Brexit benefits – lets start a list

You **** what?!

Am I not a vocal and persistent Brexit critic? Have I not excoriated it many times over the years? On this very thread a few pages back I explain why it is not something that can be moved on from.

Why then do you persist with the myths that

1) Its irreversible
2) that labour need to take a pro brexit decision

3) refute that the very first thing we need to do to combat the decline is reverse brexit

No brexit did not come from the blue but until its reversed the UK will continue to decline and the things you want to see improved are much much harder.  Brexit came from manipulation of the voters by a small cabal for their own purposes

Until the UK political establishment start telling the truth about brexit then it will remain as the single biggest thing damaging the UK.  Its totally corrupted public life for example

Brexit is not irreversible TJ, but for folk our age it probably is.
I’m hoping my sons get it live in a more open and inclusive world than we do – much as we might wish we did now.

However, Brexit was pretty much a non-issue a during the last Labour administration, and peak Brexit popularity was in 2014. It was waning by 2016 and just squeaked in.  So I may be overestimating how long it will take.

The time to be part of a free Europe again is some time in the future.  The time to start fighting for it was 2016, and failing that, now.

Yes there are other issues, but Brexit contributes to several of them and solves none. In a democratic country we get to change our minds, and that’s a decision worth changing our minds about.

Brexit is not irreversible TJ, but for folk our age it probably is.

Why?  If labour had been putting the blame on the tories where it should be and repudiating brexit strongly pointing out all the ill consequences how much more would the public mood have turned?  its now 2:1 rejoin.

Labour are now a bigger obstacle to rejoin than the tories.  their position holds no logic nor sense and by blatantly lying as they are they pollute political discourse.

Why then do you persist with the myths that

1) Its irreversible
2) that labour need to take a pro brexit decision

3) refute that the very first thing we need to do to combat the decline is reverse brexit

Ok first of all – you go straight in with referring to my points as ‘myths’ as if that’s in any way a provable fact. That is passive-agressive behaviour, please don’t do this. You’re being egregious again.

So I’ll try to engage more nicely 🙂

1) I don’t think it’s irreversable.

2) Labour don’t need to be pro Brexit, and I don’t believe they are. They just need to move on from the whole toxic debate, for the time being. Remember, their core vote was split down the middle, and it would be a disaster for that to happen again. It’s not about ideology or policy here, it’s just about getting votes. You m may not like that, but it’s the reality of democracy.

3) It’s not politically possible here in the UK to reverse the decision immediately. Most of the electorate would go ‘oh **** no not this shit again’ and be very unhappy. There are (or were) polls that said that whilst a lot of people thought it had been a bad idea, they thought that we should just get on with it for now. This is all about the question being asked: Being in favour of something hypothetically is not the same as wanting to do it right now instead of other things.

The biggest issue we face right now are ending austerity and funding services properly. And I’m far more concerned with Starmer’s stance on that than I am regarding the EU because whilst as you know I am passionately pro-EU, I accept the political reality that Starmer faces. Remember that whilst you love political shit-slinging, most people hate it and he knows that he needs people’s support not antipathy.

I think the upshot of molgrip’s post is that someone somewhere has to put forward definite policies the “re-engage” with Europe in order to mitigate the damage inflicted by Brexit given that there is little chance of rejoining the EU in the foreseeable future.

Play nicely 🙂

AllI want is an honest policy on brexit from labour and again you put the myths as facts – those are not just your or opinions – they are myths

There is no reason why labour could not be going wholeheartedly for rapproachment with the EU.  Thats a myth that they cannot

Labour are pro brexit – they have become a brexiteer party.  Thats just a simple statement of fact.  They have adopted a hard brexit position.

I think the upshot of molgrip’s post is that someone somewhere has to put forward definite policies the “re-engage” with Europe in order to mitigate the damage inflicted by Brexit given that there is little chance of rejoining the EU in the foreseeable future.

Why is there little chance?  Labour are not doing that anyway.  SNP are.  Rejoin ASAP is firm policy and despite all their troubles are still going to be the largest party in Scotland after the next GE.

No one will explain why this myth that we cannot rejoin in the foreseeable is reality – there is no reason at all bar political couwardice

AllI want is an honest policy on brexit from labour and again you put the myths as facts – those are not just your or opinions – they are myths

What’s the difference between my opinion of a situation and a myth?

Using that word does not count as ‘playing nicely’.

No one will explain why this myth that we cannot rejoin in the foreseeable is reality

I’m trying to. You call it political cowardice, I call it prudence. You can’t just do whatever YOU want as a political leader – because you need millions of people to vote for you. You would end up brave but out of power.

The polls that say ‘we would like to rejoin’ are not enough. There are way more factors than that. There is more to running a country than being in or out of the EU, and there is more to winning votes than picking a single issue, especially a highly contentious one.

We CAN theoretically rejoin immediately. But I think that any UK-wide party that puts this at the top of their manifesto would lose a lot of votes. SKS agrees with me.

Farage admitted the £350 mil thing was not true on QT before the vote. I remember clearly.

Thats not what the polls show Molgrips – the polls show a policy of rapproachement would be a clear vote winner.  2:1 rejoin and a policy of rapproacment would mean giving all the blame for the mess to the tories rather than taking some of it themselves.  I understand why Starmer chose that path – and its all due to political cowardice.  He backed the wrong horse in his acceptance of brexit, caused even more damage to the country as a result, gave the Tories a free ride onit and went against the interests and wishes of the majority of  labour voters.  Where is the leadership?

Why are they myths?  Because they have become accepted wisdom without anything to backit up.  Thats what  myth is

Brexit is at the core of everything, directly and indirectly.

Hmm. I’ll disagree. Brexit is a symptom of even deeper problems.

Point of order here, these two notions are not incompatible.

Brexit was fuelled by those “deeper problems” but the issue really is that it was presented as a boil-in-the-bag solution to all our ills before any questions were asked. It’s my perpetual PC fiddler uncle ringing up asking me how to reinstall Windows when the actual problem is that his printer has run out of yellow ink. Sure, I can talk you through a rebuild but no-one’s stopped to ask why you want to do a reinstall and at the end of the day you’ll still be out of ink.

But why do we have Brexit? A seed needs fertile ground in which to grow. Brexit did not start in 2015.

Ooh, ooh, hold my beer, I have an actual brexit benefit!

All those racists that we thought had gone away in our more progressive times but were actually hiding in plain sight? They’ve felt empowered to speak up, we know who they are now.

There are (or were) polls that said that whilst a lot of people thought it had been a bad idea, they thought that we should just get on with it for now.

Yeah, no. The thing you need to understand, the thing that even now the Remain voters are only just beginning to realise, is that whilst many (not all, Daz) Leave voters were useful idiots, the campaign itself was really clever. It was a masterclass in deception. It utterly demolished the Remain argument because we were trying to appeal to the head rather than the heart, naively believing that people care about things like “facts” in the face of MPs crowing that we’ve all had enough of experts.

But.

It persists.

It’s been sewn into the heads of the proletariat that, perversely, changing our minds would be undemocratic. We had a vote, right? Will of the people. Why do you hate democracy? Etc etc.

Not only have we been sold a unicorn which turned out wholly predictably to be a zebra with an ice cream cone Araldited to its forehead, we’ve been brainwashed into thinking it cannot be questioned/challenged/reviewed and then attempted to be bullied into silence. How many times have we heard narratives along the lines of “accepting the result” or “shut up and get on with it” or “we won you lost”?

These bawbags don’t care. In the red corner we have those believing that it has to be this way because Democracy/Sovereignty, in the blue corner we see the “leave means leave” brigade who just wanted out, period. I reckon if we’d run a media propaganda campaign in September 2016 going “yeah, we’ve left now” 90% of the brexity populace would have gone “oh good” and all of this would have gone away. Yet instead we have this bizarre situation where… it’s like, you know the hypothetical “five monkeys” experiment?

Whoever it was who said earlier that brexit is a journey is bang on. If you think that their skulldugerous machinations have stopped because the last overstuffed sofa in DFS “got it done,” you’re a fool.

Why are they myths? Because they have become accepted wisdom without anything to backit up. Thats what myth is

I am not quoting accepted wisdom, it’s simply my opinion of what I see. Others may agree.

There are few facts in any of this.

Whoever it was who said earlier that brexit is a journey is bang on. If you think that their skulldugerous machinations have stopped

There was skullduggery by right wing **** long before Brexit and there will be long afterwards.

Why is there little chance?  Labour are not doing that anyway.  SNP are.

Well bully for Scotland. They will need independence fist but good luck to them on both counts. I appreciate the polls suggest a majority in favour of rejoining but then again the feeling pre-Brexit was that only idiots would vote for it. Polls eh?

2:1 in favour of rejoin and growing all the time

Its perfectly possible for a party to make rejoin a key pledge.

it’s simply my opinion of what I see.

That’s not allowed.

Its perfectly possible for a party to make rejoin a key pledge.

Not if they want to be in govt. TJ you’re far more politically savvy than this.

Its claiming its an immutable reality that is challenged.

I’m confident we’ll rejoin one day. 20 years easy.

Depends what there is to rejoin. If the EU heads further in the direction of federalism then no way, if it heads back to being more of an economic block then maybe. The UK will never give up its status as an independent nation state. It all depends on how the EU changes over the next 20 years.

Not if they want to be in govt. TJ you’re far more politically savvy than this.

I’m savvy enough to know Starmer is making a huge mistake and one the UK will never recover from

Of course if he hasd shown some leadership and personal strength by now the clamour to rejoin would be irresistible – its still 2:1 in favour of rejoin with labour and the tries denying it.  Starmer is fight against public opinion, against the wishes of his voters and against the interests of the country.  Imagine if he had shown some leadership?

Its a huge error and is a clear vote loser.  How come you think only the tories can mold public opinion?  I think it will cost him a working majority

Yes i am politically savvy enough to not take his feeble excuses as he morphed into a hard brexiteer and his frankly appalling pandering to a few racists

Oh and Dazh – back to the ” you cannot be an independent country in the EU”

So, they have the biggest poll lead ever, and you think his advisers should get him to completely change tactics?

Seriously?

too late now to change – he has nailed his colours to the hard brexiteer standard.  that does not stop it being a massive blunder.  None of the labour voters I know will vote labour now because of his enthusiastic adoption of a hardest of hard brexits and the damage to the cvountry willnever be recovered from

.  Its not the biggest poll lead ever.  Its barely enough for a majority inmost polls – especially the more accurate ones – and also the polling and recent byelections show how soft the labour vote is in that its not a vote for labour, its a vote against the tories and could easily fall again

His lead is thanks to the Tories. If you asked Joe Public what his policies were they would be dumbfounded, his missions and pledges keep changing and being scaled back anyway.

Im sorry, but my opinion is that folks, in the last couple of pages of this thread, keep stating that things are ‘facts’ when I do not agree that they are. I think there is a danger that many of us hang around and chat with like-minded people. So in such an environment, I think it is easy to convince ourselves that everyone thinks like us. I.e. dislike Brexit, and are keen for rapprochement.

But honestly, imo, I wouldn’t be surprised if a vote tomorrow wasnt much closer (again) than people like us think. I am 100% certain that there are a huge number of folks who voted for brexit first time around and who would do exactly the same again. ‘Facts’ and logic matter very little in any discussion with those brexit supporters. I assume that’s because it seemed to be an emotional subject, rather than a rational one.

so it’s easy for me to say here that brexit was a financial disaster and that every reasonable person knew that it would be. But there are millions of people who would disagree and say that the problem is that the remoaners stopped Boris and his buddies getting brexit done properly. Financial ‘facts’ don’t matter one whit to many of those people. Just like facts about the American election don’t seem to matter one whit to millions of Trump supporters. Again, it’s not rational debate that seems to matter – it’s an appeal to people’s emotional, deep-seated desires.

Its not the biggest poll lead ever. Its barely enough for a majority inmost polls

Oh?  Where do you get that information from?  Can you explain how the Politico average of all polls looks like this?

Those numbers – 45/27/ll – are enough for a 289 seat majority according to electoral calculus.

But honestly, imo, I wouldn’t be surprised if a vote tomorrow wasnt much closer

@johnhe that was probably the best post of this entire thread. You’re right, in fact I’d go further and say if the brexit vote was repeated tomorrow it would be a nailed on yes by roughly the same margin. It’s not a rational debate and rightly or wrongly many voters, both leave and remain are willing to see how it works out.

Nice justification for your position – shame the polls show remain or rejoin as 2:1 at least in favour and shifting further that way ( alot higher remain / rejointhan the polls before the vote) and thats with both main english parties being enthusiastic brexiteers.  No one who is for remain is ” waiting to see how it works out” Its very clear – its an utter disaster.

The lengths folk will go to to justify becoming hard brexiteers and supporting the labour position ……………………………..

Nice justification for your position

Not really you don’t even understand what my position is. All I’m saying is, with polls like that, you’d have a hard time convincing the party to stop what it’s doing and do something else.

with both main english parties being enthusiastic brexiteers

That’s a gross mis-representation.  You’re ruining the debate with stuff like this.

The lengths folk will go to to justify becoming hard brexiteers and supporting the labour position

And that’s even worse. I will get very **** angry if you call me a Brexiteer.

Aimed at Dazh molgrips.  I do understand your position.  I simply disagree with it

Both labour and tories are now hard brexiteers.  thats a simple fact.  Look at the positions of both.  the hardest of hard brexits. Its a complete pretense to deny it.  No CU,No SM. no 4 freedoms.  hard brexit.  Its not ruining the debate to point out the simple truth.  its not a misrepresentation.  Stamer has adopeted a hard brexit position and will not be shifted.  there is no debate if you deny this simple fact. labour are enthusiastic hard brexiteers – thats their policy ” make brexit work”

And that’s even worse. I will get very **** angry if you call me a Brexiteer.

Again aimed at Dazh – but if the hat fits?  Maybe brexit apologist for you because that is what you espouse on here.  You support labours hard brexit policy do you not?

I find it incredibly insulting to be told hard brexit with no rapprochement is the only way.  I find it offensive to be told black is white ie that labour are not enthusiastic hard brexiteers as a policy when thats what all the policy statements make them

Maybe brexit apologist for you because that is what you espouse on here.

Not even remotely the case. Your reading comprehension skills really are terrible.

I find it incredibly insulting to be told hard brexit with no rapprochement is the only way.

That’s not what I am saying and not what I have ever said. I’m in favour of full rejoin. The only difference is that I appreciate why Starmer can’t come out and say that now.  That’s all I’m saying.

This thread is like a roundabout with no exits, round and round and round they go 🤣

Yeah I’ve already decided not to engage any more.

How’s that flounce working out for you, Daz?

For someone who’s vocally proclaimed to be leaving, your fingers appear to be doing an awful lot of impotent flapping up and down still.

Anyway. Benefits, then?

This thread is like a roundabout with no exits, round and round and round they go

TBH it just embraces the true majesty of Brexit.

The greatest political machination ever played,it pushed the U.K. into an alternative fantasy reality.

The ultimate irony is Brexit delivers the exact opposite of what it promised,if it actually delivers anything at all.

Not even remotely the case. Your reading comprehension skills really are terrible.

What have I missed?

You state its impossible for labour to have a policy of rejoin and you support the labour policy of continuing hard brexit.

That’s not what I am saying and not what I have ever said. I’m in favour of full rejoin. The only difference is that I appreciate why Starmer can’t come out and say that now. That’s all I’m saying.

Makes my point that you support the labour policy of hard brexit

If you are in favour of rejoin how can you support a party that has hard brexit for ever as its policy?

The ultimate irony is Brexit delivers the exact opposite of what it promised, if it actually delivers anything at all.

I absolutely agree with the first part of the sentence, and absolutely disagree with the second part.

The folk who wanted Brexit to happen are the ones benefiting, and are the very same folk that persuaded the masses to vote for something totally against their interests.

Brexit is just the start as we are seeing, but as I’ve said before, it’s only once folk can’t afford healthcare that it’ll dawn on them what’s happening.

I do though disagree with TJ on Starmer/Labour, they’ve to get into power in England and to get into power they need enough Brexit-voters (or ex-Brexit voters) to vote for them – once in they can do what they want (back to First Past The Post), but they need to get in.

For Scotland I’ll continue to vote SNP, and so should he – they’re our Govt and our only way out of the mess that the UK is becoming for ordinary folk.

Oh dear, I can’t see a huge list of benefits just a lot of handbags at dawn. Maybe we should bring this thread to a close and start again.

and our only way out of the mess that the UK is becoming for ordinary folk.

And there in a single sentence is the nub of this. Many remainers simply don’t understand or refuse to acknowledge that for millions of people, the UK already was a mess for ordinary folk whilst we were in the EU. Everything has not suddenly got worse since we left in 2020. For the vast majority hardly anything has changed.

Many proponents of Leave simply didn’t give a shit that for some the UK already was a mess for ordinary folk whilst we were in the EU (Aaron Banks working class saviour – my arse!)  For some hardly anything has changed but the Leave ranks still don’t care. For lots of others things are worse and there still isn’t a list of Brexit benefits other than some people didn’t notice the post Brexit bit of a mess that hasn’t even full unwound yet. Fyfy

Everything has not suddenly got worse since we left in 2020. For the vast majority hardly anything has changed

Well it’s not a question of suddenly getting worse. We always knew that it would reduce our ability to do what we needed and respond to problems, by reducing our economic capability.  Life got worse for most in the EU due to COVID, the Ukraine war and the associated inflation, but we are not as able to recover from it.  We will face a gradual slide, not a sudden change.  We will boil like frogs, people won’t realise it.  In fact, we have been boiling like frogs for many years.

Now of course, it is theoretically possible to recover without being in the EU or to prosper, but it is being made much much harder.  And we cannot solve hard problems with the political institutions we have; we cannot even solve easy ones.  Because currently there is no will to do so.  We have very little competence across the whole political spectrum and we have now given ourselves a much harder challenge.