Avid Elixir 5 bleeding problem

Probably a really simple thing that I’m doing wrong (I didn’t choose this username lightly).

I’ve got a pair of avid elivir 5 brakes that I bought from the classifieds, the front is fine but the rear had no power whatsoever.

I’ve bought a bleed kit and got the instructions etc. I just don’t seem to be able to do it though. I can’t get any of the oil to go into the system.

The problem seems to be the lever end (I took the caliper off the hose, could push oil through it, the hose the same, but I can’t get any through the lever).

What am I doing wrong? If nothing (I don’t believe that), then what’s wrong with the brakes?

I’m off to work now to calm down a little, I look forward to some answers later on.

Thanks.

sounds like your not pulling the lever in to the handle bar when trying to push the fluid through.

have a look at the video should help

Are your elixirs the newer design (2012) with a lever reach adjuster on the inside of the lever (as opposed to older ones dial on the lever body)? Did you wide the reach all the way out and keep going?

If so, i found this problem out yesterday. You are supposed to unwind the lever adjust but on the newer design, just unwind it until the lever stops moving away from the bar, then turn it back one click and give that a go!

Oh ok so looks like elixir 5 are not tool free reach adjustable… Same thing may apply though! Wind the adjuster in until the lever starts moving towards the bar. Then undo it until it just stops moving away from the bar then turn it back a fraction!

If this is the ones I sold then I had no problems bleeding them, but I obviously managed to get some air in the rear system. Follow the SRAM procedure to the letter and tap the calliper and lever while your at it and you should be good. Sorry again.

sounds like your not pulling the lever in to the handle bar when trying to push the fluid through.

Thanks for linking that video, you don’t pull the lever back initially, and it seems in that video like it should be easy to push the oil through the system. It’s not.

I’ve tried the adjuster wound one way, and the other. No dice. I can’t get the oil to go into the system.

The video linked (and others I’ve watched) make it look so easy, as it should be. Just push on the caliper syringe gently, whilst pulling on the lever syringe, and the oil moves through the system.

This feels like I’m trying to push into a closed system, no amount of pushing or pulling makes any difference (well, I end up with DOT 5.1 all over the floor). It honestly feels like something isn’t unscrewed, but I can’t for the life of me work out what.

I’m not a total numpty (famous last words), I’ve bled Maguras, Hayes, Shimano, all with no problems. This is **** ridiculous.

Messiah, I bow down to your abilities that you were able to get some oil into this brake, I’m sat here on the kitchen floor at my wits end with this. There’s DOT 5.1 on my clothes, on the floor, in the syringe, everywhere but in the bloody brake.

Come on guys, please tell me that I’ve just overlooked a bolt or a screw or something, I can’t understand why this is not working.

So, taking the hose out of the lever and being able to force out out the end suggests the caliper end is fine.
Can you force the oil out of the lever by pushing on the lever syringe in the same way?
If nothing works, I’d take the lever apart (very easy.-look on the sram website) and then put it back together again). That often works!

DrP

Oh-don’t pull on the lever syringe either, just push the caliper end….

DrP

Had two like this recently, the brand new one went back to the importer, and came back with new internals fitted, the other was purchased elsewhere and was returned to them for rectification.I’d suspect the master cylinder piston to be sticking in it’s bore and blocking fluid passage, it’s a simple system where the piston is a sloppy fit at the beginning of it’s stroke, allowing fluid to return around it to the reservoir. Can’t see there being much else to block them other than something jammed in the hose entry point or bleed port.

Are you sure both hose clips are open on the syringes are open when you do this? My rear 5 was fiddly, but the first step (push on one end to move fluid through the hose into the other syringe) was easy – didn’t require much force at all

I bled some for a client last week, it was a faff.

Best tip is to remember to hold both syringes up, i did this and they bled instantly, but push from the caliper end

Have a look on pink bike and search for tech tuesday there is the you tube guide and photos + description. My first thought was the lever isn’t compressed, well worth leaving for an hour have a coffee and clear your head i’m terrible for getting frustrated and sometimes a break makes life easier!

The pinkbike guide helped me more than all the other info > http://www.pinkbike.com/news/tech-tuesday-bleeding-avid-brakes-2010.html

Also make sure both tube clamps are open and the brake lever isn’t pulled back to the bar.

OK, I’ve had another “try” in the light of day, here’s a few photos to help diagnose my problem.

[/url]
caliper and hose[/url] by hopsinjoor[/url], on Flickr

As you can see (or maybe not, I’m not that accomplished as a photographer) the DOT 5.1 is going through the caliper and up the hose and coming out the end, this is to be expected.

[/url]
caliper and hose 2[/url] by hopsinjoor[/url], on Flickr

Another photo to show that this end is working fine.

[/url]
the lever[/url] by hopsinjoor[/url], on Flickr

The syringe connected to the bleed port on the lever body, fluid should by rights be pissing out of the hose connector, it’s not. Nothing is. There does seem to be fluid going somewhere though.

[/url]
Lever 2[/url] by hopsinjoor[/url], on Flickr

Seems to be coming from the bleed port (so it’s just leaking from the syringe end) and also, strangely, from the lever area.

[/url]
lever 3[/url] by hopsinjoor[/url], on Flickr

A close-up (and a bad one at that) of where the fluid seems to be coming from, unless it’s just going around the body from the bleed port, as it can’t get into the lever body.

[/url]
lever 4[/url] by hopsinjoor[/url], on Flickr

Bad focus, but another photo of the same area.

Any ideas, it’s definitely the lever body that’s the problem (well, it could be me that’s the problem, but at this stage I’m unsure). From all the videos I’ve watched you don’t pull the lever back until you’ve got fluid in the system as pulling the lever back isolates the lever from the system. I can’t even get that far.

SO you’re saying that, with everything separate as in the pictures, when you force fluid INTO the lever through the bleed port, it DOESN’T come out the ‘hose end’??
Did the brakes work at all when you had them??

It doesn’t sound like you’re bleeding it incorrectly, it sounds faulty..

With the lever ‘open’ as in the picture, it should be a ‘free flowing’ system, and fluid should come out the hose end.

I would:
a)dismantle the lever (it’s one or two screws) and free it all up,
or
b)push a 2mm allen key into the hose end of the lever – if it’s a sticky master piston, that will push it back into the lever.

Let us know (but honestly, just take the damn lever apart!!! here‘s the instructions)

DrP

SO you’re saying that, with everything separate as in the pictures, when you force fluid INTO the lever through the bleed port, it DOESN’T come out the ‘hose end’??

That’s exactly what I’m saying, yes. I can’t get anything through the bleed port and out of the hose connector.

Did the brakes work at all when you had them??

I got them last week (or could have been the week before, but they went on the bike last week) and put them on the bike. The front is fine, the rear would stop the wheel when the bike was upside down and pushed around by hand. When on the road it did nothing. The lever could be pulled all the way back to the bar with no stopping power at all. When I did the cardinal sin of taking the wheel off and applying the lever the pistons moved about less than a mm each, and then returned when the lever was returned.

It felt like there was some fluid in the brake, and what felt like air. Enough that it would move the pistons in the caliper, but not enough that it would do anything of use. Thus the bleeding.

It doesn’t sound like you’re bleeding it incorrectly, it sounds faulty..

With the lever ‘open’ as in the picture, it should be a ‘free flowing’ system, and fluid should come out the hose endThat’s what I felt, but as I’ve never had a set of Avids, there is always the case that I could be doing something wrong.

I’m quite wary of taking the lever to bits, I only got the brakes recently, and if something is broken and I have to send them back, the more fiddling I do, the less likely the seller is to want to refund me.

Though, I’m quite unsure as to what I can do without doing that. I’m at the cross-roads of either taking the lever to bits, or contacting the seller for a refund.

Dismantling the lever properly will show what’s wrong, and won’t break it. ’tis the only way!

A new rebuild kit is 25quid (as I found out two days ago, hence my knowledge!).

I’ve a few bits left from my kit that didn’t need replacing-if you post up pics of the internals, anything that looks busted, and I’ve got spare, you can have!

DrP

@DrP, I really appreciate your help with this, thank you for your time.

OK, I followed the instructions and took the lever to bits (was quite easy to be honest), when I took out the piston/bladder/snaprod part there was a bit of seal/rubber left in the lever. I took it out and photographed what I could.

First off is a photo of everything that was contained in the lever, most of it looks good.
[/url]
lever disassembled[/url] by hopsinjoor[/url], on Flickr

I get the feeling that this is the problem, there was a bit of rubber that was still in the lever body when the assembly came out with the spring.[/url]
piston/bladder[/url] by hopsinjoor[/url], on Flickr

What do you reckon?

Exactly the same thing that happened to me!!! (well, yours is less severe as your diaphragm (the ‘baggy’ rubber bit is intact).

I reckon your piston seal is busted (the black rubber o-ring just above the spring) or eroded.

I had to replace the whole kit as m diaphragm was broked, but in your case I’d remove the rubber o ring, pop down to your local car garage, and see if they’ve a similar sized one they could let you have. I bet the loose bit of rubber was blocking the bleed port…

DrP

I turned the spring/bladder arrangement round and it shows where that bit is from.
[/url]
spring bladder – other side[/url] by hopsinjoor[/url], on Flickr

Is it coming from the o-ring, or the bladder then?? I can’t quite see..

DrP

From the O-ring it seems, it was in the body further past than the bleeding port, towards the end where the hose connector is.

I wonder is the o-ring is available to buy separate from the whole lever service kit.

/start moaning

I’m kinda frustrated by this whole thing, they were bought as a freshly bled working pair of brakes (to be fair to the seller, he bled them prior to selling so there would be the assumption that they worked fine) which they’ve turned out not to be.

I’ve bought a bleed kit in good faith as that would seem to be the obvious action, and due to an eroded o-ring (which may, or may not be the only problem that was stopping the bleeding from taking place) I’ve pretty much wasted an entire bottle of DOT 5.1.

I’ve now got to find a compatible o-ring, or failing that an entire lever service kit, and another bottle of DOT 5.1.

There’s no guarantee that the problems will be over then.

This could cost up to £30 (if I have to get the full lever service kit) on top of the cost of the bleed kit, on top of the money paid for the brakes initially. For not much more money I could have bought a new pair.

The folly of trying to get a bargain in the classifieds.

/end moaning

Just get a penny o-ring…
I could have got away with that, but needed the bladder too….

DrP

It looks to me like part of the bladder is damaged, it looks like the small piece of rubber left in the body matches up with the part of the bladder I’ve circled below.

Also I found this photo which may help you understand what’s going on inside, I’ve got the same brakes which is why I’m interested.

You would need the bleed kit eventually anyway and DOT fluid is pretty cheap if you buy it from Halfords but maybe you could ask the seller to reimburse you the cost of the master cylinder refurb kit as a gesture of good will?

I had a similar experience last year.

Brought the bike into the shop for a brake bleed and got i back with a soft rear brake. During another attempt to bleed it, it started acting up and ultimately it was no longer possible to push fluid into the system from either end. After removing the hose from the caliper and pushing fluid through, little (very small) pieces of black plastic came out with the fluid. The back pieces looked like an o-ring that has disintegrated and it still wasn’t possible to push fluid into the caliper.
I’m convinced your brake is pulling the same stunt as mine was.

My theory about your issue is that the previous owner didn’t experience any issues with the brake (i didn’t with mine) and did succeed in bleeding them before the sale (my local shop did as well). However the bleeding procedure may have loosened or shifted the rubber/plastic bit into a problematic position, preventing the brake from functioning properly.

I got my entire brake replaced under warranty (it was less than a year old at the time) and the new brake has worked perfectly ever since.
If i were you, i would buy the lever rebuild kit and fix the brake myself, assuming it is no longer under warranty. You may not have saved much money compared to buying a new brake, however this unfortunate experience have taught you how your brake system works and you will likely be able to fix it yourself, should the need occur at a later time. Look at the bright side 😉

Seller was me. I’ll sort this out.

I’ve spoken to the seller (thanks messiah) and he offered me either a full refund, or to pay for the refurb kit. I’ve ordered the refurb kit (and some more DOT 5.1 – I’ve paid for that though) and will sort out the lever when it arrives.

I will post back when the refurb kit turns up and this issue is finished and the brakes are bled and on the bike (I’m quite excited at the prospect).

Again, many thanks to messiah, he’s been a jolly nice, and helpful person throughout this.

Nealy – that ‘missing part’ is just the circlip – it’s normal.

Glad the OP is getting it sorted…

DrP

Hi, Did you get to the bottom of this. I am having similar problems with a virtually new brake (ridden for less than 30 hours). To cut a long story short, my new bike came with Elixir 3s. However, the hoses were too long and the bike went back to the OEM for them to be shortened. My guess is they bled the brake with the half worn pads in instead of a bleed block and when I went to put new pads in I couldn’t get the pistons back flush in the caliper. I let some fluid out and some air must have got in the system as after that the leaver wouldn’t spring back when released and there was no power.

I have just bought a bleed kit and followed the instructions to the letter. I cannot push fluid through the system from caliper to leaver (no matter how hard I push). There seems to be remnants of rubber in the fluid. From previous posts, may be this is something like a broken o-ring. It sounds like a warrantee return to me though …. more problems.

Special avid build quality strikes again
You might be able to send them directly to the avid service centre
They seem to be getting the customer service sorted slowly

Either that or just return to the shop that sold the bike but this often adds a few days

Short answer is that they are pish brakes and bleeding is a total faff. It should be possible to get a good bleed eventually, but expect a lot of frustration. Follow the instructions to the letter and watch out for any air getting in/out through the hose/syringe and hose/bleed-port connections.

Avid Elixir brakes are freaking utter total bollocks*

*to bleed.
In actual operation, the higher end ones are actually very nice to use and functional.

I spend a MAX of 40 minutes on each caliper, then give up and send them to SRAM/AVID service centre (who are total legends) as usually its the resivour thats buggered or if they are fitted on a new bike they just sort them anyway.

I had one guy who had ridden his bike for all of two rides within the first 4 weeks of ownership, his brake had around 3 hours of us trying to bleed it followed by 2 attempts by the service centre, and then it was still utter bollocks and (even reach adjusted ALL the way out) I could easily pull it to the bar with one finger.

Current gen shimano deore/slx/xt are amaze balls, ditch the avids and buy a brake that actually works reliably.