Northwind, I do think you are employing straw man strategy. At no point did I reference any other nation. I am not concerned about the rise of all other nations. I very clearly pointed out my admiration for the rise of other countries such as South Korea and Japan, I would happily add Brazil to that, and India.

You can’t just add views that I have not espoused. I really don’t think you can equate any comment that is negative towards a foreign power, as racism. If that was right then where would we all be? This kind of self censoring is corrosive. I am not sure it is ok to think other races can’t live in a free society, and that they are culturally, and even worse, racially disposed to live under a totalitarian regime. Worse, that because of this we should actively support the regime by allowing them to trade with us. Trade isn’t a forced activity, countries can choose who they trade with. If we (in the west) are being treated unfairly, we are more than within our rights to stop that trade. I would also add that an outsider observing the old feudal system in Europe, may have thought that Europeans were racially and culturally unable to pursue individual freedom and democracy.

I am also not sure of the empirical evidence of the ‘western decline’ zeitgeist. It is not inevitable or particularly apparent. Although it is often wheeled out, but for what purpose I am not sure. It seems to be purposefully self defeating. I am not sure why I would want to share that view even if I could see evidence for it. If anything you could have a reading where western culture’s success and its adoption by other nations is more true? Creating a greater world balance, which I am very much for (the global balance, not western culture being the cause of it). It could be argued that one of the most alarming aspects of China’s current path is its adoption of western capitalism within a totalitarian framework. The worst with the worst, and we are mean’t to support and encourage that with overly generous trade deals? It defies any logic?

There is no place for Totalitarianism, we should not support its spread and cultural and economic influence. I think it is simply wrong to encourage this. I think apathy and moral ambiguity in the face of such systems is also very very worrying and dangerous. By its very nature a totalitarian state wants to expand its field of influence. Control of media and ideas is essential for it to continue. The human race is poorer with these systems in place. I think we need to be clear that this premise is paramount and work from there. Then we can also deal with the injustices and problems with our own imperfect system. Imperfect yes, but totalitarian it isn’t. If we forget this then we are all lost.

Drj are you Wu Mao?

There is no place for Totalitarianism, we should not support its spread and cultural and economic influence. I think it is simply wrong to encourage this. I think apathy and moral ambiguity in the face of such systems is also very very worrying and dangerous.

You started of this thread telling us how trump was standing up to all this, how would you look to stop China and it’s growth

Drj are you Wu Mao?

No – quite the opposite.

China has always been the worlds superpower, it’s recent history is a hiccup caused by Western aggression – even it’s current authoritarian regime is a direct consequence of western aggression.

You reap what you sow, I’m going to be quite tickled by watching westerners being treated like slaves as overseas foreign workers.

There is no place for Totalitarianism, we should not support its spread and cultural and economic influence

You have this all wrong, there’s no place for democracy, it’s an smaller hiccup than Chinas fall from grace in terms of history.

My other point is that you would consign 1 billion people to poverty just because they don’t use the same political system as you? That doesn’t sound very ethical.

While the US and Britain disappear up their own arses, China’s driving outwards. Nowhere in the west is there anything like the Belt and Road Action Plan. We’re not building 600 ton bridge building beasts, we’re building big beautiful walls and recreating old borders. China is creating its own new markets and drawing more and more of the world into its sphere of influence while some of the leading western powers actively withdraw, hack up longstanding strong relationships, and piss about with 19th century trade policies. We’re not even continuing with the politics that worked- the projection of force and mutual protection.
And you think the solution is tariffs? The solution is trade, infrastructure, education and counterinfluence, and pitting our ideas against theirs. But we’re building walls while they literally build bridges, $50bn worth of investment in Pakistan. Damn nearly a trillion into India, Kenya, Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, Egypt, the Phillipines… An internal energy revolution while we depend on them for our own half-assed nuclear policy and the US champions coal, criticising their despotism while we demean our own democracy and rights.

This.

We expect better jobs and living standards than the rest of the world as if it is a divine right, we have sections of the population that are happy to sit in mining towns for decades pissing and moaning, whilst Chinese peasants move hundreds of miles to their cities to find work. We’re fat, we expect to have great healthcare but not have to pay for it, we’re anti-intellectual with a complete cultural disregard for education outside of the private sector and we’re inward looking racists who whinge whenever our government attempts to use public money to invest in developing nations and create influence – “charity starts at home…wahh…wahhhh….wahhhhh” **** off.

We can’t expect to go back to our days of being a fighty, trading and sailing nation if we’re fat, wet, lazy and entitled. We have to pay for all the comforts that these people want instead of spending that money on creating hard and soft geopolitical clout.

It’s quite simple, do you want a well funded NHS, welfare and social care – or do you want gunboats, destroyers, press gangs to deal with naval recruitment issues, cuts in workers rights, a huge increase in education spending and massive industrial subsidies so we can push automation through, deindustrialise the developing world again and horde all the money? This all requires 18th century democracy, which was about as democratic as China is now. So what the **** is the point? Authoritarianism all looks the same when the shit is floating down stream to you. Unless you’re racist of course

That bridge building and investment is what is giving them a future*. Whilst we see regular calls to curtail, reduce or stop foreign investment and spend it at home, China is spending billions in emerging markets (https://chinapower.csis.org/china-foreign-direct-investment/) and offering up soft power in developing nations (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a552566.pdf), something that we cannot afford to do and have no political will to do.

Trump may be making himself more popular at home (to at least some of his country), but his nationalist and isolationist agenda appears to be driving America away from global leadership, allowing China to step in,

* Of course, there is also the IP theft that China is notorious for keeping them going. Someone earlier mentioned Huawei… Their initial start was, as I understand it, assisted by the wholesale theft of Nortel intellectual property (https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-risks-of-chinas-huawei-to-canada_2661441.html). That level of theft will save millions, if not more, on research and development and is seen even today with the copying of GoPro and other technology.

Like it or not, it is a nation that has the balls to steal stuff, suppress internal dissent and plan more than a few years ahead. Can you doubt it won’t be the driving force of the world’s economy in the future?

Also, Moses from what I understand the west wanted China to be a healthy functioning member of the world trading system, this has brought a large percentage of their population out of poverty. We gave them access to our markets, so their strength has come from us allowing them to grow.

Tell you what dogmatix, you’re a bloody good bloke. So am I, actually. 500 million Chinese lifted out of extreme poverty since 1990 – 75% of total poverty reduction on planet earth, and it was all down to you, me, and the rest of us altruistic Westerners.

We didn’t allow them to grow, that’s western centric bollocks as well. We moved manufacturing there out of greed, whilst they were the ones who actually opened their markets to us.

Before all of this, we actually took their trading empire away from them.

In terms of IP, Japan did the same in the 50’s – look at where they are now – innovating, with their own brilliant if sometimes bonkers creative industries.

<div class=”bbp-reply-author”>dogmatix
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You can’t just add views that I have not espoused.

Why not? It’s not all about you, other views are available.

In the days before I went to China just now – Interpol chief, actress disappeared for months, re-education camps for Muslims. So China is not a nice place in many respects.

Of course Guantanamo Bay, killing of anti-KKK protestor, support for murder of Saudi journalist, endless foreign wars, Gaza etc. – neither is the US.

The “rise of China” might be viewed as China using the same code of conduct that superpowers always have.

Having said that, it is a bit of a dystopian society in the way every aspect is monitored and controlled.

In a nutshell – Tian’anmen Square – well known history – to get in you have to have your ID scanned and your bags X-rayed. Once inside there are spotlessly clean public toilets. A loss of personal freedom but seems worth it when you have travellers tummy!!

DrJ… sorry I was Joking, I should have been clearer about it being a joke, and I am not just writing this in light of your recent post. I was going to say as much soon after I posted it but got waylaid.

I have seen and read that facial recognition systems are being widely put in to place in China and some seem to think they will be used in tandem with the Social Credit System to police people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System .

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/01/31/democracy-continues-its-disturbing-retreat

Map of the reduction in global Democracy.