Apple? where and why did it all go wrong??

GrahamS – Member

….and now have the perspective to appreciate the joy and freedom of devices that just work.

I don’t understand this ‘just works’ phrase when comparing Apple stuff to other stuff, in a manner that implies if it’s not Apple it doesn’t ‘just work’.

I’m only on my second Android phone, as is my wife – but all four of those have ‘just worked’ – 1 HTC, 1 Sony & 2 Samsungs). my first Android phone I kept for 3 and a half years, my current one is 18 months old.

Both of our LG Android tablets ‘just work’.

My current Acer laptop with Win7 ‘just works’ and has done for almost the last 4 years.
My Wife’s Dell laptop is now with my parents and ‘just works’ and it must be at least 8 years old now.
My old desktop was about 6 years old EDIT – getting on for 9 years old when I sold it on eBay. It still ‘just worked’ but we didn’t need it anymore and sold it to a bloke who wanted it for his photography business.

I am not particularly computer savvy – I know my way around the basics and can Goggle a problem, if it crops up. But I just want to use stuff, not tinker with it. I haven’t had to with any of this stuff.

Do we have a winner yet?

Do we have a winner yet?

Apple shareholders seem to be holding an edge on the Microsoft lot, although BillG is still in the ring and smiling.

I have always had ipods but at the same time had reservations on a lot of the apple stuff as I thought the hardware was overpriced for the spec offered. I always built my own PC’s so thought the componentry used (although v nicely packaged) was way below spec considering the asking price.

Saying that I am largely consigned to use a Windows PC anyway as I need one for software development. I have as yet never had an iPhone but this may change as am being given one for work. I think this may be a shock to the system as I have had Android phones since they first released the operating system.

I agree with the comment that Windows has upped it’s game with regards to it’s PC Operating systems and that might have tightened the gap rather than Apple losing it’s way.

For anyone who likes to fiddle with computers
Why would you want to do that?

adding some more storage and being able to drag/drop files via usb isn’t the nerdiest thing in the world, but it’s still verboten in iOS land.

Is there any valid reason for not have sd card slots on apple mobile devices or is it purely to make you buy a more expensive model?

I don’t understand this ‘just works’ phrase when comparing Apple stuff to other stuff, in a manner that implies if it’s not Apple it doesn’t ‘just work’.

Apple’s vision is/was (supposedly) to make complicated/clever devices into “white goods” simple enough to be accessible to non-geeks. Historically speaking they have done pretty well at that and that’s where the “Just Works” thing comes from (as well as the “walled garden” approach).

I completely agree with you that Android/Google are making excellent headway into “Just Works” too. You can see this with the growth in Android and the popularity of simplified “Just Works” devices/systems like Chromecast.

Not too many years ago Android discussion threads were dominated by people discussing custom rom images, task managers, multi-threading etc. You don’t see that nearly as much now, except in geeky forums, and that’s probably a good thing.

But as for Windows: it has got better but did your Windows boxes really “Just Work”?
Or are you ignoring stuff like installing anti-virus/malware software, weekly Windows updates, constantly needing to manually update your other software, and assorted fiddling with things to get them right?

But as for Windows: it has got better but did your Windows boxes really “Just Work”?

Yep. Windows updates aren’t something you have to do to maintain – they happen automatically too.

As for manually updating other software – a) that doesn’t happen to me and b) how’s that MS’s fault?

No fiddling required for W7 and W8 afaik.

I don’t understand this ‘just works’ phrase when comparing Apple stuff to other stuff, in a manner that implies if it’s not Apple it doesn’t ‘just work’.

Never underestimate what Apple achieved.

Graphic Designers have always been able to use Apples, without difficulty. And this has then revolutionised the industry

Previously, anything more complicated than felt tips completely baffled us. If someone had approached the design profession and started talking about operating systems, never mind some of the frankly baffling twoddle that is the common parlance of IT spods, we’d have just done this….

then gone to the pub

Is there any valid reason for not have sd card slots on apple mobile devices or is it purely to make you buy a more expensive model?

I’m sure that making you buy a more expensive model is a big part of it. The pricing tiers of different capacity Apples products are many magnitudes greater than the actual cost of that capacity.

But… it is also about keeping it simple.

If you have removable storage then you have to present that to the user somehow. They need to think about where they are storing files and apps. And as an OS vendor (or app writer) you need to cope with things like someone trying to access an image/document/app that is stored on a different SD card or even the user pulling out an SD card while you are busy accessing it.

Little complications that add up to a more complicated user experience.

It’s perhaps telling that a lot of Android models no longer have removable storage on them either.

The pricing tiers of different capacity Apples products are many magnitudes greater than the actual cost of that capacity.

I was going to say something along those lines but figured I’d get flamed 🙂

And as an OS vendor (or app writer) you need to cope with things like someone trying to access an image/document/app that is stored on a different SD card or even the user pulling out an SD card while you are busy accessing it.

Android seem to manage this with something along the lines of “plug the card back in you idiot!” Yes people not knowing where they are saving stuff is a big problem in IT generally, having an opt out of the apple locked down system would be nice for those of us who do know some basic IT would be nice tho.

Most Android phones default to saving on the phone don’t they? So the card only comes into it if you put one in and then start wanting to do things with it..?

Windows updates aren’t something you have to do to maintain – they happen automatically too.

Yep – and then they automatically reboot my machine to install them 👿

Just popping out to lunch for twenty minutes. I’ll leave the PC on…

Gee thanks Microsoft.

As for manually updating other software – a) that doesn’t happen to me and b) how’s that MS’s fault?

a) so you don’t get constant updates for third-party things like browsers, flash, Adobe Reader, Java, photoshop etc etc?

b) well, for example, the OS could provide a centralised way for all applications to get their updates from an approved source and then silently apply them, as iOS (and I assume Android) does.

I’d also add – but I can and do drag and drop (all kinds of) files into my iOS device. I just use iTunes to do so rather than a file manager. Just a different bit of software.

And in fact, for the ubuntu fans out there you can just plug in an iOS device and access it via the file manager, and drag and drop etc.

And it’s not necessarily better in Android. E.g. to use an example I’m familiar with, plug in an HTC One…no drag and drop there.

Mostly I just sync via the cloud though, and don’t drag and drop at all.

Last thing I want to do is have to fiddle with my home pc or phone or TV streamer.

Yep, used to love sodding around with computers when I was younger and would happily spend hours (or days!) trying to solve a problem. Now I can’t be arsed; time is more precious and I’d rather be riding my bike anyway.

Plus by recommending Apple stuff to everyone I have cut my “tech support” role to virtually nothing except the odd problem that can usually be resolved in seconds. (I always recommend people stick to Mountain Lion or even Snow Leopard and iOS 7 for right now unless they really need some new feature though – agree that the latest software releases have been a huge **** up).

GrahamS – Member

Not too many years ago Android discussion threads were dominated by people discussing custom rom images, task managers, multi-threading etc. You don’t see that nearly as much now, except in geeky forums, and that’s probably a good thing.

But as for Windows: it has got better but did your Windows boxes really “Just Work”?
Or are you ignoring stuff like installing anti-virus/malware software, weekly Windows updates, constantly needing to manually update your other software, and assorted fiddling with things to get them right?

Your comment about previous Android geekiness….
This has always been stuff that you COULD do or talk about but DIDN’T HAVE TO DO. Apart from knowing that a custom ROM can be put on my Android phone, I don’t really know what advantage it would bring, how to do it or why I would want to do it. But my devices still work fine.

Task managers – erm, nope. Never used one of those; doesn’t Android do all that itself? Not an an issue for the 4 phones/2 tablets I have had use of.

Multi-threading – again. Nope. Dunno what that is and how it affects Android…..? Do I need to?

Sounds like ‘Max Power’ type stuff.
You don’t have to know about remaps/K&N filters/custom stainless exhausts/high lift cams etc. for your car to function – but if you want to be a car geek and get into all that, then go ahead.

With regards to the Windows stuff….
anti-virus; stick a disc in or download something and click install. Same for malware etc. Even my parents managed this on their own.

Windows updates – you don’t have to do anything. It just downloads stuff and installs it. You can schedule it for a convenient time, or get it to tell you when a download is available and then prompt it to download when you are ready, rather than having it download automatically.
I’ve always just left it to do what it wants.

manually update other software – the only thing I can think of that required manually updating was CrapCleaner. But I chose to install that and it’s freeware. So, them sending me an e-mail and saying ‘a new version is available’ and me pressing the download button is hardly difficult. And you don’t NEED that software, I just like to use it.

Fiddling with things to get them right….I had to fiddle with our router settings once, as they just disappeared for some reason. Took about 10mins to get working again.

My new 27″ all singing, all dancing iMac is great to use. Best one I’ve had so far and no software glitches in the 6 months or so I’ve been using it. Still using an iPhone 3GS that’s now over 5 years old and still works just fine. Keep thinking of upgrading it, but it does everything a phone needs to do. My wife has an iPhone 4 which is nowhere near as robust, but it still works after 3 years even though the glass back has shattered and it got dropped in the shower once.

So no loss of Apple love in our house.

a) so you don’t get constant updates for third-party things like browsers, flash, Adobe Reader, Java, photoshop etc etc?

Constant? No. And they’re automatic rather than manual. Ok so the Java one requesting admin privs to do a check is annoying.

A central update repository – like Windows update? It does do some third party software afaik. Some stuff that’s bundled with and integrated into the OS… like that other thing you know, the one with the fruit..

Apple Macbook at home, Windows laptop at work, and an Android Phone.

Jamie – Freeloader!
Do we have a winner yet?

They are all brilliant. They all “just work”, and they play nicely too. Humanity won, and then we looked around for something to argue about.

Its a mystery to me why Apple has the market capitalisation it has. If Apple and its products disappeared overnight most people would quickly find alternatives and get on with their jobs and lives. Nothing Apple makes is mission critical to running a modern economy. However if Microsoft or Oracle and their products disappeared overnight that would be a different matter.

100!

Jobs died, without him it’s just another nerd company doing things for nerds.

Apart from knowing that a custom ROM can be put on my Android phone, I don’t really know what advantage it would bring, how to do it or why I would want to do it. But my devices still work fine.

Good. That and your other points about Android show what progress it has made towards the “Just Works” mentality.

Go back five years and it was a very different story.

manually update other software – the only thing I can think of that required manually updating was CrapCleaner.

Really? Go start Adobe Reader and tell me what version you are on. Because if you have never updated it then you have some pretty massive and heavily exploited holes in your system.

Plus the fact that you even feel the need to use “CrapCleaner” on a system you say “Just Works” speaks volumes!

them sending me an e-mail and saying ‘a new version is available’ and me pressing the download button is hardly difficult.

So how did you know that email was legitimate and not directing you to malware? Did you check the site certificate? Look at the hash of the downloaded file?

That might seem daft but less tech-literate folk (like my parents or in-laws) regularly get caught out by phishing emails or browser pop-ups saying “Your software is out of date. Click here to update it.”

My wife has an iPhone 4 which is nowhere near as robust, but it still works after 3 years even though the glass back has shattered and it got dropped in the shower once.

It’s a sub-2 minute job to replace that if you want.
Literally undo two screws, replace back, tighten two screws.
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+4+Rear+Panel+Replacement/3140

Jobs died, without him it’s just another nerd company doing things for nerds.

Right, except that’s the exact opposite of what they are and what their target market is.

Graham, I feel that you should be congratulated on your dedication to your faith.

😉

I know I come across as an apologist and fanboy but I’m really not IRL. Honestly! 😀

If I was buying my first smartphone today it would be Android based.

Probably.

Assuming I didn’t already have an iPad.

Its a mystery to me why Apple has the market capitalisation it has.

Apple has a relatively small (8%?) share of the OS market and similarly small (12%?) in the mobile-OS market. If that’s what you meant by ‘capitalisation’?

No, they meant value of the company:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_capitalization

And your numbers, they’re by device numbers right? Not say, profit share, mobile web usage, ARPU etc?

Its a mystery to me why Apple has the market capitalisation it has.

Well do you remember what portable music players were like before the iPod? Do you remember what mobile phones were like before the iPhone? Do you remember what tablets were like before the iPad? That’s right, they were all shit. Nerds always like to argue that Apple invented none of those things, but they certainly made them desirable to the masses and there’s no doubt in my mind that other companies made blatant copies.

Apple are good at making things work in the real world, whether their own or someone else’s original idea. Apple make stuff work and then others copy them and sometimes even better them. Even if you are into Samsung, Sony, Microsoft, Android, etc, etc, Apple’s influence on the market is obvious throughout.

Device market share is a bit of a non-statistic, as essentially you are comparing a front line flagship phone alongside every budget phone made.

What would be an interesting statistic, is device market share amongst current flagship phones. Maybe cover phones up to 2 years old. I’d like to see that statistic.

zilog6128 – Member

Right, except that’s the exact opposite of what they are and what their target market is.

Then..Jobs died and without him it’s just another nerd company doing things for nerds.

I am target market and can tell you Google now does what Apple used to do but much better, the devices are now secondary Google drive, maps, docs, chrome, contacts, is all better than the Apple equivalent,

Much better to look at profit, Apple hoovers up more profit from phone sales than any other vendor, even though they sell less.

A new analysis of third-quarter handset industry operating profits estimates that Apple accounted for a massive 86 percent share, blowing away the competition as rivals such as Samsung saw their profit levels dip.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/11/04/apple-continues-to-dominate-with-massive-86-share-of-handset-industry-profits

It appears it’s not all roses on the Android update side of the fence…

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30116319

It appears it’s not all roses on the Android update side of the fence…

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30116319

They must be trying to mimic the Apple updates.

They must be trying to mimic the Apple updates.

Well they copy everything else.

GrahamS – You do know that you can postpone the reboot for 4 hours at a time right? You did click on the little drop down menu to stop it hassling you right?

As for Acrobat Reader, sorry whatnow? Foxit every time, much sleeker and easier to live with.

On repositories, Ubuntu (and debian in general) really does have the edge, for all its faults that I couldn’t live with that was its one great strength. Writing a code to run dual monitor with one at 90deg to normal from boot every time was the killer though. I’m out.

Back to 7, which just works. Only thing I really need to concern myself with is graphics updates which to be fair are only because I use it for gaming.

Finally, does anyone know how to save a PDF in Safari on the iPad? Because every single “expert” on the apple support forums still suggests saving it to a program that, as far as I can see, was removed several OS’s ago leaving no option. I mean, it’s not like I would want to save a PDF doc to my tablet to then go work offline is it?!? Seriously, that’s all I want and it’s doing my head in. Intuitive my hairy arse.

open in ibooks

Just tried to quote you, but couldn’t **** paste on my iPad/safari. Shite.

I know I come across as an apologist and fanboy but I’m really not IRL. Honestly

😀

Was just using you as aposter boyn example, Graham! At times, it’s almost as if there’s a religious zeal with which people talk about something as mundane as their choice of technology. In fact, for many, it seems to be discussed/defended/argued about as if it really were their religion.

I’ve always hated Apple, from the early iphones with basic features like MMS missing, and the unintuitive interface which required more gestures to do the same thing as an android.

Then they lost there cool status after taking Samsung to court for every patent under the sun and the proceeding years of lawsuits as they tried to establish their appleopoly 😆

open in ibooks
Just tried to quote you, but couldn’t **** paste on my iPad/safari. Shite.

Ta Daaaa!