Church of England takes one step closer to being completely irrelevant?

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  • Church of England takes one step closer to being completely irrelevant?
  • Premier Icon stumpyjon
    Subscriber

    Voted against women bishops tonight

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20415689

    Some of the sound bites on the radio from those against truly hark back to the middle ages. One step closer to having no reason to exist in my book.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    Voted against women bishops tonight

    Yet 72% of those present voted in favour of it. Very odd system.

    bikebouy
    Member

    Dear God.

    No seriously… Dear God.

    They must be really scared of them there wiminz.

    Pathetic.

    druidh
    Member

    Had the move been backed by the synod, the proposed legislation would have made its way through Parliament before receiving royal assent.

    🙄

    Can’t their wee club change its own rules without tying up our MPs?

    mrblobby
    Member

    How is this any different to a company trying to preserve a rule that permits only males to serve on its board?

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    How is this any different to a company trying to preserve a rule that permits only males to serve on its board?

    They’re on a mission from God.

    Apparently.

    IanMunro
    Member

    Some of the sound bites on the radio from those against truly hark back to the middle ages. One step closer to having no reason to exist in my book.

    Are people likely to change their views on the existence of a particular God depending on whether women are allowed to wear pointy hats?

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    How is this any different to a company trying to preserve a rule that permits only males to serve on its board?

    Why would that matter?

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    My wife’s a chaplain and so I’m friends with a few female vicars. Judging by Facebook, to say they’re annoyed would be an understatement.

    The vast majority of bishops voted in favour, a large majority of clergy voted in favour and a narrow majority of laity voted in favour. But the system they have set up says that 2/3 of each group must approve before the can change.

    Although, I suspect that the clergy and bishops are slightly more liberal than a lot of the older grassroots christians. I suspect that there are quite a lot of non-Facebook-using Christians who are quietly pleased.

    druidh
    Member

    chakaping wrote:

    How is this any different to a company trying to preserve a rule that permits only males to serve on its board?
    Why would that matter?

    I think the inference is that such a policy by a “normal” company would be illegal.

    Premier Icon vinnyeh
    Subscriber

    I think the inference is that such a policy by a “normal” company would be illegal.

    But isn’t relevant- there are lots of employers practicing gender discrimination, for lots of reasons, most of them accepted perfectly happily by the population.

    druidh
    Member

    There’s a big difference between gender discrimination in front-line roles and at board level.

    mefty
    Member

    A bishop isn’t a boss either.

    It probably would have gone through if they had fleshed out the alternative arrangements for clergy who objected to the principle, but these were left open.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    Ah sorry mrblobby, I thought you were suggesting companies should be able to do same!

    Premier Icon Onzadog
    Subscriber

    Maybe if they had girlie calendars in church it would have been a different outcome.

    mrblobby
    Member

    Ah sorry mrblobby, I thought you were suggesting companies should be able to do same!

    No problem. Just find it strange that we make allowances as a society for such blatantly discriminatory practices based on a religious belief. I personally can’t see any difference between the church and any other employer.

    project
    Member

    If they dont like it (women that is) go and join another religous group.

    or start your own.

    God must really hate women.

    druidh
    Member

    Fervoured Image wrote:

    God must really hate women.

    I bet she does.

    izakimak
    Member

    It’s enough to make a vicar swear.

    Premier Icon franksinatra
    Subscriber

    Can’t their wee club change its own rules without tying up our MPs?

    we also let their club have 24 seats in the House of Lords.

    Makes me wonder, if STW ever got bigger visitor numbers than the Church, would we get representation in the Lords and would Chipps get to sit next to the Queen during her outings and engagements.

    druidh
    Member

    Chipps is a queen.

    bikebouy
    Member

    Are Clergy “employed”?

    Serious question.

    druidh
    Member

    About £20k pa for a vicar IIRC – plus the collection takings and endless cups of tea from the parishioners obviously 🙂

    Premier Icon ourmaninthenorth
    Subscriber

    Sadly another STW religion-bashing thread.

    I heard some interesting POVs on the Today Prog this morning, but the rate at which it descended into squabbling told me that the CofE is far from ready. And, I have to say, the coincidence of the timing with the time taken for the appointment of Welby as ABofC was unfortunate.

    It does, however, call into question the legitimacy of the current operation of the Anglican Church within it’s a current format. I doubt it will cause many to reconsider their faith (an entirely private matter), but the role of the Church within the community – something I think still has great value – will continue to be damaged as it appears ever more conservative in the eyes of a changing world. In effect, it continues to reinforce a view that it is outmoded.

    Premier Icon midlifecrashes
    Subscriber

    The vast majority of bishops voted in favour, a large majority of clergy voted in favour and a narrow majority of laity voted in favour. But the system they have set up says that 2/3 of each group must approve before the can change.

    Maybe now is the time for a schism. The bishops and clergy should break away from the laity.

    Sadly another STW religion-bashing thread.

    Just bashing the bishop(s) I think.

    yossarian
    Member

    Maybe now is the time for a schism.

    It’s certainly time for a life of Brian quote!

    FOLLOWERS: …Look! Ah! Oh! Oh!

    ARTHUR: He has given us a sign!

    FOLLOWER: Oh!

    SHOE FOLLOWER: He has given us… His shoe!

    ARTHUR: The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example.

    SPIKE: What?

    ARTHUR: Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise.

    EDDIE: Yes.

    SHOE FOLLOWER: No, no, no. The shoe is…

    YOUTH: No.

    SHOE FOLLOWER: …a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance.

    GIRL: Cast off…

    SPIKE: Aye. What?

    GIRL: …the shoes! Follow the Gourd!

    SHOE FOLLOWER: No! Let us gather shoes together!

    FRANK: Yes.

    SHOE FOLLOWER: Let me!

    ELSIE: Oh, get off!

    YOUTH: No, no! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!

    SHOE FOLLOWER: Give me your shoe!

    YOUTH: Get off!

    GIRL: Follow the Gourd! The Holy Gourd of Jerusalem!

    FOLLOWER: The Gourd!

    HARRY: Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us!

    ARTHUR: It is a shoe! It is a shoe!

    HARRY: It’s a sandal!

    ARTHUR: No, it isn’t!

    GIRL: Cast it away!

    ARTHUR: Put it on!

    YOUTH: And clear off!

    SHOE FOLLOWER: Take the shoes and follow Him!

    GIRL: Come,…

    FRANK: Yes!

    GIRL: …all ye who call yourself Gourdenes!

    SPIKE: Stop! Stop! Stop, I say! Stop! Let us– let us pray. Yea, He cometh to us, like the seed to the grain.

    mattsccm
    Member

    I fail to see how it can be discussed. If the Bible says yes then yes. If no then no. You can’t go around changing the rules of a religion to suit a change of fashion.
    I have no idea what the Bible says on the matter.

    Twitter earlier.

    1729: Ilkley Parish Church, West Yorkshire

    tweets: Don’t forget to pray for #synod now as they vote on women bishops.
    If the big fella says ‘no’. I guess everyone has to accept it as His will.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Are Clergy “employed”?

    Not quite. Some are stipendiary while others aren’t.

    I fail to see how it can be discussed. If the Bible says yes then yes. If no then no. You can’t go around changing the rules of a religion to suit a change of fashion.
    I have no idea what the Bible says on the matter.

    You may want to look into how the CofE came into existence 🙂

    project
    Member

    Like police commisoners, women bishops are of no real intrest to the majority of people in the uk, just the church puting its hands up in the air and screaming look at me, look at me.

    mefty
    Member

    Are Clergy “employed”?

    No not in the conventional sense

    I fail to see how it can be discussed. If the Bible says yes then yes. If no then no. You can’t go around changing the rules of a religion to suit a change of fashion.
    I have no idea what the Bible says on the matter.

    You’re kidding right? There are numerous parts of the bible that are now ignored by ‘the church’ as no longer relevant to modern society.

    Premier Icon richmars
    Subscriber

    I’m very pleased with the vote. Gives me years more fun watching the C of E get more and more irrelevant.

    Premier Icon ourmaninthenorth
    Subscriber

    [Quote]Like police commisoners, women bishops are of no real intrest to the majority of people in the uk, just the church puting its hands up in the air and screaming look at me, look at me.[/quote]

    Not really. It is the Church of England – the main religious organisation of the largest nation in the UK. It is also intrinsically linked with the establishment and the state. So I can see how it is so significant. In fact, it’s significance arises most of all prwcisely because this internal management structuring is being carried out under the public gaze.

    Do I care? No. But I do understand why it is important.

    And, other than some temporal proximity has FA to do with police commissioners.

    Premier Icon SaxonRider
    Subscriber

    thekingisdead – Member

    I fail to see how it can be discussed. If the Bible says yes then yes. If no then no. You can’t go around changing the rules of a religion to suit a change of fashion.
    I have no idea what the Bible says on the matter.

    You’re kidding right? There are numerous parts of the bible that are now ignored by ‘the church’ as no longer relevant to modern society. [/quote]

    I believe he was, indeed, kidding. He just failed to use a winky face at the end. 😉

    rudebwoy
    Member

    riginally Posted by CANDYANGEL
    This might help

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1022833.stm

    Curates: £14,680-£15,820
    Parish clergy: £16,420
    Cathedral-based canons: £20,200
    Junior bishops: £24,790
    Diocesan bishops: £30,120
    Archbishop of Canterbury: £55,660

    there are extras– weddings,fundraisers, collection, and all sorts of social ‘invites’– oh and rent free accomodation. better than being homeless..

    project
    Member

    Like police commisoners, women bishops are of no real intrest to the majority of people in the uk, just the church puting its hands up in the air and screaming look at me, look at me.

    Not really. It is the Church of England – the main religious organisation of the largest nation in the UK. It is also intrinsically linked with the establishment and the state. So I can see how it is so significant. In fact, it’s significance arises most of all prwcisely because this internal management structuring is being carried out under the public gaze.

    Do I care? No. But I do understand why it is important.

    And, other than some temporal proximity has FA to do with police commissioners.

    Very few people attend church, very few voted for police commisioners, both have no real power,theyre just talking shops for the educated masses and daily mail readers and both need atention in the press to make them feel theyre needed.

    If the church was abolished tommorow who would notice it missing only those who live near a church and hear the bells every sunday.

    Premier Icon SaxonRider
    Subscriber

    rudebwoy – Member

    riginally Posted by CANDYANGEL
    This might help

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1022833.stm

    Curates: £14,680-£15,820
    Parish clergy: £16,420
    Cathedral-based canons: £20,200
    Junior bishops: £24,790
    Diocesan bishops: £30,120
    Archbishop of Canterbury: £55,660

    there are extras– weddings,fundraisers, collection, and all sorts of social ‘invites’– oh and rent free accomodation. better than being homeless..

    Just to be clear, the above list is correct, but all other monies are declared and paid directly to the diocese. Accommodation is rent free, but the priest (or whomever) is still responsible for council tax and utilities.

    There is a charge for weddings and funerals which is set by the Church Commissioners of the CofE and which goes to the diocese, and the collections are always counted by parish officers who then deposit it in church accounts. A parish priest should seldom, if ever, see it.

    rudebwoy
    Member

    ok saxonrider– i fess up, was being a bit frivolous with the comments, but i am sure most clergy are upright and true , but there are those that stray from the path–and some who should never have been accepted…

    loum
    Member

    Church of England takes one step closer to being completely irrelevant?

    Would the Church not have become more irrelevant by ignoring it’s principles and choosing to accede to the wishes of non-members?

    mudshark
    Member

    The Catholic church is stuck in it’s ways rather more than the C of E – still pretty popular.

    robdixon
    Member

    the figures up there are missing a small but important caveat.

    For any full time vicars who entered the church over the age of 50, there is no salary and no accommodation – they basically volunteer for 40 to 60 hours a week for free which irrespective of different religious views is a pretty substantial contribution to the wider community.

    mudshark
    Member

    I didn’t know that. Lots of people put in a lot of time to help their community through their church.

    My Dad was a vicar, retired a few years early and now uses my inheritance to pop over to Eastern Europe to do missionary things.

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