Black spokes………still a no, no?

Several, if not many, moons ago there was a school of thought that said “Thou shalt not purchase/maketh a wheel with black spokes for the Lord hath said they are weak and may snappeth”. Since I’m in the market for a new set of decent, lightish (~1700g) wheels, I was wondering if it’s still the case. 😕

A particular brand/batch of them were bad – tended to be on wheels that came with bikes. In general they’re fine.

No, that was years ago. They used to use some process to make them which resulted in them being slightly more brittle than silver (can’t remember what offhand), but black spokes now are fine – no stronger or weaker than equivalent silver ones.

Double butted spokes are stronger than plain guage though (regardless of colour!)

CL I think you mean DB have a higher fatigue life?

Double butted spokes are stronger lighter than plain guage though (regardless of colour!)

FTFY

Got black spokes on my wheels that have had the best part of four years putting up with my lardy ass. Trued the rear one once and that’s it.

I’ve got wheels with black spokes that are still perfectly fine that I started using in the last century.
You’ll be OK.

You’ll be fine, my ‘black spoked’ wheels are running true after at least 4 years of abuse and counting….

Double butted spokes are stronger more elastic, and therefore build a tougher wheel than plain guage though (regardless of colour!)

Double butted are stretchier so stretch and contract with the rim when it flexes over bumps. This in turn keeps the nipples under tension and means they are less likely to change tension over time, preventing uneven tensions which would eventually result in broken spokes.

[/friday morning pedantry] 8)

Many happy years running black spokes, no problems with them.

Spokist 😉

I haven’t had any problems with spokes of any colour, black, white or silver.

It was pretty much an urban myth that coloured spokes were weaker, a couple of shops helped spread it by refusing to building wheels with coloured spokes and giving no proof other than their ‘experiences’ with them

Double butted spokes are more elastic, and therefore build a tougher flexier wheel than plain guage though (regardless of colour!)

FIFY
🙂

What about nipples? I know exciting coloured nipples are a no-no, but can you get black ones that won’t shear if you upset them a bit?

Double butted are stretchier so stretch and contract with the rim when it flexes over bumps. This in turn keeps the nipples under tension and means they are less likely to change tension over time, preventing uneven tensions which would eventually result in broken spokes.

Mince! Never ceases to amaze me how folk believe stuff more the more complicated it is.

DB spokes flex a bit more and this is in the middle of the spoke rather than at the bend, this (apparently) lessens breakages.

Might seem complicated to you Al, but to my mighty engineering brain it seems perfectly logical. 😀

Bought a Gary Fisher HKEK in 2005, enough black spokes broke within the first few months that I was given new wheels (with black spokes) under warranty, those are still running the same spokes as when I was given them and get regular use.

I bought some Hope Hoops about 18months ago with black DB spokes and they’ve never needed truing or any spokes replaced (despite coming with a few spares).

Make of that what you will 😕

I know exciting coloured nipples are a no-no, but can you get black ones that won’t shear if you upset them a bit?

You can get black brass nipples yes. I’ve got a bag, which I don’t really want if you’re interested?

Al was right earlier, butted spokes simply have a higher fatigue life in the same way a butted frame should have better fatigue resistance – by directing the stress away from the j-bend / nipple areas. Since a spoke goes through a tension cycle every time the wheel goes round, fatiigue life’s pretty important )

If you get good quality spokes the colour won’t make any difference.

Snowflake lacing with pink alloy nipples is in for the current season dont you know!

pretty sure that the Jobst Brandt book thinks DB spoked wheels are stronger…

not TB though

13FM, you want to BATTLE ❓ 😡

I didn’t do engineering at uni cos it was too easy, I did the 2 hardest degrees I could find.

How do nipples change tension?

SPOKE GEEK BATTLE!!!!! 😈

Poor terminology on my part, I was taught that when the rim flexes under load, the tension on the spoke could (briefly) be decreased enough that the nipple could then loosen, causing a loss of tension in the spoke (not the nipple like I said). Obviously this would be over time, not all at once.

This is why you would use a locking agent (loctite/linseed oil/prolock nipples etc.) which prevents the nipple loosening over time. Alternatively build the wheel nice and tight, preferrably with slightly elastic spokes to preload the nipples, and this process wouldn’t occur.

If this theory is ‘mince’ then why do spoke nipples loosen over time?

on a perfectly built wheel no loosening occurs.

Otherwise it’s bedding in & impacts microscopically lengthening the spokes 😛

How hard are you pedalling/hitting rocks to stretch work hardened steel spokes?? 😯

As hard as you are if you are flexing the rim enough to overcome their tension and stretch 😛

I’ve only ever had wheels with black spokes on my MTB’s and not broken/bent one yet (cue a shower of snapped spokes next time out).

I just bunged new wheels on my road bike and they have dark grey bladed spokes, wonder where that sits 😆

Dark grey? Like Mavic R-Sys:

As hard as you are if you are flexing the rim enough to overcome their tension and stretch

****, we’re beefcake, we should form our own team 😀

Thanks for the engineering lesson, folks! 🙂

Now recommend me some new wheels, circa 300 notes/1700g, that’ll be OK for tyres up to 2.35″………with or without black spokes/alloy nipples. 😉

You cant beat the way stainless spokes look after a good wash, so for me stainless every time.

Toxicsocks: Hope Hoops on Crests, 1585g.