Cameron states "Britain is still a Christian country"

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  • Cameron states "Britain is still a Christian country"
  • hora
    Member

    I dont wear a religious beard, hat, etc. Christianity is more subtle. He lives in you heart OP.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    The UK is by virtue of the fact that it’s a by default religion, as you said at school it’s part of the day. There was a very long thread about it a week or so ago when he kicked off with his easter message.

    It results in people ticking the box christian on the census which makes the stats work, people go with the flow of having a religion based on what they were brought up with. Very few make it to ticking atheist, if the question was about being a practicing x,y or z or none of the above the numbers would be significantly lower.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Subscriber

    B&Q was shut yesterday. That’s all the proof I need.

    ask1974
    Member

    I get that not all Christians wear a badge and I suppose statistics support his comments to some to some extent, but religion is such a contentious subject labelling our country ‘Christian’ is going to erk someone. I’m not sure that in this day and age politicians should be making such sweeping generalisations. I’m one of the 25% who happily ticks the ‘no religion’ box but I’m also British… As I said I’m not that bothered but I feel a little uncomfortable when politics and religion are mixed together.

    teef
    Member

    Most people start off as religious due to indoctrination as a child by parents, school, church, etc. By the time they’re teenagers or young adults they’re most likely agnostic and leave it at that. It’s only a minority that make the next step to becoming atheist. So we’re probably an Agnostic country – certainly not a Christian country.

    hora
    Member

    Is it cool to rebel though? As a society/youth.

    Christian as a practising religion? No. Christian as in the principles of the faith? Certainly not, and even more so in Cameron’s case!

    hora
    Member

    Not by a Christian poet but a beautiful poem non the less:
    I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He
    was not there; I went to the Temple of the
    Hindus and to the old pagodas, but I could not
    find a trace of Him anywhere.

    I searched on the mountains and in the valleys
    but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I
    able to find Him. I went to the Ka’bah in Mecca,
    but He was not there either.

    I questioned the scholars and philosophers but
    He was beyond their understanding.

    I then looked into my heart and it was there
    where He dwelled that I saw Him; He was
    nowhere else to be found.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    maybe it’s not rebeling hora but finding some free will and realising that it’s not for you.

    People get to make a decision consciously or unconsciously but few get past the agnostic but don’t know it stage.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Subscriber

    Not sure how that poem is beautiful. It seems to be saying that all other religions are wrong and science is wrong. Our way is the only way. Doesn’t look good for God’s claimed omnipresence either. Each to their own, though.

    Premier Icon wallop
    Subscriber

    I dunno, I’ve never thought of myself as a Christian. I don’t believe in god but I admire those who have a faith.

    I still seem happy enough to celebrate Christmas, though!

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    It doesn’t even rhyme!

    JCL
    Member

    Oh yeah Britain’s really Christian. It’s one of the most materialistic, capitalist cultures in the world.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    JCL just following the lead of the lot in the Vatican, the original multi national ๐Ÿ™‚

    ask1974
    Member

    That Poem reminds me of the film ’Stigmata’, epic film and presents religion in a way that I found interesting. The idea that belief is from within and that’s where you’ll find god, not in churches etc…

    Must dig that out again. I might not believe but that’s one hell of a movie. Thanks Hora ๐Ÿ˜€

    Off for a ride, catch up with this later.

    ask1974
    Member

    Really? Should politicians mix religion and work? Seems 50 odd academics, scientists and others think not and I’m inclined to believe them. Can’t say his comments particularily bother me, I have a pretty large social circle and can’t think of any of my friends who are religious. In fact the last time I saw any (daily) religious activity was twenty years ago when it was forced on me at school. Hmmm,…

    Are we a Christian nation?

    link

    teef
    Member

    I still seem happy enough to celebrate Christmas, though!

    Christmas isn’t really a Christian festival – it’s the pagan midwinter festival that the Christians just hijacked and renamed. All the fun parts of Christmas – Feasting, presents, decorations, singing predate the boring Christian stuff. Same with Easter – it’s the pagan Spring festival celebrating new life – hence Easter bunnies, eggs, chicks, etc.

    So you’re really celebrating pagan festivals not Christian ones.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Subscriber

    Hmmmm. Alice says Cameron is wrong. Alice in the post

    DrRSwank
    Member

    The original statement is probably based on census data. It seems to me that when people in the UK aren’t religious they tend to say they’re CofE.

    So Cameron is probably saying Britain doesn’t care about religion in the main…..

    And the comments above about Pagan crossover aren’t entirely true. The Christians didn’t steal the festivals, they just chose to celebrate the life and death of a key figure using the same dates to avoid confusion.

    You’re born. You live a good life. You die. Done.

    sc-xc
    Member

    Not by a Christian poet but a beautiful poem non the less:

    There once was a bloke called Jesus
    Actually, there wasn’t.

    Premier Icon bearnecessities
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    B&Q was shut yesterday. That’s all the proof I need.

    Tell me about it. Thankfully, in repentance, they opened at 7am this morning.

    JCL
    Member

    JCL just following the lead of the lot in the Vatican, the original multi national

    Yeah good point.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    There once was a bloke called Jesus
    Actually, there wasn’t.

    There probably was. He probably said some of the things attributed to him. He was probably even crucified.

    But he wasn’t the son of God, didn’t perform any miracles, wasn’t resurrected, and didn’t ascend into heaven.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
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    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc[/video]

    Fueled
    Member

    … but I admire those who have a faith.

    Out of interest, why?

    bencooper
    Member

    B&Q was shut yesterday. That’s all the proof I need

    Not in Scotland it wasn’t ๐Ÿ˜‰

    konabunny
    Member

    he said he felt the โ€œhealing powerโ€ of faith in his own life.

    I admire his commitment to a secular Britain – it certainly can’t have been easy to separate his divisive capitalcentric politics from the healing power of faith in his private life.

    He is correct.

    aP
    Member

    What ever Cameroon says has almost no relevance to most people, all he’s attempting to do is win back some of the current UKIP supporters in time for the local and MEP elections in May. If that works expect a lot more reference to religiosity in the lead up to the general election next year, oh, and some insane tax cuts.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    He is correct.

    He is correct in the narrow constitutional sense that we continue to have an established Church.

    In terms of the beliefs of the majority of the population, he is incorrect.

    There’s nothing Christian in Christianity. Look at the years of rule by fear and manipulation of the weak and poor. The same goes for today, it is just more subtle than in the Middle Ages or during the Inquisition. All religion breeds is intolerance and hatred of others that have different way of interpreting the same books. For that reason i’m out. Too many people have died because some coward in a cape has decreed that their views are not worthy.
    So perhaps we as a Country, are ‘Christian’? Although I like to think that we have one of the most tolerant societies around. Although idiots in UKIP, BNP, EDL and the Conservatives would willingly plunge us back in to the white, British supremacist days at the click of ones fingers.
    On that note, I’m heading out on t’old mountain cycle.

    There’s nothing Christian in Christianity

    FTFY plus a lot of non-white Christians including Archbishops in this country and elsewhere.

    Enjoy the ride.

    Premier Icon maccruiskeen
    Subscriber

    It seems to me that when people in the UK aren’t religious they tend to say they’re CofE.

    Perhaps they used to, not sure if thats still true. It used to be the polite answer

    Theres a difference between religion and faith and you can be part of one and not have the other. Its far too nebulous a question to be able to have everyone answer the question by ticking yes or no. And over different decades when the census is taken the questions and answers have different meanings. There are times and places where you could ask the question where people would describe themselves as Christian regardless of whether they actively practice any kind of religious observance. Currently though atheism is quite fashionable, or rather expressing atheism is, so people are more likely define themselves as positively atheist rather than passively part of a christian tradition.

    But where religion has a different context the answer to the question might be different. In the west of scotland you might define yourself as catholic or protestant on the basis of which football team you support, even if you haven’t stepped inside a church for all your adult life, and obviously in NI your political position is mixed up with religious identity, and in that instance you may well feel that both your religion and your politics are something you’ve been born into rather than chosen or objectively assessed.

    The US is quite interesting in this respect, statistically a very christian country, but genetically and socially not very different to us. In the US church-going is very much the social norm, and its the norm whether you have any firmly held belief or not. During his election campaign Obama was hit with one of those ‘When did you stop beating your wife’ questions and it was to do with the pastor of the church he attended and some quite radical views they held. The reality was Obama would have had no idea what views the pastor held as he wasn’t actually going to church. He’d done what a lot of people do – say (when asked) that he attends a church that has a huge congregation – so big that way nobody notices that your not actually there. And you say/do that out politeness, its more polite to lie about your religious commitments than to say you don’t have any.

    Premier Icon maccruiskeen
    Subscriber

    In terms of the beliefs of the majority of the population, he is incorrect.

    ‘Beliefs’ in what sense? Our moral, legal, family and social codes are all quite christian even if very few of us acquired those codes through studying the bible. Our national identity is tied to those codes, and those codes are part of a christian tradition.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    ‘Beliefs’ in what sense? Our moral, legal, family and social codes are all quite christian even if very few of us acquired those codes through studying the bible.

    As I understand it, to be a Christian you need to believe that Jesus Christ is the resurrected son of an all powerful personal God, who died for our sins such that we can have eternal life. In that sense.

    The basis of our society, morals, etc. are both, pre-Christian, Christian, and post-Christian. Most ‘Christian’ beliefs and morals pre-date Christianity.

    I’m not into human sacrifice cults myself but Britian’s religious infrastructure makes it a christian nation no doubt. The numbers seem to say Britain is a secular state though.

    gwaelod
    Member

    If our moral and legal codes are christian, why do so many Christians, including the church of england itself,discriminate against women and homosexuals?

    Premier Icon maccruiskeen
    Subscriber

    Most ‘Christian’ beliefs and morals pre-date Christianity.

    Indeed – but they’re quite neatly collectively summarised as ‘Christian’

    Its true there are elements of Christian tradition that predate our adoption of Christianity, but modern druidic and pagan practises are far removed from any properly traditional national identity. They’re a mixture of victorian and 1980s new age fantasies and not part of any continuation of a pre-christian way of life.

    Premier Icon maccruiskeen
    Subscriber

    If our moral and legal codes are christian, why do so many Christians, including the church of england itself,discriminate against women and homosexuals?

    Do you know how many christians discriminate on that basis? There may be an official position but it doesn’t mean every single letter and word announced from the pulpit defines the thoughts and feelings of the congregation. They can actually think for themselves.

    Do you know how many non christians discriminate against women and homosexuals?

    Do you know whether these levels of discrimination are more or less common or overt amongst either group?

    We cannot not be a christian country under the present constitution which ties us to the church of england and the monarchy.
    This is of course getting very out of touch with the electorate who over the last 150 years are assuredly less inclined to go to church, pray and have a personal relationship with JC.

    I also understand that the leader of a country with the C of E so wrapped up in its constitution should be expected to make some press in the middle of Holy Week (after all its more important than christmas for proper christians, non?)

    Sadly much of this this reeks of opportunism on Cameron’s part. I would like to have heard Justin Welby comment more on this story (well perhaps he did but it wasn’t soundbite-worthy enough. I would imagine that Welby’s predecessor would have had something contentious to say along the lines of politicians cherry-picking the bits of christianity Jesus’ teachings that fit their agendas (humility, be thankful for what the lord hath given thee) and leaving out the bits that don’t (unconditional love of thy neighbour or anyone else’s neighbour, redistribution of riches, turn the other cheek etc).

    [edit] re-read that and i sound like a right god-botherer! FWIW I am a well-read ‘backslider’ ๐Ÿ˜‰ . Fond of the values, not so fond of the church.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Indeed – but they’re quite neatly collectively summarised as ‘Christian’

    Or, human. They’re human morals and behaviours which most religions hold in common.

    Claiming them as Christian is divisive.

    ninfan
    Member

    If only there was some form of survey, in which they went out and asked not just a representative sample, but actually asked everyone by giving them a form to fill in, perhaps once every ten years?

    Then we could have a chance to see what religion people actually self identified as!

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/rpt-religion.html

    In the 2011 Census, Christianity was the largest religion, with 33.2 million people (59.3 per cent of the population). The second largest religious group were Muslims with 2.7 million people (4.8 per cent of the population).

    14.1 million people, around a quarter of the population in England and Wales, reported they have no religion in 2011.

    7.2 per cent of people did not answer the question.

    So, a clear majority of the population identified themselves as being Christian, one has to wonder what more it would take to prove that we’re still a christian country?

    Obviously, we’ll get the usuals on here telling them that these stupid people were wrong about their own belief in god and religion and that despite them actually saying they were christian, it was all conditioning and in reality they’re not…

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Obviously, we’ll get the usuals on here telling them that these stupid people were wrong about their own belief in god and religion and that despite them actually saying they were christian, it was all conditioning and in reality they’re not…

    Just to prove you right:

    Most people ticking the Christian box on the census do so because they were christened, not because they’ve accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour.

    Not because they’re stupid, but because the question is badly worded.

    Premier Icon MSP
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    And the 390,000 people who reported themselves as Jedi, really are Jedi.

    Premier Icon maccruiskeen
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    Or, human. They’re human morals and behaviours which most religions hold in common.

    Claiming them as Christian is divisive.

    Not really – not all of them. If you marry within a christian tradition for instance- either church wedding or a secular registry office one, thats quite a different contract to, for instance, a Mormon one. A british secular marriage is a different legal contract to a jewish one or an islamic one. Even as an unmarried atheist my relationship still has more in common with christian marriage than some other traditions. Even areas where morals choices don’t seem to apply – like finance and lending differ from one religious tradition to another.

    And if ultimately religions had all the same morals and behaviours in common then there’d be a lot less fuss and bother than we seem to experience ๐Ÿ™‚

    But I don’t think the Christian tradition ‘claims’ any traditions as its own to the exclusions of all others. Mormons aren’t stuck with polygamy because the pope called bagsey on monogamy. I’m not barred from being charitable because I haven’t been baptised.

    Most people ticking the Christian box on the census do so because they were christened, not because they’ve accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour.

    You’re asking christians to be very black and white in their thinking.

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