Brakes – Hope vs Shimano. An objective view

A couple of weeks ago I had to take my new Bronson back to Bothy Bikes for them to return the Fox 34 forks to Mojo for a warranty issue. While I was up in Aviemore I thought I would get a ride in, so borrowed Bothy Bikes’ demo Bronson. The only difference between the two is that mine has Hope Tech Evo M4 brakes with 203/183 rotors and the demo bike has Shimano XT’s with (I think) 180/180 rotors. An interesting opportunity therefore to directly compare the two brakes on otherwise identical bikes so please excuse the long post.

I should state up front that I love Hope brakes and have used them for the last 6-7 years, but will try to be as objective as possible. The trails I used were the slabs area just across the A9 from Aviemore village that gives a nice choice of fast semi technical singletrack trails with around a 5 minutes descent time. The best way to do the comparison is to split it into two sections:
Power and Performance
Design and Build

Power and Performance

Firstly forget about power. Which has more power and which comes out on top of the theoretical brake power tests in the mags is completely irrelevant. All you need to know is that both brakes are easily capable of locking up both ends using one finger braking.

How they deliver that power is quite different though. Anyone going from Hope to Shimano like me will find the Shimanos a bit grabby with not a huge amount of feedback with which to judge the lock up point. Going the other way round I can imagine a Shimano user at first finding the Hopes at first underpowered and a bit dead. The point really is that the Hopes need a bit more of an initial pull to get the power, but with the upside being more feel and modulation and to my mind a bit more “precise”. Very similar to jumping into a racing car compared to a normal road car – the initial impression is “where are the brakes?” as you have to give the pedal quite a shove to get the initial bite but ultimately lots of power and control. I am sure that with a longer ride I would have started to get more used to the Shimano characteristics.

The reach and bite point adjustability of the Hopes is better than the Shimanos and I personally love the feel of the Hope levers. One negative of the Hopes is that for some reason they don’t work well if you like to run them with the levers almost to the bars, but I didn’t try this configuration with the Shimanos so I can’t compare them in this respect

Design and Build

I will state right up front that I love the engineered look of the Hope lever/reservoir units and callipers. Looks and added bling capability aside they are also very crash resistant, the levers can be easily bent back into shape if needed and Hope are legendary for spare parts and serviceability if needed. The floating rotors are also lovely in combination with colour matched Hope hubs. In comparison, the Shimano lever/reservoir units and callipers look merely functional, to my mid a bit ugly, and probably not as crash resistant, but of course these things have no impact on performance for 99.9% of the time. The Shimano rotors especially look pretty low rent.

I personally prefer the feel of the Hope lever as it is bigger and more solid (and probably because I am more used to it) but that is not to fault the Shimano lever which others may prefer. The Hope lever is much longer than the Shimano which could be a positive or negative from your point of view. One thing it does allow is for the reservoir to be mounted well inboard so there is enough room for both shifters and a Reverb remote mounted under the bar, outboard of the brake.

As for set up, I don’t have any experience of bleeding the Shimanos, but the Hopes are dead easy just using a spanner and bleeding downwards. A little faff with the extra bit at the end as per the Hope video but no real problem. The Hope callipers are 4 pot compared to the Shimano 2 pot so are more of a fiddle to get properly set up and I ended up having 3 goes before they were right

Conclusions

For me the Hopes are clear absolute winners because of their feel in use, build quality, adjustability and looks. However I accept that others will prefer the feel of the Shimanos as this is subjective personal preference. That is not saying that the Shimanos are anything less than brilliant brakes, but all things being equal, in my opinion the Hopes are better. All things are not equal however, because the Tech Evo M4’s are more than 50% more expensive than the XT’s. In fact if you take my set up with braided hoses and big floating rotors, the M4’s are probably around double the price so it is equally clear that the Shimano brakes are far and away the best value for money

So the good news is that we have the choice of two different brakes with very different styles and equally brilliant in their own way. Which is best is just down to personal preference and priorities.

Own both, would agree with nearly all that. I’d say the Hope have enough effective adjustment that you can get them to feel just as (or very close to) immediate as the Shimano. The adjusters make a real difference (Shimano ones do little to nothing).

But, much as I like the Hopes (and Hope as a company, cust. service especially), the combination of value & performance of the Shimano stuff is unbeatable, I’d always advise people to buy Shimano.

Which is best is just down to personal preference and priorities.

& that covers every subject about purchasing anything on this godforsaken forum.

That is one of those in depth posts I hope to find when I am researching my next bike related purchase. Nice one.

I find this review anything but objective.

I should state up front that I love Hope brakes

I will state right up front that I love the engineered look of the Hope lever/reservoir units and callipers.

The floating rotors are also lovely in combination with colour matched Hope hubs. In comparison, the Shimano lever/reservoir units and callipers look merely functional, to my mid a bit ugly, and probably not as crash resistant,

I personally prefer the feel of the Hope lever as it is bigger and more solid (and probably because I am more used to it)

I’ve had both and liked them both. The cost difference is MASSIVE though.

so the review is based on 7 years on Hope v a mooch round on Shimano’s?

i found hope and shimano (servo wave brakes) chalk and cheese

it almost like when we moved from cantis (Hope) to V-Brakes (Shimano)

Shimano changed the game

I think for me, the issue isn’t about power between different brakes as they are much of a muchness. The main issues are servicing, parts availability and life. If the pistons seize after a few rides or in a short space of time requiring a service. How about setup of the calipers, fit and forget or fit and faff? That’s why I’m saving my pennies to get rid of my Juicy 7’s 😛

anything but objective

+1
Interesting to read your opinion but it is not objective.

Last month, I took a set of Avid Elixir R, Hope Tech M4s and Formula The One to Nevis Range and tried each set on the DH track (on my HT).

Came the following conclusions (in summary):

Avid Elixir (like every other Avid brake I’ve ever owned) are not very good. No idea how I keep ending up with sets (actually, yes I do, it’s because they’re often sold for under £50 and I just can’t say no!)

Hope Tech M4 – My second set of Tech M4s. Fairly powerful, nice to look at, usefully adjustable. But….weigh quite a bit, feel a wee bit wooden and suffer from brake fade sooner than i’d like (on 203mm!).

Formula The One – My first outing on Formula brakes. Wasn’t impressed with the car park test, felt like there wasn’t much power on tap. Oh how wrong I was. Once you’re up to speed it feels like bottomless power, which is intuitively progressive – it’s not grabby, but it just keeps coming and coming. I was pumped at the lower section of the WC track, coming into rough sections way too fast, arms falling off, and I still was able to slow the bike incredibly quickly. Something I couldn’t so on the Avids or Hopes. Can’t believe how powerful they are for the weight.

So, the Forumlas are on the bike. But, they are pretty expensive (have you seen how much rotors cost!)

My experience of Shimano brakes (not on this bike) is two sets of Saints and a set of SLX. I can’t comment from a back-to-back perspective, but all were very capable, if a wee bit grabby (for me anyway, I’m never sure why being able to lock the wheels is high up on the list of priorities for people), which I struggled with from time to time on loose/wet surfaces where I had a habit of losing the front end. Think that’s just due to my braking style, I don’t drag brakes, I tend to be on them or off them.

It’s hard to be objective about brakes because it’s all about feel and we all like different things.

I think for me, the issue isn’t about power between different brakes as they are much of a muchness. The main issues are servicing, parts availability and life.

This.

As the ‘review’ clearly states, all brakes are capable of stopping you effectively when they’re working properly. The significant differences are price, reliability and lever feel. And for me, Shimanos win on all three of those metrics. YMMV etc

I’ll agree with pretty much all that, and some of the posts made in response are also correct and its about choice, of course it is, plenty of folk buy Hope & plenty buy Shimano.

I would always buy HOPE ! Simple reason for me any way it works in the UK !
Headset, hubs, brakes,

I know hope have moved into the drivetrain department but I would never buy their running gear, for this I would always use SHIMANO.

I’m quite narrow minded in that respect, I won’t use any other peddle engagement only SPD, others are available obviously but I know what I know and wouldn’t sway too much from that, its a good review though and well written and if you are in the market and not sure then this is what the forum needs, honest reviews.

As a comparison my Nomad has Evo tech M4’s 183 / 183
I rode an identical set up save for the forks and the front end braking was washy in comparison as the forks on the donor bike were under Specced in my opinion, this totally affected braking.

Not really objective, but interesting never the less.

Noticed you didn’t make any comparison with weight of the above set ups, would have thought the Hope set up would be a fair bit heavier too.

I’ve got the last model Hope Minis on my bike (the black and silver ones).

I used to use Shimano, but I hated the looks. I wanted something that was beautifully CNC machined and shiney, and not made in a sweatshop by immigrants. I also like that fact the spares are available for Hope brakes, which means that when a seal or piston breaks after about 10 years use, I can buy a new one and spend hours and hours fitting it, rather than having to buy a whole new lever assembly for the princely sum of upto £25!

Initially I struggled with the performance of the Hopes, but after sessions with a Psychotherapist, I’ve managed to change my way of thinking and along with “slowing down” my riding, I now believe they are every bit as powerful as my old Shimanos.

I’d recommend them. Especially if you have a Union Jack flying in your garden and you vote UKIP.

I`ve always had Avids, never had a problem with Juicys until recently.
I have put an XT on the rear of the hardtail and its nice, loads of power etc but it doesn’t have the progression and feel of the Avids.
Not ridden Hopes for long enough to form an opinion.
Did have some formulas and they were lovely, again loads of feel and huge power, but a little difficult at the time to get spares for.

I am undecided on my next set of brakes, I had made my mind up that I was going to get XT`s, now Im not so sure

Avid Elixir (like every other Avid brake I’ve ever owned) are not very good.

Respectfully disagree.

What do you mean by “not very good”?

The main issues are servicing, parts availability and life.

Reliability is surely the most important issue. Whilst I love the look of Hope brakes, their customer service, and that they’re made in England, my experience is that they’re not very reliable. Plus they’re pretty much twice the cost of Shimano.

Respectfully disagree.

What do you mean by “not very good”?

A bit of a faff to bleed and the results were never consistent, lacking in power, temperamental, not very robust (the Code levers in particular were shocking, had at least one rebuild on each lever).

I’ve had a couple of sets of Juicys, two sets of Codes and a set of Elixir R. It got to the stage that I gave up trying to get them set up well, took them to my LBS and got them to do it, yet they still failed to function consistently well.

Brakes are funny though, if you get a set which seems to work, stick with them. I had a set of Tech M4 years ago which just worked perfectly. Still regret selling them eventually, was never able to get the replacement set (the exact same brake) working as well.

Having had a set of elixir r’s they were ad in many ways…

Lever feel
Snatch feel that may also be due to the stupid nobby nice too.
Not enough power
Going missing a bit during a long steep section

I have put an XT on the rear of the hardtail and its nice, loads of power etc but it doesn’t have the progression and feel of the Avids.

I had the same experience with SLX. Nice enough but just don’t feel as good as Avids to me. That being said I hate bleeding Avids and my bike’s in the shop at the minute as I gave up with trying to do them 😆

Next set of brakes will probably be Formula. Quite like my K18 apart from crap pad life.

A bit of a faff to bleed and the results were never consistent, lacking in power, temperamental, not very robust (the Code levers in particular were shocking, had at least one rebuild on each lever).

Fair enough. Maybe I’ve had good luck with the Avids I’ve had (3 sets of Elixirs and 1 set of original Codes). Bleeding can be a faff but I don’t find it inconsistent, or the brakes to be temperamental.

I think build quality is something Avid suffer from, going by the user reports, primarily the factory bleeds suck. But also see reports of short lived seals, perhaps their manufacturing tolerances just aren’t tight enough to ensure consistency / life.

How they deliver that power is quite different though. Anyone going from Hope to Shimano like me will find the Shimanos a bit grabby with not a huge amount of feedback with which to judge the lock up point. Going the other way round I can imagine a Shimano user at first finding the Hopes at first underpowered and a bit dead.

Yep.

so the review is based on 7 years on Hope v a mooch round on Shimano’s?

+1

OP- do you work for hope or maybe have friends that work there?
In my opinion, and that of the big group of people I ride with, Is that hope are hopeless and very much under powered, but as an excuse say they have better ‘modulation’ than Shimano.
I love the modulation on my xts btw and would never go back to being hopeless on the brakes! 😆

ime hopes just require a more careful set up

once youve got it right though they are awesome

I remember getting brake fade on my minis in the alps many years ago before I knew how to bleed em proper(they live on my commuter now- 11 years old!), but mono 4s and now evo m4 races (which were the most fiddly to set up right) have been faultless from megavalnches to gravity enduros

I can easily 1 finger endo my with my evos and Im no lightweight

not ridden the latest shimanos but the ones I have ridden seemed to work fine just a bit more wooden than the hopes

I find this review anything but objective.

Not sure what you want he ends up giving an opinion and a reason
What did you want they are both excellent get which you want or some marketing blurb 😉
Yes they give an opinion but they give reasons YMMV

I use Hope for two reasons

1. Modulation is what it is about for me as noted i could lock the wheels easily so what i want to be able to do is control it and I like the feel of hopes

2. I can get parts for it and will be able to in 2020

my experience is that they’re [hopes] not very reliable

BURN HIM 😉
Never had any problem beyond bleeding with mine and once had to sort out a stuckpiston – in fairness I had not used the bike for 6 months ish

My view – price or weight get Shimano
Feel and parts get Hope

Looks – who cares

Quick Question – while we’re talking about Shimano brakes. I love my XTs but they are grabby at low speed tech. Can I adjust them to still have that awesome feel in all other situations AND work not be grabby.

I can easily 1 finger endo my with my evos and Im no lightweight

?

I can 1-finger endo with a set of wet rim brakes on my road bike but that doesn’t mean I would swap my XT discs for Tiagra rim brakes… I love Hope for wheels/headsets, but it seems like even die-hard Hope fans can’t really come up with reasons why Hope brakes are worth considering.

Wanderer – what pads are you using? IME sintered pads have less ‘bite’ than organic ones at low speed. Might help?

I like the look of Hope, the machining is nice to look at and feel but ironically, it’s an inferior option- Hope can’t forge parts like that so they cnc them, but it makes for a heavier and (for a given weight) weaker part. (I’m pretty sure their machining is designed to be really obvious, they certainly have the kit and the skill to make more refined parts… but the hardware to make small forgings costs megabucks so better to make their weakness a strength, clever).

But objectively, for the price of a Deore brake all you can do with Hope is buy a couple of sets of pads then squeeze them onto the rotor by hand, so I reckon Shimano have them beat on that level.

In conclusion, Formula.

Junkyard “How very dare you” its ALL about the looks !

Pusseywillow, what Bollox ! Your just ANTI Hope ! “A big group of people you ride with are obviously HOPE – Less

A big group, I’d call that 20 ? A small group = 5 ? a group = 10 so a big group must number 20 ? And not one if them has a good thing to say about hope brakes ?

Do you work for SHIMANO ? Or your friends ? Or family ?

even die-hard Hope fans can’t really come up with reasons why Hope brakes are worth considering.

fair enough if you are talking about initial price

but i bought my last set of hopes s/h safe in the knowledge that I can get spares easily if they are knackered and will last me 10 years +

and they do look lovely

and if MTB wasnt all about looks and snobishness we’d all be riding canyons and on-ones and santa cruz, yeti etc would be out of business

Thnx Superficial.. I’ll give the sintered pads a try

I’ve just sold a pair of HOPE TECH M4’s on eBay, 4 years old, well used £304 for the pair !

I know that says more about eBay but it paid for my upgrade to tech 4 Evo’s ?
Or downgrade depending on how big your riding group is !

There’s a lot to be said to riding on your own !

I couldn’t see past Hope for a long time.

Great looking kit that works well and is backed up by really good customer service

Then I bought a set of Saint M810’s and I wondered why I had bothered running Hope brakes for so long.

Wife’s bike has XT’s and the spare / commuter has Deores. You just can’t beat Shimano for the money

I like Hope, but mainly BBs and hubs. Hubs on 7 of 8 bikes. Gave up on the brakes, but by crikey they’re pretty.

I like Shimano brakes and am now putting them on all of my bikes that get hard use. I’m kind of with Richmtb.

I dislike Avids for the incessant faff.

Which is best…

Which is better if you’re only talking about two.

Junkyard “How very dare you” its ALL about the looks !

Pusseywillow, what Bollox ! Your just ANTI Hope ! “A big group of people you ride with are obviously HOPE – Less

A big group, I’d call that 20 ? A small group = 5 ? a group = 10 so a big group must number 20 ? And not one if them has a good thing to say about hope brakes ?

Do you work for SHIMANO ? Or your friends ? Or family ?

Please post more on this forum. Your inane ramblings are brilliant. 😆

OP – see if you can get a go on a set of Formula T1s. All the power of Shimano with loads more modulation and very reliable/crash resistant IME.

Hope can’t forge parts like that so they cnc them, but it makes for a heavier and (for a given weight) weaker part.

The exact same could be said about their hubs – but how many hub manufacturers forge their hubs? Very very few. I’m not sure that is really very much of an issue.

How often do you see posts like some of the above?

‘I’ve been using ‘blah’ brakes for 5 years, and then I bought ‘blah’ brakes and they are so much better!’

Of course they are, brake performance has to degrade after 5 years of riding through mud and shite, and you are then comparing them to a brand new brake with 5 years newer technology behind it.

FWIW, Avids are pish though.

I think the conclusion to this thread has to be – buy whatever you like, all have pro’s and con’s, just don’t buy Avid, as they are shiiiiite!

I like the look of Hope, the machining is nice to look at and feel but ironically, it’s an inferior option- Hope can’t forge parts like that so they cnc them, but it makes for a heavier and (for a given weight) weaker part. (I’m pretty sure their machining is designed to be really obvious, they certainly have the kit and the skill to make more refined parts… but the hardware to make small forgings costs megabucks so better to make their weakness a strength, clever).

But objectively, for the price of a Deore brake all you can do with Hope is buy a couple of sets of pads then squeeze them onto the rotor by hand, so I reckon Shimano have them beat on that level.

In conclusion, Formula.

Half a dozen Formula brakes have been owned within the family and they all pissed themselves and died. I’ve got a pair of C2’s and two pairs of Mini’s that are still going strong.

Also, the tensile strength of Hope’s aluminium alloy blows the magnesium on your formula’s out the water. How much that matters considering the differences between cnc and forging I don’t know as I’m not an engineer.

Thirdly in regard to the shimanos, I have small hands and the hope adjusters do actually work properly. Whilst the shimano’s don’t and also happen to lack the feel that I get through the hopes.

All of the companies have their downsides

Hope – Cons: Price (arguably reliability, but I’ve never had a problem)

Pros: Feel, Adjustability, Excellent power vs weight vs price on the Race X2 models. (Eg a cheaper alternative to XTR)

Shimano – Cons: Adjustability, Feel
– Pros: Price, Reliability

Formula – Cons: Reliability, Price, Spare Parts Support
– Pros: Weight, Feel, Outright power on the newer models

I went with Hope as the pro’s/con’s suit my requirements.

Did someone say Formula?

😆

Carry on, as you were.