I think the title maybe classed as a click bait title, but it is the genuine subject of my enquiry. I used Insta360 as an example of the increasing mainstreaming of Chinese design and engineered products. A trend that could very quickly snowball. I am aware there are not many recognised Chinese brands at the moment, but that could very very very quickly change. Brands like Insta360 and Huawei are just the vanguard.

On to western weakness, are we either…:

– Week
– Deluded
– Resigned (see week)
– Too Individualistic
– Arrogant (see deluded)
– Open (lacking boundaries)
– Self destructing (apologetic)

…to do anything about an authoritarian, communist (in the dictatorship sense) and highly xenophobic nation slowly exploiting, undermining and destroying our western democracies?

Trump making sense. I would like to start by saying I am not a fan of the man. He is a very floored human being, I think his use of racial identity to win votes was wrong (although I do believe in national borders, and nation states). BUT….. he is the only person willing to not get down on one knee and let the tide of China wash over him/us.

I sigh in anticipation of responses communicating either negligent apathy/dismissal or liberal weakness.

BUT….. he is the only person willing to not get down on one knee and let the tide of China wash over him/us.

Apart from being an angry man shouting at the sky and getting screwed over on reciprocal tariffs what is he doing?

You’re right that these brands will snowball. Xiaomi is another.
As we weaken, out spending power becomes less and are even more drawn towards the cheaper products from China.

What’s interesting with some of these brands is that the driver doesn’t seem to be only manufacturing, but innovation. They’ve very openly been recruiting western (and English in particular) heads of education in creative and technological fields for a while now, and we’re starting to see the results of that.

Many of the people I work with from a Hong Kong company were educated in English and American schools and universities too.

China is a country of 1.3+ billion people, many of whom are working in manufacturing yet earn low wages.

It’s not surprising that we buy Chines goods because they are cheaper than Western goods, andoften we have no equivalent.  With economic power comes political power.  China has replaced the West as the preferred supplier of infrastructure in much of the world, which gives it leverage on many governments.

I’d put China’s rise down to its strength rather than our weakness. That and the US/UK’s reliance on the financial sector to pay the bills. Trump is so patriotic that his campaign memorabilia was made in China.

I forgot to include DJI as another Chinese innovative company. Incredibly quick-to-market with new ideas and solid reliability.
When they bought Hasselblad it was a bit of an eye-opener and some of their professional film-studio equipment is embarrassing silicon valley. (as their Mavic drone did to GoPro).

But I’m just currently observing rather than fearing. My main concern is for the human rights of the workers there. We should be only allowing imports of goods where worker rights are acceptable. I see far too little of this. it seems to be completely down to the discretion of resellers as to whether it becomes socially unacceptable to the point where it harms marketing.

Pfft, things ebb and flow, change is the only constant.

Did we really think “Designed in California, Made in China” was always how it would be?

When my Dad was a Lad it was factories from coast to coast, making stuff, exporting stuff, we did okay. Then things changed, it was cheaper to make stuff in the Far East, so we closed all the factories, knocked ’em down to build flats, we still did okay, but it was a different kind of ‘okay’ in the last 40 years the UK (and the West as a whole) created millions of millionaires to the point now that having a net worth of a million pounds isn’t big news – you can have a net worth of a million pounds simply by being slightly posher than average 30 years ago and buying the right house. Today, Billionaire has become the new Millionaire, but at the same time we’ve got a homelessness problem, a child poverty problem and households on their 3rd or even 4th generation who’ve never worked.

Trump is playing for his crowd, but he’s sat in his gold throne at the beach ordering the tide to stay out.

China has been emerging for decades, 10 years ago their government kept the people poor, they stock piled currency, drove down inflation, deflated their currency, but they don’t want to do that any more, the Chinese middle class has arrived and it wants to spend, luckily they seem to like luxury European brands at the moment.

China emergence doesn’t mean we have to switch places, Britain will never become the workshop of the world again, but I don’t even the Yanks will be able to say “leader of the free world” with a straight face much longer.

China will be the next super power, and forget all that “special relationship” bollocks, we may do just as well with them as we did with the US.

What China does well it think long-term, perhaps that’s the benefit of a one-party system, who cares about the next 4 years, if you’re going to be in power for 40. China is currently throwing billions into Africa and why not, cheap labour with lots of natural resources and energy. Shitfire, a lot of African countries have been shafted by the west for hundreds of years, China may bring long term peace to places that have been bust killing each other for decades as war lords fight it out for the right to sell their countries natural resources to us, if they can offer labour as well as that, it’ll be a more peaceful place. .

Trump is playing for his crowd, but he’s sat in his gold throne at the beach ordering the tide to stay out.

Yep, still waiting to here what he is actually doing to stop China? So far it’s offering millions to US Soya Bean farmers who’s market just collapsed.

I would like to start by saying I am not a fan of the man. He is a very floored human being,

Only one Floored Genius,

As the Man himself said –  there are a few foreigners, with full bellies, who have nothing better to do than try to point fingers at our country. China does not export revolution, hunger, poverty, nor does China cause you any headaches. Just what else do you want?

Have you been to China, dogmatix? It’s quite eye-opening – notions of Western democracy do not map easily onto a nation of 1.4 billion people with different ideas of how society works. Despite these differences, you’ll be staggered to learn that Chinese people are, at heart, just like us and want the same things out of life [albeit they’re a lot more ambitious and motivated to get those things].

This is helpful to remember if you ever feel like writing some bollox online about the Chinese xenophobic Borg-state that is planning to assimilate our precious Western bodily fluids.

mikewsmith, China can’t make reciprocal Tariff’s, they don’t import enough US products, even though their population is much larger. The trade deficit with the much less populous US is massive.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/trump-right-us-can%E2%80%99t-lose-trade-war-25202

Moses, I would argue their growth is down to their stealing western technology and knowledge. Alex Simon is right Chinese company’s (mostly run by the government) pay ridiculous salaries to westerners willing to sell out on western companies. They hand over all of their knowledge for short term financial gain. Also, the Chinese are very nationalistic (maybe due to government propaganda) and will not buy western products if they can avoid it, so it is an unfair market, where they sell to us but buy next to nothing from us (comparatively).

They do not compete with us, they exploit our system and weaknesses, they do not believe in intellectual property, one of the foundations of our democratic capitalist system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwind_X7

The chinese land rover.

An authoritarian state does not need intellectual property. Individuals are not important. I think many companies are directly or in essence owned by the state, with varying levels of autonomy.

Also, Moses from what I understand the west wanted China to be a healthy functioning member of the world trading system, this has brought a large percentage of their population out of poverty. We gave them access to our markets, so their strength has come from us allowing them to grow. The idea that we will benefit from this is just a ruse.

mikewsmith, China can’t make reciprocal Tariff’s, they don’t import enough US products, even though their population is much larger. The trade deficit with the much less populous US is massive.

The EU can, and have done. They have targeted key US export markets especially in states which have key Republican law makers.

The Steel import tariff is a complete disaster as it is hitting US manufacturing jobs much harder than China.

China has the power to do things like screw over the Soya Bean farmers within minutes and have done.

If President Trump is right about one thing, it’s that when you have a trade deficit of half a trillion dollars, you can’t lose a trade war.

This is a view not shared by the majority of analysts who do not see a win here. It’s an over simplistic viewpoint and one that is not shared by the Republican party – the fact he is using national security as an excuse to get these through without a vote means it could all go south for him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-44945112

£12bn for US farmers

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44957350

US Car making takes a hit, BMW were considering move production out of the US to South Africa or other places

I’ll ask again what has he actually done?

Garry Lager, I am not sure if you made a point different to mine, you seemed to make my point for me. Their government is on a single course to take our technology and knowledge, and to dominate, and have a social system based on authoritarian totalitarianism. I have nothing against the people, but they can’t change their government. You turned it in to a point about the people. My point is not with the Chinese people, but with the system that is exploiting the west, exploiting my friends and families future.

Exploiting the west ??

Dont get that. The West are quite happy to use China for cheap goods. Sadly not all chinese people benefit from it. But lots do.

China can’t make reciprocal Tariff’s, they don’t import enough US products, even though their population is much larger. The trade deficit with the much less populous US is massive.

The billions in aid that are going to keep the US farmers alive this winter make the situation quite desperate for some. If another nation secured the soybean or wheat crop for next year (assuming tariffs are lifted early next year) many could face bankruptcy.

It only makes sense to put a tariff on imports if you have an excess of capacity in country. Not say for steel where companies still need to import and it then makes their goods uncompetitive for export.

China is state sponsored manufacturing and the issues with IP and ethics have always been clear. People want cheap goods and lots of them. We have an economy built on this tat, it can’t just decouple.

anyway for manufacturing China is old news. Apparently you can exploit people and make machined goods cheaper in India

Moses, I would argue their growth is down to their stealing western technology and knowledge.

That might have been true in the past, just as we did in past centurues. However they have now overtaken us in many areas – where are the huge electronics processor plants here? Where do we buy our carbon frames? Where does Sturmey-Archer manufacture now?

We stopped innovating in many industries – and didn’t invest. Back in the 80s, the government chose to stop “subsidising” engineering , but to “invest” in finance. I don’t know what the remedy is.

Moses, I would argue their growth is down to their stealing western technology and knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder

What goes around comes around. Once the tech exists its up for grabs, has been all over the western world. Hearing of people at the moment getting much better tech offerings for some machines from China compared to Europe so taking and improving.

You can’t turn off the east, you can’t control them and you certainly can’t bully them. What’s left as an option.

Still no answer to what trump is actually achieved or done yet.

to do anything about

What the hell do you expect to be able to do?  Trade war?  Real war?  Who’s going to lose in that situation?

Why should we fight to preserve dominance anyway?  Why should we dominate?  Because we’re better than those damn foreigners?  You want to fight to preserve the old world order?  Give me a break.

If someone else does better than you, you shouldn’t look to stop them – you should try and do better still.  What can we do that the Chinese can’t?  The aim of society is to give a good life to your citizens, IMO – not to dominate the world.

Also, intellectual property belongs to people or companies until it doesn’t, then it belongs to humanity.  It never belongs to a country.

If someone else does better than you, you shouldn’t look to stop them – you should try and do better still.

I agree with this, except we do do better in terms of health, workers rights, quality of life, pollution, etc. Which is why we can’t compete in outright price terms.

I agree with this, except we do do better in terms of health, workers rights, quality of life, pollution, etc.

Not for much longer! #Brexit

Moses, you’d better stop arguing with yourself. All looks a bit sockpuppet.

eddiebaby – can’t really blame someone for the crap forum quoting method. He was quoting dogmatix above.

Apologies to all concerned.

Trump… is a very floored human being

Well there’s a thought 🙂

Re trade war, right now Americans want to buy loads of what China wants to sell. Trump is making it cost more in the hope they’ll buy less. It’s not clear quite what the US wins in this situation, but I guess we’ll see…

Why should we fight to preserve dominance anyway?

Because

some days don’t you just want to just buy something? Cool and preferably expensive?

🙂

<div class=”bbp-reply-author”>avdave2
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Why should we fight to preserve dominance anyway?

Because

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Smooth reasoning there.

Re trade war, right now Americans want to buy loads of what China wants to sell. Trump is making it cost more in the hope they’ll buy less. It’s not clear quite what the US wins in this situation, but I guess we’ll see…

the idea is is that people still buy the same but they get it from a US supplier (protect US jobs). The fact that there is no local supplier or that the cost implications mean that for every 1 job you save you cost 100 don’t matter because those are fake news spun by traitors who hate the flag and veterans

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I’d put China’s rise down to its strength rather than our weakness.

This. And it’s quite weird that people constantly want to depict this (and similar situations) as weakness on our part, as if there’s a natural order that we’re throwing away or something. It’s the same with UK manufacturing, people keep saying “we don’t make anything anymore” but actually the UK’s biggest manufacturing output by value added, of all time, came immediately before the financial crisis- we’re a stronger manufacturer than we’ve ever been. It’s just that other, stronger countries have overtaken us. It takes nothing away from us to be out-produced by Brazil, with its huge landmass, population potential and untapped resources, or China with its huge everything.

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Really not sure why it is. Political “patriots” always seem to want to beat down their own country and say how terrible everything is, so there’s an element of that. I think racism plays a big part too- how can these slanty eyes and coloureds be beating us? It can’t be anything they’re doing, we must be letting them. Or they must be cheating.

but actually the UK’s biggest manufacturing output by value added, of all time, came immediately before the financial crisis- we’re a stronger manufacturer than we’ve ever been.

Problem is stuff like that is expensive and complicated manufacturing that needs skills and gives jobs to people who think.

Saw a fantastic bae presentation about making mobile manufacturering solutions for hostile environments. Great stuff and huge value to the economy and skills base.

Some people want the sort of stuff where people are grateful not to loose a limb in a workhouse and stop complaining.

High volume low skill manufacturing means you don’t need to invest in tech or skills. You can just stop people’s benefits until they take a job.

Molegrips, it is not about preserving dominance. I am not sure why you think it is? I have only ever stated it is about preventing the dominance of a state that is hell bent on achieving world dominance and has policies that say as much. The plan is not a benign growth, but dominance and control.

I am very confused on how lost western civilisation has got that we are happy to facilitate the growth and dominance of a totalitarian state! Do we not know what that actually means? Are we that lost? Who in their right mind can actually argue for that? Asleep at the wheel does not begin to describe it. We have been to busy fighting stupid proxy wars in the middle east.

The west and the USA encourage the growth of friendly economies, it is how we grow ourselves. We have encouraged and helped China. From what I understand China would not have the growth it has without the help of the west. There are rules to this friendly, but competitive, trade. China is flouting all of these rules because it doesn’t believe in them.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/03/01/how-the-west-got-china-wrong

Japan and South Korea have flourished in tandem with the west. They compete with us, they often win in that competition. That is all completely fine. That is how it works. They play by the rules and often win. I love the fact that we are all in this friendly competition, with everyone’s economy growing.

China cares nothing for this, it just wants to break all the rules. It wants to steal our technology, with zero R & D. It wants to exploit our populations by selling cheap versions of our technology and buy nothing back. It simply copies everything the west has, and sells that to its population, not our products.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/zotye-sr9-porsche-macan-clone

I don’t think the current trade war is a master plan of Trump. This is one of the men behind the strategy:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/19/peter-navarro-zero-sum-game-between-china-and-the-rest-of-the-world.html

I don’t think the current trade war is a master plan of Trump. This is one of the men behind the strategy:

I’ll ask again, what he he done that is working here? Not seeing anything.

On the zero sum game Trump is a true believer in this, it’s his MO in deals all over the place, whereas international relations is anything but that. To approach it like that means you will be the side to loose the most which is becoming evident in the losses and actions of US companies at the moment.

I am very confused on how lost western civilisation has got that we are happy to facilitate the growth and dominance of a totalitarian state! Do we not know what that actually means? Are we that lost? Who in their right mind can actually argue for that? Asleep at the wheel does not begin to describe it. We have been to busy fighting stupid proxy wars in the middle east.

How should the west have stopped the largest country in the world from doing this? Who are we to keep a civilisation down because it challenges our ideals?

Next up Indonesia and India if they can sort themselves out.

Northwind, I really think you are pulling out some well worn views. Why would it have anything to do with racism, it doesn’t seem to have any relevance? It is an easy thing to say to close down an argument, but has little validity?

So it seems like you agree with the economic strategy of China and think we should just sit back and encourage them with our pro China economic policies? Where do you see those policies leading? Can you gives us your predictions if we continue on our current course? Keeping in mind the political environment in China. Happy for you to explain.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33534.pdf

Extract:

‘The methods the Chinese government plans to use to achieve its goals have raised concerns among U.S. firms and policymakers because they appear to involve large subsidies, protection of domestic industries, directed policies to purchase technology and IPR from abroad, increased pressure on foreign firms to transfer technology in order to do business in China, and what appears to be a goal of deliberately reducing foreign participation in China’s markets. ‘

Wow, it is staggering how so many people are supporting the Chinese political and strategic agenda. It is very clear that, yes we do not have the strength to defend our own future economy in the same way the Chinese do.

Mikewsmith, I am not sure what logic there is in your comment. We have helped China grow not tried to keep them down. Your reading of the situation defies any logic I understand? What ideals do you think we should be happy to give away? Freedom for humanity? Democracy? What do you want in its place? Please tell me what you think the Chinese government has that is better? Do you really think the Chinese party will be benign leaders? Why should the west keep open trade with a hostile nation? What compels us too?

Wow, it is staggering how so many people are supporting the Chinese political and strategic agenda. It is very clear that, yes we do not have the strength to defend our own future economy in the same way the Chinese do.

Your making a big assumption there. Active support and allowing the world to function are not the same thing.

Mikewsmith, I am not sure what logic there is in your comment. We have helped China grow not tried to keep them down.

Your misreading, (and skipping the question I keep asking) You suggest we keep China down, somehow suppress it’s economy and growth. How do you suppress the largest country in the world?

While you are considering that, back to your opening, what has Trump done that will do anything to China,

 BUT….. he is the only person willing to not get down on one knee and let the tide of China wash over him/us.

So far he has shouted at the sky, shot himself in the foot and delivered nothing but the need for payouts to US farmers. Is that a good lead?

Given he chance the Chinese will buy western as they trust the brand more, you only have to see the number of mainlanders in HK buying baby milk powder or where most of New Zealand dairy products go to. Even their own citizens know that Chinese companies cannot be trusted for products that are literally life threatening.

With manufacturing now being moved out of China it will be interesting to see if they can continue to drive this growth internally.

China’s biggest issue is not technology but how it feeds its people and the need for agricultural space (this also involves a lot of fish) and this is what will affect and define its relationship with the outside world.

I suspect they will simply take Africa in a debt trap!

<div class=”bbp-reply-author”>dogmatix
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Northwind, I really think you are pulling out some well worn views. Why would it have anything to do with racism, it doesn’t seem to have any relevance? It is an easy thing to say to close down an argument, but has little validity?

So it seems like you agree with the economic strategy of China and think we should just sit back and encourage them with our pro China economic policies?

I’m not closing down any arguments- clearly. But I do think it’s true.

There’s no innate reason why the UK should be an economic superpower other than rather worn out history. Other countries have advantages now that we do not. We punch massively above our weight and then people piss and moan because foreign countries can do better and we complain most of all when they’re a funny colour, for some reason- we don’t really mind being outproduced by the USA, France and Germany but we shit it when it’s Brazil. That assumption of some sort of natural superiority has to come from somewhere and I’ve no doubt that from a lot of people it comes from racism, just as for others it comes from blind nationalism, and others still from “divine right”. We expect to be better; we treat it like a right not as something to work harder at. I suspect that the idea that China is dependent on our “help” and is a net taker will originate from the same place in many people, as if we haven’t sucked eagerly at the teat of cheap manufacturing- we should be able to judge them since we’ve all walked in Chinese shoes.

It’s not good for us- but that’s not the point, it’s their economic strategy, they’re choosing it because it’s good for them. It’s not just about production, or IP, in fact more and more it’s about infrastructure and influence- geopolitics

While the US and Britain disappear up their own arses, China’s driving outwards. Nowhere in the west is there anything like the Belt and Road Action Plan. We’re not building 600 ton bridge building beasts, we’re building big beautiful walls and recreating old borders. China is creating its own new markets and drawing more and more of the world into its sphere of influence while some of the leading western powers actively withdraw, hack up longstanding strong relationships, and piss about with 19th century trade policies. We’re not even continuing with the politics that worked- the projection of force and mutual protection.

And you think the solution is tariffs? The solution is trade, infrastructure, education and counterinfluence, and pitting our ideas against theirs. But we’re building walls while they literally build bridges, $50bn worth of investment in Pakistan. Damn nearly a trillion into India, Kenya, Thailand,  Burma, Indonesia, Egypt, the Phillipines… An internal energy revolution while we depend on them for our own half-assed nuclear policy and the US champions coal, criticising their despotism while we demean our own democracy and rights.

Almaty’s sat on the silk road, pulled in both directions as it has been for as long as there’s really been a Kazakhstan. What do they see today? Big fat Chinese purses and investment on one side- more in the last 3 years than the UK has invested ever. On the other, conferences, forums, mostly meaningless words, and sneering at backwards nations. We act like they should be grateful to deal with the mighty UK. My trade is education, we used to send recruiters out to bring in students here, to pay fees and boost the economy and take home pro-UK sentiment and understanding when they were done, now the UK government treats students like cash cows at best and criminals at worst. Just one example of how we reach out to allies. Who would you turn to? The hostile enviroment or the open purse.

So yeah, I respect what China’s doing even though I don’t want China to win. We are playing a stupid game while they play a smart one, and complaining that it’s not fair doesn’t help while you get your arse kicked. This is not about strength as much as it is about how you apply your strength and the us is applying its strength to mutual harm. (it isn’t a zero sum game, it’s a net loss, it creates only regret and anger) I don’t want the west’s ideas to win either, right now. Corporatism and nationalism and fear and petty insularism is still better than despotism but they’re both sticks with different flavours  of shit on.

Oh and don’t make the stupid, lazy mistake of thinking that anyone that can respect a rival is on their side.

What compels us too?

The need for cheap goods.

Coincidentally I am in China right now. I will reply to some of the points Northwind makes when I return.

DrJ

Member

Coincidentally I am in China right now. I will reply to some of the points Northwind makes when I return.

How on earth could STW be allowed through the firewall! Clearly we’re not subversive enough!