It always perplexes me why you keep trying to put us down as having no power over our own destiny, this is not true.

I am not trying to put anyone down, simply explaining the reality (as I see it if people want a caveat). Of course we live in a democracy but SNP have 50 odd seats out of the 650. You can have majority at Holyrood and control the things that have been devolved. Independence isn’t one of them. You cannot become independent without a unilateral declaration other than with Westminster approval as Cameron granted you prior to the referendum. It’s my view that won’t happen again. It doesn’t matter whether you have 100% of the Holyrood and Scottish Westminster seats. The SNP needs to form a coalition to have power and it’s ruled out the Tories (who ironically gave it he referendum) and has attacked Labour.

Also remember that UKIP is in second place in may constituencies in the North, the Labour party would be well advised to look at the lessons in Scotland and how an apparently distant threat can suddenly overwhelm them.

Makes a good headline eh – UKIP came second in 120 seats, “many” in the North ?

However there were a lot more in the South, in fact most were :

Notice how much of those Southern areas where UKIP came second is actually true Tory blue :

Two thirds of the seats where UKIP came second were NOT Labour seats, they were overwhelmingly Tory seats.

So anyway, what lessons do you want Labour to learn from Scotland ?

That they need to have a “Blairite” leader and Tory-lite agenda to win an election – is that the lesson they need to learn from Scotland ?

jambalaya – Member
I am not trying to put anyone down, simply explaining the reality (as I see it if people want a caveat). Of course we live in a democracy but SNP have 50 odd seats out of the 650. You can have majority at Holyrood and control the things that have been devolved. Independence isn’t one of them. You cannot become independent without a unilateral declaration other than with Westminster approval as Cameron granted you prior to the referendum. It’s my view that won’t happen again. It doesn’t matter whether you have 100% of the Holyrood and Scottish Westminster seats. The SNP needs to form a coalition to have power and it’s ruled out the Tories (who ironically gave it he referendum) and has attacked Labour.

Remember the size the empire used to be? If a nation wants independence for any concerted length of time, it will become independent.

Scotland is defined as a nation, yes we are part of the UK, but we are also defined as a separate nation, which is a crucial distinction.

Interesting graphic earnie, any stats on which who won the seats? labour or tories, looks more outside the cities, so I’d guess tory?

That they need to have a “Blairite” leader and Tory-lite agenda to win an election – is that the lesson they need to learn from Scotland ?

The lesson from the election is that a left sided Labour party cannot win, even centre-left was rejected. The lesson for the SNP is that unless they build bridges with the Conservatives they cannot get into power or be able to influence a further referendum.

Empire, lots of countries 1000’s of miles from the UK versus a place just up the road ? It’s my view the independence debate will dissapear. No further referendum for 30 years and once the oil is going the economics of independence will be so far from workable it will be a dead issue.

labour or tories, looks more outside the cities, so I’d guess tory?

In the North Labour, in the South Tory. Roughly.

UKIP came second in 120 seats, 44 of those where Labour held

New Statesman

Hunt acknowledges the threat Ukip, which came second with 22.7 per cent in his seat, poses to Labour. “In too many parts of the north of England and the Midlands, the electoral challenge we faced was from Ukip – selling an anti-metropolitan message about political elites uninterested in those ‘left behind’,” he wrote on Monday. “These were historically Labour areas who just simply felt that Labour was no longer for them.” Ed Balls, who lost by 400 votes in Morley and Outwood, where Ukip picked up 8,000 votes, was one Labour casualty of Ukip’s surge.

Cheers.

bearGrease – Member
“None have asked to come back under the empire’s umbrella. Not even tiny Singapore.”

Which was built by a benign but authoritarian dictator. Are you suggesting that’s a good model for Scotland to follow? It feels like the koolaid drinkers believe so.

It’s not how it’s run that’s the point, it’s that it has managed its independence and doesn’t want to come back.

How about Ireland, Kenya, Tanzania, India, etc etc? You can list lots of things “wrong” with them. There are some basket cases amongst the independent nations, but none want back.

So I’ll repeat the question:

what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?

It doesn’t have to be a racial inferiority. A shared land border and common culture could make it much less attractive to be self-governing. All of your other examples (possibly excepting Ireland) exist far away from Englands borders and share more in common with their geographical neighbours.

scotroutes – Member
It doesn’t have to be a racial inferiority. A shared land border and common culture could make it much less attractive to be self-governing. All of your other examples (possibly excepting Ireland) exist far away from Englands borders and share more in common with their geographical neighbours.

Do the portuguese yearn to be under spanish rule? Does Slovakia wish to join the Czech Republic?

Cameron in Edinburgh meeting Nicola Sturgeon today.

Interesting graphic earnie, any stats on which who won the seats? labour or tories, looks more outside the cities, so I’d guess tory?

Of the 120 seats that UKIP came second 44 were Labour seats. I don’t know about the other 76 seats but bearing in mind that the LibDems hardly won any seats I think it’s fair to assume that they were almost all Tory.

EDIT : I’ve just realised that jambalaya had already answered the question. This is what happens when you don’t bother reading jambalaya’s posts 🙂

scotroutes – Member
It doesn’t have to be a racial inferiority….

Are you sure? I just wondered if our wise and kind overlords were saving us from ourselves and were being too polite to tell us the real reason. 🙂

what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?

Six Prime Minister represented Scottish Constituencies Whilst Prime Minister:
[list][*]William Gladstone[/*]
[*]Henry Campbell Bannerman[/*]
[*]Herbert Henry Asquith[/*]
[*]Andrew Bonar Law[/*]
[*]Sir Alec Douglas-Home[/*]
[*]And of course Gordon Brown[/*]
[/list]
Other PMs have been born in Scotland including Tony Blair.

Your question reveals more about the chip on your shoulder than your knowledge of history.

What was the moment they transformed from the Tartan Tories into a left wing party?

Good grief, they haven’t been Tartan Tories for more than a generation, back when Labour were a left wing party.

I think people trying to define what the SNP are, are onto plumbs at the moment. It’s not settled, they have supporters, members and MPs from all walks of life. What they will ultimately becomes is undecided due to the rapid rise in all of the above imo.

I think that’s what the attractiveness is to alot of people to be honest, the chance to define the party.

I’ve just realised that jambalaya had already answered the question. This is what happens when you don’t bother reading jambalaya’s posts

If we had some proper forum software we could just put each other on ignore, but I think we’d both find that boring 🙂 Yes I would agree the other 76 seats would mostly be Tory – 44/76 is almost 2:1 of course. Good news is UKIP cost Ed Balls his seat.

Sensible statement from Cameron after the meeting today. I am quite happy for Cameron to offer Scots some more powers as I am confident he will only do that if its beneficial for the rest of the UK and not least the English Votes for English laws. Implementing Smith first and then letting SNP see what they can do with it, plenty of opportunity to kick the can down the road with “lets wait and see, lets give it a reasonable amount of time to look at the impact …” Then it will be approaching GE2020 and that will be the rationale to put it on hold till after.

What we agreed was, first of all let’s implement Smith, let’s make sure it really is Smith. We are going to look again at welfare and make sure the clauses reflect what that agreement was.
But we haven’t yet implemented Calman, let alone implemented Smith. We haven’t yet got the tax powers that come in in April 2016, so I think let’s implement that so people can see the massive power on taxation and spending that the Scottish Parliament will have.
If the First Minister wants to send some proposals for me to look at I am very happy to examine proposals. There is going to be a debate, of course there will be a debate. I don’t rule out making other changes if sensible suggestions are made.”

EDIT: Cameron. Full fiscal autonomy means the end of Barnet formula and the wealth transfer to Scotland – makes sense to me.

I think the option of full fiscal autonomy is not a good option for Scotland inside the United Kingdom. I think it would land Scottish taxpayers with £7 billion of extra taxes and Scottish taxpayers with £7 billion of extra costs. I believe in the solidarity that is at the heart of our United Kingdom, so it is an honest disagreement between the First Minister and me about this. We will deliver a stronger Scottish Parliament, be in no doubt about.

What was the moment they transformed from the Tartan Tories into a left wing party?

Probably the moment the Labour Party lurched to the right and started to ape the Tories. The SNP didn’t have to do anything really.

.

What a nice fellow you are

I think you’ll find scotroutes that konabunny was taking the piss. IIRC knonabuny is part-Scottish.

I think there was suppose to be some sort of joke there, too subtle for my simple brain to fully understand, along the lines of “have you stopped beating up your wife – just answer yes or no”

bearGrease – Member
Six Prime Minister represented Scottish Constituencies Whilst Prime Minister:
William Gladstone
Henry Campbell Bannerman
Herbert Henry Asquith
Andrew Bonar Law
Sir Alec Douglas-Home
And of course Gordon Brown
Other PMs have been born in Scotland including Tony Blair.
Your question reveals more about the chip on your shoulder than your knowledge of history.

And not one of them would have got into that position if they were independence advocates. You don’t get to be PM of the UK by advocating its breakup, although some were keen on Irish Home Rule.

What chip? The democracy one? I just believe that self determination would work better for Scotland.

ernie_lynch – Member
….IIRC knonabuny is part-Scottish.

Jim Murphy is Scottish too.

Unfortunately… 🙂

epicyclo – Member

What chip? The democracy one? I just believe that self determination would work better for Scotland.

The overloads patter isn’t a good look.

epicyclo – Member
What chip? The democracy one?

No, the other one. As Joseph pointed out accusing those South of the border to be wholly responsible for the problems of Scotland makes you look like a shining wit (as per Spooner).

bearGrease – Member
epicyclo – Member
What chip? The democracy one?
No, the other one. As Joseph pointed out accusing those South of the border to be wholly responsible for the problems of Scotland makes you look like a shining wit (as per Spooner).

Where did I do that?

A UK govt has to have policies that suits the majority of its electorate. That leads to the needs of minorities being ignored or placed to one side.

In the case of Scotland independence (or home rule) removes that problem for us.

Hopefully my home boy DC tells jimmy crankie to get back to hobbiton and doesn’t allow her any more power than was outlined in Devo max, that and anything the SNP want to discuss in Westminster is immediately shut down! It’s about time these racists stopped having any influence over the UK!

epicyclo – Member
In the case of Scotland independence (or home rule) removes that problem for us.

is Scotland minority free? 😆

Where did I do that?

Three times on the last page:

I wonder what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?

and

So I’ll repeat the question:

what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?
then

I just wondered if our wise and kind overlords were saving us from ourselves and were being too polite to tell us the real reason

We’d established that you’re a shining wit and now you’ve confirmed you’re a self delusional shining wit.

bearGrease – Member
We’d established that you’re a shining wit and now you’ve confirmed you’re a self delusional shining wit.

Unionist, eh?

I see that my post has been deleted, which I assume means it wasn’t quite the brilliant piece of writing I thought it was. I apologise to all.

The point I was (evidently poorly) making was that the question “what kind of racial inferiority is it that means Scots are unable to handle independence?” is like the question “when did you stop beating your wife?” – answering either of them means accepting their entirely false premise. (The second question is well known as an example of this rhetorical device).

What was the moment they transformed from the Tartan Tories into a left wing party?
Good grief, they haven’t been Tartan Tories for more than a generation, back when Labour were a left wing party.

Hmm. The thing is, with the Labour Party you can very clearly pinpoint the moment at which it shifted from being a moderate left wing party to being a centrist party: the rise of Blair (with Smith paving the way), the abolition of Clause 4 and the launch of the New Labour project. When was that moment for the SNP? My impression is that that moment never occurred for the SNP because they have never shifted to the left.

It’s striking that none of the people claiming the SNP is a left wing party are able to:

– identify distinctively left wing policies
– identify when the SNP has described itself as left wing
– reconcile the left wing nature of the SNP with its close relationship with Souter, Gloag and Murdoch
– explain why it is that the English and Welsh electorate should have lurched to the right and voted for a right wing government, but the Scottish electorate should have lurched to the left and voted for a left wing party. It’s unprecedented for the Scotch to vote in a radically different way from the English when you compare the social profile of the constituencies involved
– resist claiming that the SNP’s critics are Unionist/Tory stooges…

epicyclo – Member
Unionist, eh?

Einstein, eh?

Your powers of deduction are as remarkable as your predilection for blaming the country’s ills on mythical “overlords”.

Hopefully my home boy DC tells jimmy crankie to get back to hobbiton and doesn’t allow her any more power than was outlined in Devo max, that and anything the SNP want to discuss in Westminster is immediately shut down! It’s about time these racists stopped having any influence over the UK!

A fully trained weapons grade idiot at that.

bearGrease – Member
epicyclo – Member
Unionist, eh?

Einstein, eh?
Your powers of deduction are as remarkable as your predilection for blaming the country’s ills on mythical “overlords”.
I would define an overlord as an unelected person in power, so they are hardly mythical.

If you could reduce them to mythical status I would honour your name forever, although I am not sure to what vile purpose you would grease a bear, but in the meantime, seeing as you have a predilection for trading insults and I have not yet given one in return:

May the bowels of one thousand flying camels empty upon your head and bring peace to your troubled soul.

Konabunny I don’t think anyone is claiming the SNP is a socialist party, it certainly originally set out to be a home for everyone in favour of independence, but has over a period of about 50 years since publication of a booklet “SNP and You” in the 60s shifted leftwards and is imo a social democratic party. You can check the snp entry on wiki.
I also don’t think the Scottish people have

lurched to the left

but Labour including SLAB lurched to the right.

A fully trained weapons grade idiot at that.

I was just assuming he was a blatantly obvious troll.

Either that, or he really is a gangster and David Cameron is his homeboy, whatever that means.

gordimhor – spot on. My politics haven’t changed at all, it’s the Labour party that’s shifted to the right and the SNP have taken their place.

All this left-right distinction – I really can’t be bothered working out where on some linear scale each party’s policies put it. I don’t want Trident. I want free University education and no commercial involvement in the NHS. I don’t like the demonisation of immigrants and asylum seekers. If that makes me left-wing then fine, it also means I agree with the SNP and not Labour.

I don’t want Trident. I want free University education and no commercial involvement in the NHS. I don’t like the demonisation of immigrants and asylum seekers.

Don’t you think that makes you, Ann Gloag, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch strange bedfellows*, then?

* Brian Souter would not approve of this term.

Don’t you think that makes you, Ann Gloag, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch strange bedfellows*, then?

I’m a vegetarian. Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore I have a lot on common with Hitler.

That’s a pretty poor analogy (and a deliberately bad one designed so you can avoid answering the question, I think).

Don’t you think that makes you, Ann Gloag, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch strange bedfellows*, then?

I have no idea of the reasons that any of those three have for claiming, or otherwise, to support the SNP. I am also unconcerned by it as it does not change my reasons for being a member of the SNP. I joined because I like their policies, not because of their fans. They are social democrats – that’s a good place from which to do politics in my view.

If SNP can establish branches in the south then I think Labour will be insignificant as opposition party for a long long time. SNP can easily replace Labour as opposition party if they get it right.

Freeedddooommm! 😆