solo, not my friend.

it’s almost as if some are offended, because i am offended.

Solo, re your previous post.

We have an easy, simple way of causing people less distress than they would otherwise encounter.
Just by moderating our language and showing others the respect we’d like to receive ourselves, we can make our world a slightly better place for all of us.
Why wouldn’t you want to encourage that?

deadlydarcy – Member
You just couldn’t be arsed challenging prejudice.

Junkyard – Member
depends on whether what they are doing is right wrong or just a convention really.

Which brings is back full circle to the concept of bias and perception. Of course, if we as a society are morally perfect and an example to all in tackling prejudice and endorsing what is right or wrong, then we should set about changing and educating the world to our high standards 😕 Wasn’t that the excuse we used to send missionaries around the world????

Hhhmmm. Like your contribution was, err, really ACE !.

Ad hominem time already? 😳 😐 🙁 😛 😡 😀 …etc etc

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QoA44c23A[/video]

Chris Rock:

“I’m black, and man – I HATE ****!!”

So that makes it ok to repeat/hold up as a poster-child for name calling to other races?

i experience racism on a near daily basis and have for years.

context, intent, and the beliefs held by the person saying the perceived racist things are all key i think. as one of 3 white people working for a company that is 99% differing populations from around the world (mainly africa, poland and various eastern countries) its interesting watching the racism directed at each other. the polish can be really nasty about the africans!

my boss is from zimbabwe and some of the stuff he comes out with about his employees makes me cringe. the way he treats his fellow african co-workers is completely different to the way he treats me… i get it easy compared to them!

many of my african co-workers, mainly the ones who have spent a lot of time in this country or were born here call me ‘my ****’ in the same way they do their friends.

then i get the racism from my patients directed towards staff because i’m white they assume i must agree with them 🙁

despite all the racism thrown back and forth, i’ve never heard any of them refer to a Chinese takeaway as a ‘chinky’ apart from one patient who has admitted to me he supports the BNP.

all that is very anecdotal i know, but whilst people are writing about their experiences i figured i’d contribute something other than ‘oh deary me’.

hora – Member

So that makes it ok to repeat/hold up as a poster-child for name calling to other races?

Erm, dunno, does it?

deadlydarcy – Member
@ McHamish, I just assumed your “owner” comment was heavily sprinkled with ground irony.

McHamish – Member
It was, but makes an interesting point I think.

That racist and sexist comments are OK if they’re funny?

That racist and sexist comments are OK if they’re funny?

Depends on context.

Ironic and funny don’t always go hand in hand.

Imperialism relies on racism to justify its ideology, the legacy of this continues in post imperialism.

Are we still talking about this? Blimey.

If you’re not sure what I meant, perhaps you ought to sit quietly and contemplate what I could be referring to…perhaps put the lights off and listen to some ‘mood music’.

Or read my post where I explained what I meant.

Either way’s good.

For the rest of you whom object to that stuff. Are you for real ?.
You’re complaining cos the world ain’t the way YOU want it to be ?.

Are you suggesting that we just accept every injustice then 😕
I dont really get what your point is tbh. Bad stuff happens when peol.e choose to do bad stuff but we should do nothing – for the triumph of eveil all that is necessary is good people do nothing.

Of course, if we as a society are morally perfect and an example to all in tackling prejudice and endorsing what is right or wrong, then we should set about changing and educating the world to our high standards Wasn’t that the excuse we used to send missionaries around the world????

Challenging racism and other wrongs is some sort of Imperilaism and until we are perfect we should do nothing – christ did you take a hyperbole pill this morning? Its a huge leap you have made there and there may be some middle ground between doing nothing and Imperialsitically impossing our standards on the world due to arrogance- you are aware of basic universal human rights or is that just some more arrogance?

“I’m black, and man – I HATE ****!!”

Comedians often say things they dont really mean for comedic effect and to highlight something.
I doubt even you think he is full of self loathing and he really does hate **** or he would be ok with actual racism.

Its interesting though we would lall laugh if he said something or perhaps Jimmy Carr or Frankie Boyle

However if Jim davidson said it them we would get a diferent reaction

As mentioned previously it is the intent the words convey not necessarily the actual words that matter
Ie Someoen could be racist without using racist language[ nick Griffin when he thinks he is being filmed for example] or you could use racist language without being racist [ though you would likely be inconsiderate, insensitive or ignorant]

Racism perpetuates as we don’t correct others around us.

Being ‘white’ I’ve had people (usually casual strangers) mention in conversation about blacks etc. Once I stopped the fella and said ‘at what point did I come across as though I have a racist attitude’? (that was on a testdrive in a Merc at a Merc main dealer).

Ex-colleague was telling me his Dad employed a lad in his garage on work experience and his nickname was ****-Pete. Poor young 16yr old lad. Hes going to grow up thinking white adult men are **** ****. I didn’t laugh and said it wasn’t fair/out of order.

Unless you stop someone who finds it funny it’ll just perputuate.

So back to the original word. If someone says ‘lets have a chinky’- they are usually mono-browed, anglo-saxon of low-education trying to belittle someone.

I have two women that work for me (as in I’m their manager, nothing sinister!), one from Zimbabwe and the other from Ghana. They despise each other based purely on race and the comments that they chunter between each other are shocking. I’ve had to speak to them both about their behaviour in the office.

Incidentally, the girl from Zimbabwe asked me what my mum would think if I introduced her to my mum, I replied that my mum doesn’t have any issues with me dating a black girl. She was massively offended as apparently she prefers to be called ‘coloured’ which I thought was classed as racist. Live and learn as they say…

I thought you were Jewish?

OOPS! double post

you are aware of basic universal human rights or is that just some more arrogance?

Whilst I basically agree with you the concept of universal human rights is a western construction.

You’re complaining cos the world ain’t the way YOU want it to be ?.

Isn’t this kind of the point of democracy?

basic universal human rights

People have mentioned ‘free speech’ when discussing the right to use terms that others may deem racist.

As far as I’m aware free speech is only permitted as long as it doesn’t contravine human rights.

As mentioned previously it is the intent the words convey not necessarily the actual words that matter
Ie Someoen could be racist without using racist language[ nick Griffin when he thinks he is being filmed for example] or you could use racist language without being racist [ though you would likely be inconsiderate, insensitive or ignorant]

My wife would still be upset if someone used the term chinky in her presence even if they didn’t mean it in a derogatory way. Up until last night she had never heard the term before (in reference to Chinese take-aways), which might suggest that most people know not to use it in the company of Chinese people.

There you go.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4[/video]

Where do people stand on what some would call “casual racism” in banter between lifelong friends of differing races? Right, wrong, evil, ok?

Reason I ask is because we were talking about it the other week in the pub. I grew up in Luton and a few of us had a little catch up recently – we’ve known each other for 31 of our 35 years – I’m of mixed Irish/english/Romany gypsy blood, one of the guys is of Jamaican parentage, one of Kashmiri parentage, one of Italian parentage. As you’d expect, in the years we have known each other, we’ve experienced lots and had highs and lows, so nothing is taboo in conversation. Anyways, we are at a point in our collective relationship where we all rib each other endlessly about anything & everything. One of the lads jokingly said “can you imagine if someone overheard our banter” and it started me thinking. Would anyone have the right to be offended, or (as one of the others said) “they have no right to be offended as they shouldn’t have been eavesdropping”?

Thoughts? I know where I stand on it.

The people who call Chinese takeaways Chinky’s. Would you use that term infront of a Chinese person?

Doubt it. Stop trolling and/or grow up.

I give it 5 minutes, Woppit.

Anyone who lets a colleague/friend etc make a racist comment either needs to man up or find new friends.

There are certain exceptions to this, where I find you have to give a bit of leeway Hora.

My best mate would be considered rascist by a lot of people. For example he constantly refers to ‘rag-heads’. But then he is just back from the Afghan (again). And as he’s referring to the people who’ve been enthusiastically trying to kill him, I tend to let it slide

She was massively offended as apparently she prefers to be called ‘coloured’ which I thought was classed as racist.

I got pulled up a little while ago for using the word “coloured” as it’s apparently racist. Made me vexed because I used it specifically to try and avoid using any potentially derogatory language.

Then I got to thinking, you know, whilst I don’t agree that country contractions are inherently racist (compare ****, Brit, Scot, Pole, Iti, etc), I’m happy to avoid using them as I understand that some people find them offensive (rightly or not). However, when we’re getting into the realms of “black / brown / white / coloured” now being offensive, I really don’t think the the problem here lies with the speaker. What next, differently pigmented? We’re running out of words.

Fundamentally, we’re heading towards a situation where words are becoming viewed as ‘racist’ purely because they’re used to describe a demographic and racists speak the same language we do. So we start saying (for example) “coloured” to attempt to safely refer to someone non-caucasian, then the racists start using the same word, hey presto it’s suddenly a ‘racist’ term and we’ve to find something else. It’s a race condition we can’t win unless we force racists to start speaking Esperanto or something.

Lunacy.

My best mate would be considered rascist by a lot of people. For example he constantly refers to ‘rag-heads’. But then he is just back from the Afghan (again). And as he’s referring to the people who’ve been enthusiastically trying to kill him, I tend to let it slide

Raghead is a derogatory (and generalising) term. Its not racist per-se. Its an insult just as being referred to as an ‘Infidel’ is (which is more common than you think)…

My wife would still be upset if someone used the term chinky in her presence even if they didn’t mean it in a derogatory way. Up until last night she had never heard the term before

Sorry, why would she be upset about a term she’s never heard before? Am I missing something?

Junkyard – Member
Challenging racism and other wrongs is some sort of Imperilaism and until we are perfect we should do nothing – christ did you take a hyperbole pill this morning? Its a huge leap you have made there and there may be some middle ground between doing nothing and Imperialsitically impossing our standards on the world due to arrogance- you are aware of basic universal human rights or is that just some more arrogance?

I guess we couldn’t agree twice in 24 hours then JY!! 😉 {although we are probably more than 50% on the same wave length!)

No, I didn’t take a hyperbole pill. I was merely responding to DD’s direct and your more subtle criticism. The one area of consistency throughout this thread seems to be the notion that racism is “context specific.” My point is that our, for the sake of argument “British”, context may well be very different from others. I have tested this idea with the John Terry case and different countries view each of the three words (FBC) with different degrees of distaste for example. What “is” arrogant is the idea that we have the monopoly on defining universal human rights including what is and isn’t racist. The logical extension of this idea was the concept of imposing Christianity around the world via missionaries. And I can guess your views on that! To return to the original point of the thread – IMO the use of the words Chinky and **** is, in the UK context, unacceptable and worthy of nothing other than contempt. However, seeing the same word (Pak/****) as a headline in the Times of India is something entirely different.

Sorry, why would she be upset about a term she’s never heard before? Am I missing something?

She’s heard and been called that term before, she just hasn’t heard anyone use it to refer to a Chinese take away. But due to the meaning she associates it, she would be upset.

What “is” arrogant is the idea that we have the monopoly on defining universal human rights including what is and isn’t racist

Well given our travails with the european courts and prisoners voting I , for one, will not be arguing that we alone can define these things.
Not sure anyone has argued one country can have they?

FWIW I am no fan of article 17 but I bet you are 😉

However a broad church of political and international members probably can find things that [ nearly all] agree are universal.
I am not sure that having international rights means we must inevitable [ logically] impose it with force, invasion and conquest though. We could try just persuade them with our arguments – unless they have oil, dont like us, we can definetly win and they are not mates with Russia or China.

Everything is context with language and also intent.]As noted above th eterm black was deemd to be offensive but no offense was meant

flange – Member
…..she prefers to be called ‘coloured’ which I thought was classed as racist. Live and learn as they say…

And my west indian wife, get’s very offended at being called “coloured”, she’s “black” dont you know, and don’t forget it…

Like I said a few pages ago and someone said this morning, educate yourself about who and what is deemed offensive and react politely. Different people and contexts could lead to different things being acceptable although of course there are overriding commonalities/generisms.

Coloured refers to a hue/colouring in- a really weird term IMO.

Good JY, then we are back in agreement.

BTW, which Article 17 – the Univeral HR one ie, property rights? Three years ago, I shared a platform in Africa with Hernando de Soto, and found his ideas interesting re the role of property rights and emerging market development. So your assumption in this case, may well be correct!! 😉

The people who call Chinese takeaways Chinky’s. Would you use that term infront of a Chinese person?

Doubt it. Stop trolling and/or grow up.
I use the terms “fat”, “obese”, “overweight” and occasionally “lard-ass”, “blimp” etc to describe people but out of politeness I wouldn’t do so in their presence. Do I need to grow up?

If someone says ‘lets have a chinky’- they are usually mono-browed, anglo-saxon of low-education trying to belittle someone.

I also think it’s quite interesting that a lot of people are equating racism with “low-education”. Do you really think that only “thick” people can be racist? Or are you saying that all “thick” people are racist? It all comes off as very superior – surely people can’t help if they were born a genius or born less intelligent? Isn’t it offensive to pigeonhole people in such a way? Why try to be so divisive?

grum – Member
“What a complicated world we live in.” – V8ninety
It’s not really that difficult is it?

After 7 pages, still think its not complicated? I’ve been called monobrowed and low educated by Hora (!) because I’ll admit to having previously used the term chinky’ in the same way as I’d refer to a McDonald’s as a ‘maccys’, the possible racial connotations having genuinely not occurred to me. Following this thread I won’t be any more though, it would make me uncomfortable. (It would never have crossed my mind to use the word to describe an individual).

We’ve had people, deliberately trying to avoid offending people, actually causing massive offence by using the term black and/or coloured.

I’ve led someone to believe that I’ve got an issue with the ‘oppression of the white man’ just because I was trying to say racism has more to do with the ignorance than the skin colour of the racist individual.

But it’s not complicated, no.

I use the terms “fat”, “obese”, “overweight” and occasionally “lard-ass”, “blimp” etc to describe people but out of politeness I wouldn’t do so in their presence. Do I need to grow up?

You need to realise that someone fat can diet and that someone chinese can do nothing about this fact
You can form judgements on folk based on things they “choose” to do if you wish but, in general, if you wont say it to their face its probably better to not say it behind their back.

Re low education

They probably think that , on average, the IQ of racists is lower than the IQ of non racists
Interestingly recent reseacrh links racism, conservatism and prejudice to low IQ

The research finds that children with low intelligence are more likely to hold prejudiced attitudes as adults. These findings point to a vicious cycle, according to lead researcher Gordon Hodson, a psychologist at Brock University in Ontario. Low-intelligence adults tend to gravitate toward socially conservative ideologies, the study found. Those ideologies, in turn, stress hierarchy and resistance to change, attitudes that can contribute to prejudice, Hodson wrote in an email to LiveScience….. there is reason to believe that strict right-wing ideology might appeal to those who have trouble grasping the complexity of the world.

“Socially conservative ideologies tend to offer structure and order,” Hodson said, explaining why these beliefs might draw those with low intelligence. “Unfortunately, many of these features can also contribute to prejudice.”

to be clear it also said this

There are multiple examples of very bright conservatives and not-so-bright liberals, and many examples of very principled conservatives and very intolerant liberals,” Hodson said.

Nosek gave another example to illustrate the dangers of taking the findings too literally.

“We can say definitively men are taller than women on average,” he said. “But you can’t say if you take a random man and you take a random woman that the man is going to be taller. There’s plenty of overlap.”

Maccy’s?

It shows that you have no empathy on a basic level at the least. Just because its routine for you to call it a chinky because others past the word onto you doesn’t mean you should perpetuate this further.

If you’d only use this term in your immediate social/family circle then it shows you have a ‘us and them’ attitude to a different race/nationality.

Rather than froth at the gills over crass naivety I’m also out.