than for you to open your eyes to the world around you and accept that what you see might not align with what you previously thought?

I’ve done that. It sucks. I can see why you might not want to.

I HATE, as I’m sure I’ve made clear in previous posts, the power branding has on our lives. I hate commercialism. I hate our society’s seemingly blind devotion to ultimate profit rule. I hate the power that has been handed to private enterprise in the belief that the free market is better equipped to deal with the running of our nation’s services than any government.

I hate that those companies that will be given the reigns might not necessarily be those most capable of doing the job, but rather those who have branded themselves well. Those who talk a good fight yet have no substance behind their spin.

I hate that people buy what they want and not what they need. I hate our consumer culture. I know it exists because we have shopping malls filled to the ceilings with goods nobody really needs, only things they want. I hate that TV adverts are paid for by vastly successful, disgustingly profitable companies making millions out of convincing the stupid of their need for pointless, vapid tat.

I hate that people spend their Saturdays traipsing round the shops slavishly buying into the super brands, mistakenly believing it will provide some sort of satisfaction beyond that which is momentary.

I know people are seduced by brands, as I can see, when I look with my eyes, the prices of named logo shirts that are higher than plain shirts. Those higher prices are justified only by people’s willingness to pay.

I hate it. I hate it all. It sits completely at odds with what I want to believe. But me not liking it doesn’t stop it from being true.

Why would I say it? Why would I stand by a point that doesn’t sit well with me? Why would I assert a point I don’t like, unless it’s true? What benefit could possibly come from me saying something exists that a) I don’t like and b) doesn’t exist?

Simply to argue with you? No. I say it because it’s true.

Provide counterpoints to those points I’ve made above and prove me wrong.

Is branding actually ineffectual? Am I wrong in what I say? If so, good. I’d really love to be.

No molgrips = what I am saying is that much of it has far less importance and effect that is claimed. People make an issue over deciding which font to use for a logo. So long as the font is clear it makes little difference to many folk

It affects sales. That is a fact. If you think otherwise then you are wrong. End of.

Charlie – I have answered them all several times. You don’t like the answer so ask it again and again.

DrJ – no – are you not listening. the factors I use to decide are absent from your scenario.

a lot of the ‘code’ was embedded into your subconsciousness as you grew up TJ, you might think that now you’re a big boy you can ignore it, and I don’t doubt that you try (though it must take a pretty monumental effort!) but the fact is that you will associate certain things (feelings, moods, taste – anything) with certain other things (colour, sound, curves, smell – again, anything). These things can then be used to manipulate/influence you, if you don’t believe this is possible than your deluding yourself, sorry… even the fact that you may recognise it’s happening and act in a contrary manner to it, still proves that it works!

No, you haven’t answered the specific question of whether or not you disregard marketing. It’s why I keep asking it. When you have answered it we can move on. A simple yes / no response would be good.

As before, do you disregard it?

Charlie – I have answered them all several times. You don’t like the answer so ask it again and again.

Actually you systematically avoided most of the direct questions I put to you, but I’ve let that pass as I’m trying to reach a shared understanding and move on with my life 😀

DrJ – no – are you not listening. the factors I use to decide are absent from your scenario.

You quoted price, colour and availability. I told you all three.

Anyway, I’ve heard enough wriggling – the conclusions are clear, and the answer to your question:

does anyone think there is any point to this anymore?

is: “no – there is no point discussing something with someone who is not prepared to be honest.”

And another top post from jackthedog – a man whose eyes are truly open.

Jack – well feel a bit happier. what you say is all too true in many ways – but there is a whole section of society for whom it does not. Because they do not play that game they are not seen and are discounted.

some friends of mine have recently set up a co operative veg box delivery scheme. This sort of thing is growing and works outside of the consumerist society. No profit is involved, no branding, the only marketing is simply about making basic information available.

Molgrips – its like banging my head on the wall. It affects sales yes – but the effect is far less than people in the advertising industry think

some friends of mine have recently set up a co operative veg box delivery scheme. This sort of thing is growing and works outside of the consumerist society. No profit is involved, no branding, the only marketing is simply about making basic information available.

So, whilst waiting for an answer to the simple question….
I presume you think this non-consumerist veg box thing is a good idea, perhaps something more people should take part in. how do you suggest we let people know that it is available?

DrJ – I have attempted to be absolutely honest. Those three factors were 3 of the many that I use that are not there.

its like me asking “DrJ – when you are rogering your boyfriend on the beach on corfu do you wish he was roger moore or Eric Sykes?”

You can make no meaningful answer as its not a situation you have been in(I guess) or are likely to be in

I do not buy consumer goods new off he internet like that, if I were i would be looking for a lot more information than you gave me including appearance, other peoples experiences, weight, method of fastening the seat on, a huge number of factors

CharlieMungus – Member

No, you haven’t answered the specific question of whether or not you disregard marketing. It’s why I keep asking it. When you have answered it we can move on. A simple yes / no response would be good.

As before, do you disregard it?

Mu

It affects sales yes – but the effect is far less than people in the advertising industry think

Go on then, show me figures. Why do you think that?

Yes, you need to answer the questions which people have been asking you, so that you can clarify your stance, it’s no good just repeating it.

Why? His stance is hardly complicated you just seem to want to bait him for some reason here – not looking lilkley tht he will back down now is it people.
He can detect brands and can tell about marketting but uses other factors when making his purchases. Why is this hard to believe?
Examples can be cited where you/we all do the same – Powerband anyone.
I dont know why you think what he says is controversial. It can work sometimes for some people but it canot work all the time always.

It affects sales. That is a fact. If you think otherwise then you are wrong. End of

I will be quite surprised if you can prove the font used in a logo can be proved to affect sales . I am not really sure how you could do a controlled bit of research on this tbh. Would you like to back this claim up with some research or without telling me that marketing gurus tell us or I will need to tell you about the psychics and the astrologers again.
To summarise marketting may work on some people and probably has some effect – brand awareness foer example
Marketting alone cannot make a product sell
Logos may make you notice a company and their wares but alone it will not sell stuff
Imagine if all marketting and logos were banned and everyone had to have a company name and a product in the same font and design as everyone else. Things would still be bought and sold. It is not essential for trade now is it.
It is possible to ignore marketting [ not be affected by it] and branding and make choices based on other things like say the product.

I’m beginning to think that TJ is right. He has acknowledged that “branding” has an effect on people, but not on him.

All the attempts to “prove” that he is wrong about himself seem to me to be based on assumptions without evidence.

Well done, TJ, I admire your tenacity.

Case unproven.

😯

Marketting alone cannot make a product sell

I think it can actually. Look at the music industry.

some friends of mine have recently set up a co operative veg box delivery scheme. This sort of thing is growing and works outside of the consumerist society. No profit is involved, no branding, the only marketing is simply about making basic information available.

Great. An splendid endeavour. But you know what would make it more popular? A name and some branding. Just saying like. Maybe you should ask jackthedog…

DrJ – I have attempted to be absolutely honest. Those three factors were 3 of the many that I use that are not there.

its like me asking “DrJ – when you are rogering your boyfriend on the beach on corfu do you wish he was roger moore or Eric Sykes?”

You can make no meaningful answer as its not a situation you have been in(I guess) or are likely to be in

I do not buy consumer goods new off he internet like that, if I were i would be looking for a lot more information than you gave me including appearance, other peoples experiences, weight, method of fastening the seat on, a huge number of factors

All those things are clearly assumed equal. The question is about how much weight you place on the Shimano brand, ceteris paribus.

You claim to be honest, but evidently you are not. In an internet discussion there is a presumption that people are honest – otherwise someone can make a string of claims that there is no means to verify. To argue dishonestly reduces the value of the discussion to zero. That is the point to which you have brought this thread. Congratulations.

All the attempts to “prove” that he is wrong about himself seem to me to be based on assumptions without evidence.

Of course – but that is easy on the internet. I can claim to be a beautiful girl and there is no way to disprove it.

Now Tj you cannot say that whether or not you disregard it is meaningless. You yourself, stated that you were able to disregard it. I’m merely trying to establish whether or not you exercise that capability. You clearly thought it was relevant at one stage. I’m wondering if you are being intellectually dishonest or just getting confused about what you believe.

So, please answer the question. It is really simple, and objective. Mu, is not an appropriate response.

some friends of mine have recently set up a co operative veg box delivery scheme. This sort of thing is growing and works outside of the consumerist society. No profit is involved, no branding

what did they call this venture?

Junkyard: you are defending a completely different and far more reasonable position than TJ. I have tried to reach out and nudge TJ towards that position, but he is apparently stuck in a horrible tangle of his own intractable logic and contradiction.

Examples can be cited where you/we all do the same – Powerband anyone.

As I said before, I know what a Powerband is. I am aware of the brand. Ergo their branding has worked.

Ok – you are now saying the two products are totally identical apart from the shimano logo and I have enough information to know this? I buy the cheaper one every time.

I have attempted to be completely honest.

Jack – well feel a bit happier. what you say is all too true in many ways – but there is a whole section of society for whom it does not. Because they do not play that game they are not seen and are discounted.

some friends of mine have recently set up a co operative veg box delivery scheme. This sort of thing is growing and works outside of the consumerist society. No profit is involved, no branding, the only marketing is simply about making basic information available.

I’ve had similar initiatives come to me for branding since I changed the focus of my output to the the third sector. They’ve gone away happy.

GrahamS – Member
Junkyard: you are defending a completely different and far more reasonable position than TJ. I have tried to reach out and nudge TJ towards that position, but he is apparently stuck in a horrible tangle of his own intractable logic and contradiction.

Examples can be cited where you/we all do the same – Powerband anyone.

As I said before, I know what a Powerband is. I am aware of the brand. Ergo their branding has worked

But it didn’t make you buy one.

If they have a company they have a brand. Even if it’s just ‘those two blokes with the veg delivery’ that everyone in the office has heard about.

Why? His stance is hardly complicated you just seem to want to bait him for some reason here – not looking lilkley tht he will back down now is it people.
He can detect brands and can tell about marketting but uses other factors when making his purchases. Why is this hard to believe?

His stance is complicated, it is not clear whether or not he feels he is able to avoid the effects or marketing. Your analysis of his position seems to indicate that he is. However, he has also said that he is not impervious to it. And when asked if he can disregards it and it has no effect. He says No. This seems to conflict with your assessment and his own. I’m try to simplify the questions so I can get a straightforward, unambiguous answer, so I don’t end up with a false impression of his position

Ok – you are now saying the two products are totally identical apart from the shimano logo and I have enough information to know this? I buy the cheaper one every time.

That is what I have always been saying, yes.

Happy that you now concede that the logical outcome of your philosophy is to decide the purchase of a potentially safety-critical piece of kit on the basis of one penny, and not on the information associated with the Shimano brand. I suppose it is asking too much to expect you to comment on whether you think your purchasing decision will turn out wisely, in the long run.

Junkyard: you are defending a completely different and far more reasonable position than TJ.

damning with faint praise 😉

But it didn’t make you buy one.

Absolutely not. It bolloxs isn’t it?
I looked through the marketing spin to the merits of the product and decided it was nonsense. As I said, people do that all the time.

The marketing failed on me. It was never likely to convince me without some actual science behind it as the claims were too wild to be taken at face value.

But the branding worked 100% – when you say Powerband I know exactly what you mean.

And if in the future they release further products under the Powerband brand, even products with considerably more merit, then I would view them with increased scepticism based on my knowledge of that brand.

Graham- no junkyard understands my position completely.

You now seem to be claiming that simply recognising a company name shows the branding has worked?

Molgrips and others have described brand as the product plus various associations with the product such as perceived quality, value etc
.
The example would be nestle. I see a nestle logo I do not buy the product. so you are claiming that this negative effect on sales is proof that the branding works? Simply product recognition is proof that branding works? even if it has a negative effect on sales?

if thats your definition then it proves my earlier point that all you need is the product name.

I still think your difficulty is understand that the product and the brand are not the same. The product has certain inherent attributes. the brand is more than this. its the product plus other associations the brand owner wants to and tries to associate with it.

Absolutely not. It bolloxs isn’t it?
I looked through the marketing spin to the merits of the product and decided it was nonsense. As I said, people do that all the time.

If, on the other hand, the same item was marketed under a different brand, say Boots’ for example, maybe you would have been a bit (a bit) more likely to buy one.

DrJ – Member

Ok – you are now saying the two products are totally identical apart from the shimano logo and I have enough information to know this? I buy the cheaper one every time.

That is what I have always been saying, yes.

Happy that you now concede that the logical outcome of your philosophy is to decide the purchase of a potentially safety-critical piece of kit on the basis of one penny, and not on the information associated with the Shimano brand. I suppose it is asking too much to expect you to comment on whether you think your purchasing decision will turn out wisely, in the long run.

You have said the two products are identical. Not appear identical. are identical in every way. so there is no difference to my safety if i know they are all identical. I have enough information to know they are identical. so the fact one has the shimano brand can make no possible difference to its performance as they are identical.

see now why I said its a meaningless quyestion>?

The example would be nestle. I see a nestle logo I do not buy the product. so you are claiming that this neagtive effect on sales is proof that the branding works? Simply product recognition is proof that branding works? even if it has a negative effet onsales?

Yes!

if thats your definition then it proves my earlier point that all you need is the product name.

No! Because the branding leads to greater recognition! Some brands are just names or words. By themselves, it wouldn’t be clear if they were the belonged to a person, or if the label was describing the contents, or if in fact it was the name of the company who made the stuff

You have said the two products are identical. Not appear identical

Fine. My mistake. You have identical information about the products, as initially described, i.e. simply the brand and the price.

I guess I was premature in celebrating an outbreak of your common sense.

Ah – OK then charlie – thats a totally different position to others on this thread. such as DrJ, molgrips or MF

So actually all the branding to you is is the name of the company or product? No associated values or characteristics? So in that case all the effort in trying to add these things is wasted as all that actually matters is recognition of the name. we don’t need to associate any other qualities with the brand,

So to you the brand is the product there is no difference?