Beginners guide to nuclear power stations ?

I drive a 12 year old car.

Which was new once. So how is it less polluting than most cars on the road now? The majority of those cars will still be here in 12 years I suspect.

How long is a piece of string T1000? The nuclear industry conveniently forgets the cost of decommisioning and long term storage, and the cost depends on how safe a reactor you buy; PV requires calculating for each location, as do wind, hydro, tidal and wave; fossil fuel generation costs depend on the cost of fossil fuels which are far from constant. There is no one answer but a range of costs depending on location.

A 3kW PV installation cost me 20 000e but would be a bit cheaper now as costs are coming down. I get 3200kWh a year decreasing to no less than 2700kWh over a 25 year period and hopefully longer. About 0.3 euro/kWh assuming some maintenance costs. You might find that expensive, I don’t.

PV requires calculating for each location

I’ll do a quick calc for anybody in the UK in case they’re interested – you won’t get anywhere near the sort of figures Edu is quoting. Of course for all those on this forum living in the South of France his data is very relevant.

aracer – Anyone mount these things on a wall instead of a pitched roof?

I get 3200kWh a year decreasing to no less than 2700kWh over a 25 year period and hopefully longer

Edukator – fine, but what if you are not planning on staying somewhere 25 years?

If anyone based in the UK wants to invest in renewable energy there are plenty of projects to invest in that are located where they will be efficient. The first thing to do is to change your energy supplier to one that uses renewables; more demand for their product will encourage thme to increase their capacity.

Investing in insulation clearly results in greater savings in the Uk but that hasn’t stopped me investing in the south of France. Besides, it keeps the place cool in summer so we don’t feel the need for air-con.

I don’t follow your logic Molgrips. A PV roof adds value to a property so you get your money back if you sell. On your logic nobody would fit double glazing if they didn’t intend to stay in a house at least 20 years.

Anyone mount these things on a wall instead of a pitched roof?

It might help with pointing them more directly at the sun in the winter, but even here we get 30 degree incidence angles in summer, so you’d lose a lot of efficiency then. Unless of course you were optimising for winter use. The thing is, it’s not the incidence on your panel which is the issue so much as that greater incidence angles mean the sun’s rays are travelling through more atmosphere, hence attenuating them.

If anyone based in the UK wants to invest in renewable energy there are plenty of projects to invest in that are located where they will be efficient. The first thing to do is to change your energy supplier to one that uses renewables

Except they seem to mostly invest in stupid stuff like windmills. I’d happily switch to something investing in tidal and not spending a penny on wind.

Edukator – fine, but what if you are not planning on staying somewhere 25 years?

It’s included in the sale?
(unless you demolish every house you move out of)

Somebody selling PV panels said:

A PV roof adds value to a property so you get your money back if you sell.

Zokes – the historical record on nukes is plain to see – unreliable, dangerous and polluting. Sizewell b – our best performing reactor has down time and is running well below capacity now.

Please tell me how to deal with the waste?

You call me for pig headed and blind – but why will you not accept the argument is not between nukes and coal ad you keep claiming- because properly developed efficiency and renewable and other sustainable tech will easily close the gap.

Your position is a defeatist one.

Dibbs – Member
And as for Hydrogen, I work with it on a daily basis and I’m sure most people don’t realise just how explosive/dangerous it is. Remember that a lot of the damage in Fukushima was caused by a Hydrogen explosion.

I realise this – its also difficult to store.

zokes – Member

I wonder how many other users/potential users of this (otherwise excellent forum) he dissuades from posting.

Sadly, plenty. Last time the effect his posting style has on other users was discussed, he ‘flounced’ for a while, but now sadly seems to be back to his old self
Ok – I’ll stay away from these threads again . I had intended to do so but got sucked into this one to correct the rubbish you keep spouting

Tehre simply is no need for nukes when with the same amount as the nukes would cost spent on energy efficinecy and renewables the small amount of energy we get from nukes could easily be covered by these two things

It might help with pointing them more directly at the sun in the winter, but even here we get 30 degree incidence angles in summer, so you’d lose a lot of efficiency then.

Would make more sense to optimise for winter would it not, when the incidence is weaker and usage is greater…? Or is it just a case of writing off the winter?

Just thought of it because our house has no South facing roof, but a huge blank 3 storey south facing wall..

I suppose you take the roof tiles with you when you move house, Higgo. You are typical of the anti-rewable mob, inventing problems that don’t exist. Why would selling a house with PV panels on be a problem? The new owner can use or sell the production as he/she wishes.

There are real headaches with nuclear that are currently making themselves felt and the best you can come up with a bout PV is that it would complicate selling a house.

Most people go for the highest yearly output, Molgrips, which means 30-40°. With vertical panels you’ll get less total return but will produce more in the morning and evening, and in the Winter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12960655

TJ is Antony Froggatt and I claim my £5

Actually Antony is nowhere near negative enough about nuclear to be TJ.

By Antony Froggatt Senior Research Fellow, Chatham House

Given that only a few decades, rather than millennia separate the accidents at Fukushima, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island (which were also thought to be at minimal risk of core damage) it is clear that nuclear operators and/or regulators are significantly underestimating the inherent risks associated with nuclear technology.

For nuclear power to play a significant role in meeting future energy demand a significant scaling up of its use will therefore be required, amplifying many-fold the existing problems of nuclear safety, siting and waste management, as well as causing new worries about the proliferation of nuclear materials.

Numerous studies have shown that renewables along with energy efficiency can deliver all or virtually all of our global energy needs, and that therefore nuclear power does not have to be part of the future.

that is pretty much exactly my position in that piece –

and the best you can come up with a bout PV is that it would complicate selling a house

That’s not the best we can come up with against PV. The best is that it doesn’t work at night, the second best is that it doesn’t work very well in the winter at northern latitudes, the third is that it’s really expensive.

Significant issues to be overcome there. I desperately hope they are overcome mind, and soon.

Numerous studies have shown that renewables along with energy efficiency can deliver all or virtually all of our global energy needs

Also strikes me that numerous studies have shown the opposite too.

I suppose you take the roof tiles with you when you move house, Higgo. You are typical of the anti-rewable mob, inventing problems that don’t exist.

I think you may have misread me or I was unclear (possibly because someone replied while I was typing). Of course I wouldn’t take my roof tiles with me. And if the house had a PV roof I’d consider it an asset when selling the house.

Also, I’m not part of any ‘anti-renewable mob’. I’m all for renewables – my favourite is tidal (but I have to admit that’s largely because I like the sea and all things to do with it!)

that is pretty much exactly my position in that piece

Has he mentioned how those energy savings are going to be achieved, or what happens when there’s no wind in December (or indeed no wind in the UK between October and March)? I’m also not desperately keen on “virtually all” if the plan is to have nothing to fill that little gap.

“Virtually all” is wrong IMO

The gap currently filled by nuclear and more? Feasible

Sizewell b – our best performing reactor has down time and is running well below capacity now.

I’ve just checked and Sizewell B was running at 100.5% of reference unit power at 08:00hrs, my maths may be bad but I don’t think that can be described as any way near well below capacity.

Oh and I’d just like to clarify something. If someone expresses doubts about the current capability of renewables to provide the country’s energy needs, it doesn’t mean they are ‘anti renewable’.

I am very much pro renewable, but I don’t think we could just switch now and all would be fine… I do think that nuclear could help slash our carbon emissions to where they need to be, and would cause much less damage in the long term even with an accident a decade or so.

With vertical panels you’ll get less total return but will produce more in the morning and evening

Surprisingly enough, not – at least not for more than a few days either side of the 4 months or so when you get better incidence angles at mid-day with a vertical rather than 30 degree panel. The issue being that the sun veers Northwards in the morning and evening, thus making the incidence worse on a vertical panel. Check the numbers in
vertical panel, 30 degree panel – smaller numbers are better, numbers more than 90 are below the horizon.

What about slightly angled panels on a vert wall?

Roof panels would be useless on our house.

Dibbs – Member

Sizewell b – our best performing reactor has down time and is running well below capacity now.

I’ve just checked and Sizewell B was running at 100.5% of reference unit power at 08:00hrs, my maths may be bad but I don’t think that can be described as any way near well below capacity.

Was sizewell b not offline for a large part of last year? And a chunk of 2008 – both unplanned?

Was its out put not reduced permanently a couple of years ago to 70~%or so of its rateing because of boiler cracking or am I confusing it with a different one?

Hinkley was downrated not sizewell. My mistake.

~Still stand tho that it has been unreliable

Decommissioning: “its costing hugely more and taking longer than anticipated”

Yes that may be the case, and I don’t dispute it. I only disputed TJ’s error that it had never been done. And his error about Sizewell; and his anti-commercial bias; and… 😀

Edukaor{A 3kW PV installation cost me 20 000e but would be a bit cheaper now as costs are coming down. I get 3200kWh a year decreasing to no less than 2700kWh over a 25 year period and hopefully longer. About 0.3 euro/kWh assuming some maintenance costs. You might find that expensive, I don’t}

so TJ commented only 70% availability so looking at the above quoted PV figures they are only 11% efficient… still not selling it…

so you need 6 1/2 times as much pv etc or something else when the sun doesn’t shine + a means of storing it…. sound mighty expensive to me..

Can’t help but think that quite a lot of people on this thread should read this….

http://www.withouthotair.com/

A few numbers and facts about the viability fo supplying energy in the future as opposed to politically motivated positioning…

Still stand tho that it has been unreliable

Not compared to any conventional power station measured over the whole of its life it hasn’t. Prior to the recent problems it was well ahead. Let’s not even mention unreliability of wind, eh?

What about slightly angled panels on a vert wall?

Why don’t you try putting some numbers in yourself and see?
http://www.nrel.gov/midc/solpos/spa.html

(bung in your location, 0 for “Surface azimuth rotation” and your panel angle in “Surface slope”, where 0 is horizontal 90 vertical, select “Surface incidence angle” as output – alternatively edit my links, replacing “slope=30” with your panel angle, and “latitude=52” with your latitude).

Though bear in mind that even if you have a moving panel tracking the sun, you’re still trying to make use of a pretty scarce resource up here for a significant chunk of the year (ie 4 months worse than Edu’s worst day).

Looks to be a couple of hours in it as far as I can tell from the BBC tide tables, between Scotland and the South West

You’re looking too far afield. Nearly 3 hours difference between Lossiemouth[/url] and Dunbar[/url] which is just right so that one has peak tidal flows as the other has slack water (not that I’d imagine either of those has decent enough tidal flows, but that’s not the point)

not that I’d imagine either of those has decent enough tidal flows, but that’s not the point

Not that time no, but it is a good one.

If we took say the top 10 best sites in the UK, would we have enough coverage? And what might the generating capacity ultimately be?

Was its out put not reduced permanently a couple of years ago to 70~%or so of its rateing because of boiler cracking or am I confusing it with a different one?

Hinkley and Hunterston are operating at 70% of original design power but they’ve both been running for 35 years and would you run a 35 year old car flat out 24/7?

So infact nuclear is unreliable then. size B is the best of our reactors. Shut down for months last year, shut down for a short time in feb, shutdown for months in 2008. The rest of our reactors admittedly old are either shut down or running below capacity because of problems and failures. Thats a good basis to base our energy security on.

Still no solution to the waste issue of course.

Molgrips – tidal – the energy is huge – virtually limitless. The issue is extracting it. The trial plant in the sound of islay is 10 mw. The pentland firth has a potential of 10 Gw Total potential for tidal generation in Scotland is 35 Gw or if my sums are right more than half of the UK needs. Thats just Scotland – include the english sites and you get more

Shut down for months last year, shut down for a short time in feb, shutdown for months in 2008

Do you have similar stats for coal or gas fired power stations?