Another war in Palestine

Imagine being a 20 year old guy born in Gaza, what prospects do you have?

Imprisonment in an Israeli jail?

40% of Palestinian men serve time in Israeli prisons, after being hauled before a military court.

And it can be for as little as flying the Palestinian flag.

Although many plead guilty despite being innocent because they know that they stand no chance of a fair trial in a military court, and plead bargaining is likely to result in a lighter sentence for them.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails

And yet you felt the compulsion to say “Shows exactly how much you know, Ernie” because I didn’t know details of your personal situation.

That’s kind of the point Ernie. You don’t know. You think you do, but you don’t. About me or about the situation in general.

No I don’t think that I know anything about you and your situation!

I have no idea why you say that. With the greatest respect this thread isn’t about you.

I hope you get home safe FlyingOx.  suffice to say you are being trolled by the looks of it.

I wish we had a button we could use to give people a timeout

With the greatest respect this thread isn’t about you.

I think it’s pretty clear this thread is about you and your whataboutery.

The Russian view on all this tells you all you need to know about who is driving these events, and why.

Russian propagandist Solovyev about the attack of Hamas on Israel. pic.twitter.com/Clwwbp2LAW

— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) October 8, 2023

Iran’s regime seems prepared for its people to pay a terrible price for helping turn US attention away from Ukraine for a while.

The Russian view on all this tells you all you need to know about who is driving these events, and why

am I missing something? that seemed to be a fairly impartial statement of facts – there was an attack that israel failed to defend, although it was possibly predictable.

I think it’s pretty clear this thread is about you and your take on the situation.

Oh how ironic.

Why don’t you take squirrelking’s advice? If you don’t agree with my veiws concerning Palestine it is not compulsory to argue with them. Just post your alternative veiws on the subject💡

Iran gains by attention turned away from its nuclear programme.

Will Israel turn to Iran next?

So much bitter, never-ending hate in that part of the world. I honestly think they should just have one final, all-out winner takes all war and be done with it. None of those ideologies seem capable of making and concessions or understanding the other.

Fresh instability in the Middle East also helps Putin by possibly torpedoing the Saudi/Israel peace deal, depending on the scale of the military reaction. This could cause oil and gas prices to rise, which is good for the Russian economy, obviously, as they are still exporting a fair amount to Europe and elsewhere by various means.

Radio 4 is discussing the on going situation at the moment (9am-0945) . Probably on catch up if you want to listen to it later.

Thanks retro will catch up on that.

That R4 show was excellent. Calm, rational debate from all participants giving really good insight.

This thread on the other hand…

to shoot at soldiers who were not shooting at you is criminal…I have little truck with British Imperialism.

A strongly-worded resolution of condemnation, then? Maybe a petition instead?

tjagain
Full Member

there is no Israeli cause.  They stole a country.  Thats the facts of the matter and the root of the conflict.

Really, TJ, this is beneath you.

… and the root cause of the conflict

I don’t think there is much doubt that “Al-Nakba” is the root cause of the situation in Palestine today. I can’t imagine what else you can blame it on.

The Palestinian people were forced to pay the price for the appalling atrocities committed by Europeans against the Jewish people.

And the price was extraordinarily heavy.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/5/15/nakba-mapping-palestinian-villages-destroyed-by-israel-in-1948

Zionist military forces expelled at least 750,000 Palestinians from their homes and lands and captured 78 percent of historic Palestine. The remaining 22 percent was divided into what are now the occupied West Bank and the besieged Gaza Strip

Israel’s military occupation of Palestine remains at the core of this decades-long conflict that continues to shape every part of Palestinians’ lives.

tjagain
Full Member

there is no Israeli cause. They stole a country. Thats the facts of the matter and the root of the conflict.

Nonsense like this is why this conflict has been running for decades. Israel is recognized as a sovereign state my nearly all other countries and is a member of the U.N. It’s not going away and calls by Palestinian and Arab leaders for its destruction are counterproductive because they mean the Israel will not trust any peace treaty. It’s an open secret that Israel has undeclared nuclear weapons, which serve as a deterrent against invasion by its neighbours. Neighboring countries know that, even if they did manage to beat the Israel military, their own cities would be incinerated if they overran Israel. Countries like Egypt realized decades ago that they have to coexist with Israel, so they recognized it diplomatically and signed peace treaties. Like it or not, that’s the reality. Israel exists and any peace settlement has to acknowledge that.

Groups like Hamas aren’t interested in any peace settlement. They are militant groups who have vowed to destroy Israel. If they acknowledged Israel’s right to exist and negotiated a peace settlement, their backers would switch their funding to other groups. The only way to achieve a peace settlement is for Israeli moderates to regain power and for moderate Palestinian leaders to accept Israel’s existence and show that they can prevent attacks on Israel from within Palestinian territory.

The events this week make that prospect even more difficult to achieve than before. Having tankies in Western countries denying Israel’s right to exist and cheering on the killing of Israeli civilians just hands Israeli right-wingers the propaganda they need. It lets them claim that the world doesn’t care about Jewish lives so the only way for Israel to be safe is to refuse to negotiate. I think the right-wingers are wrong about that, so the only hope for an improvement is to support more moderate Israelis. The foundation of that is acknowledging the reality that Israel is a legitimate country that is a member of the U.N. and that killing Israeli civilians is not acceptable. If you can’t do that, you are part of the problem, not part of any solution.

Nonsense like this is why this conflict has been running for decades. Israel is recognized as a sovereign state my nearly all other countries and is a member of the U.N. It’s not going away

That may be so but it doesn’t negate TJ’s point that the root of the conflict is Israel’s existence on someone else’s land.

tankies

You used this silly word before. It seems to be a lot like “woke”  (or “terrorist”, for that matter) – means nothing, but alerts the reader to the writer’s prejudices.

Just in case anyone thought that mass killing of Israeli civilians would improve the lot of Palestinians. This is the totally predictable response. Israel and Hamas are at war and the first thing you do in a war is impose a blockade.

“i ordered a full siege on the gaza
strip. no power, no food, no gas, everything is closed." – israel defense minister yoav gallant

population of gaza: 2.2 million

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) October 9, 2023

Just in case anyone thought that mass killing of Israeli civilians would improve the lot of Palestinians.

Nobody thought that. But as the Jewish people of Israel have democratically chosen to degrade the lives of Palestinians over decades, it’s hard to recommend a course of action that would make matters better.

This is the totally predictable response. Israel and Hamas are at war and the first thing you do in a war is impose a blockade.

Predictable that Israel would punish an innocent civilian population? Yes, I guess it is.

If you call for balance during<em style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;”> one side’s attack, you diminish its significance and implicitly excuse it.

If you go straight to whataboutery, it explicitly excuses and even justifies the violence that’s happening <em style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;”>at that moment, and it does so using the same reasoning that lead to the aggression.

There’s a time to “apply condemnation equally” but it’s not when <em style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;”>one side is in the midst of committing indiscriminate murder.

But this isn’t just one side attacking; Following the initial attacks by Hamas militants, Israel has responded using brutal force. So it’s now two sides committing indiscriminate murder. You cannot focus on one side and ignore the actions of the other. So condemnation must be equal of both sides. Nobody has ‘gone straight to whataboutery’. Nobody is explicitly excusing or even justifying the actions of Hamas. Nobody. Yet there are clearly those who choose to ignore what the Israeli military is doing right now. They are bombing civilians; women and children, innocents. So their actions need condemning as much as those of Hamas.

I also don’t think this is the time to be arguing about the history of this corner of the Middle East. The discussion needs to be about how the long term situation can be resolved, if at all. And at the root of it all is money. As long as this conflict continues, somebody will be making money. The US has announced military support; this will of course come at a price to Israel at some stage. And the arms dealers and manufacturers will be rubbing their hands together in glee. Do you really think that Israel gets so much Western support because the West really cares about the right of self-determination for Jewish people?  As I said before; that’s a smokescreen. Israel gets the support it does because it serves western (mainly US) imperialist interests. It’s very useful to have a client state that can be relied upon to keep others in check; as the Middle East opened up for oil, so it was seen as necessary by the West to have some way of keeping the Arabs in their place. Arming Israel was the perfect answer. The British also did this in Iran and /Iraq, but that didn’t turn out so well. Certainly not for the people of those countries. So whilst Israel continues to be useful, so war crimes and situations like Israel’s involvement with Azerbaijan will go uncriticised and largely ignored. Russia also now has vested interests; Israels population has been swelled in recent years by a huge influx of Russian Jews making Aliyah. This has helped boost military conscription, and obviously has been a boon to the Israeli economy. And now Saudi Arabia is trying to get in on the act. It’s not rocket science; it’s just Capitalism.

I have no answer to the problem of the formatting issue above. 

Predictable that

…this thread has depressingly gone exactly the way that most moderate forum members would have expected

the root of the conflict is Israel’s existence on someone else’s land.

I’m not super clued up on the area, but wasn’t the reason it was put there that jewish people had been kicked out of the area a couple of thousand years previously? if we go back to “I was there first”, who knows who was there before that..

So condemnation must be equal of both sides.

No, it doesn’t. This is just classic whataboutery. What Hamas did this week was just pure sadistic murder of civilians, with absolutely no military purpose. Hamas and Israel have been in a simmering conflict for many years. The Israeli government gambled that it was best to just contain it rather than try to resolve the underlying issues. Along with many other people, I think that was a profoundly wrong approach, but the conflict was contained. What Hamas did, apparently with Iranian backing, was to blow the conflict into an utterly brutal all-out war so it’s no longer contained. That’s because Hamas (or Iran) decided it was in their interests to escalate to a full-on war.

What Israel has not done is follow Hamas’s example of kidnapping civilians off the street, raping and torturing them, and then murdering them just for fun. Nor have they made videos of old people being murdered and posted them online to energize their followers. What Israel has done is the very first thing that any country in an open war does – they have blockaded their opponent. Did anybody imagine for a second that a blockade wouldn’t be the first thing they did?

That’s not to say that I think Israel’s policies over the last few decades were justified. I think they were profoundly wrong and just served to kick the can down the road instead of resolving the problems. However, believing that Israel’s polices were wrong does not require the belief that the crimes on each side were equal. What Hamas did this week was much, much worse and whataboutery will not change that.

The whole thing is a mess and whatever the situation for improving Israeli and Palestinian relationships over Gaza and Palestine was, who is right or wrong etc; You can debate settlers, Gaza, treatment of Palestine etc but Saturday was a turning point and not for the better. Hamas have just chucked it out the door for the foreseeable (it is quite clear they are the same as ISIS but with different ambitions)

As someone articulated far better than me, both sides will need to find more moderate views but a lot of normal people are going to die.

What Hamas did this week was much, much worse

Ernie has already posted a link to statistics of casualties on both sides. If you’re just going to invent stuff, there’s really no point continuing.

@5lab, probably ~10000 years. It’s been a simmering pile of tinder for at least all the time there has been scripture. It only ever works when there are moderates on both sides. What there is now is the worst of both worlds. I can only see this escalating horrifically.

The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.

Or Iran

Wasn’t there a snippet from the US state department last night, that as far as they can see Iran has played no part in this or its funding.

But feel free just to throw out these unsubstantiated statements.

Wasn’t there a snippet from the US state department last night, that as far as they can see Iran has played no part in this or its funding.

I think this more to do with the US unfreezing some sanctioned cash, which can only be spent on food / humanitarian aid. US MAGA types were posting that the unfrozed funds were use to finance this attack. See also ukraine weapons being used and other nonsense

Haaretz agrees with DrJ, Netanyahu has helped bring this about. I’m sitting in a bar in GC mildly worried that the Berbers might comeback from 2000 yrs ago and declare a dry state.

more on what’s known on Irans involvement so far https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/1711260669696250295

No, it doesn’t. This is just classic whataboutery. What Hamas did this week was just pure sadistic murder of civilians, with absolutely no military purpose. Hamas and Israel have been in a simmering conflict for many years. The Israeli government gambled that it was best to just contain it rather than try to resolve the underlying issues. Along with many other people, I think that was a profoundly wrong approach, but the conflict was contained. What Hamas did, apparently with Iranian backing, was to blow the conflict into an utterly brutal all-out war so it’s no longer contained. That’s because Hamas (or Iran) decided it was in their interests to escalate to a full-on war.

What Israel has not done is follow Hamas’s example of kidnapping civilians off the street, raping and torturing them, and then murdering them just for fun. Nor have they made videos of old people being murdered and posted them online to energize their followers. What Israel has done is the very first thing that any country in an open war does – they have blockaded their opponent. Did anybody imagine for a second that a blockade wouldn’t be the first thing they did?

Im sorry; now you just sound like an apologist for Israeli war crimes. Everything you say Hamas have done, Israel has done many times over. Kidnap, rape and torture are all part of the tactics used by IDF units and soldiers. Israel has also cut off power and drinking water supplies, poisoned wells, bombed schools and hospitals, and carried out myriad other atrocities. It’s clear from your clear bias and partisanship that you have no interest in acknowledging the crimes on all sides. You clearly have an agenda, and that’s your choice, but you can’t be considered a reasonable contributor to a debate if you refuse to acknowledge facts.

The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu.

Likewise, I disagree with this. The responsibility lies on both sides, with the leadership of both Hamas and the Israeli government. Because both are guilty of atrocities and war crimes. As the leader of a so-called democracy, Netanyahu has a responsibility to act proportionately and within international law, which he is clearly not doing so. But to blame him alone is not only disingenuous, it’s also dangerous, as it fails to recognise the greater picture. There are many in the current Israeli government and beyond, who are more than willing to escalate this situation, and there are those in Hamas driven by near-identical ideology, so together it’s an absolute disaster. Of course the balance of power lies with Israel, but even if peace were to suddenly break out, you would still need to deal with the fundamentalist extremists on both sides. It is really not a black and white situation.

The Israeli government gambled that it was best to just contain it rather than try to resolve the underlying issues. Along with many other people, I think that was a profoundly wrong approach, but the conflict was contained

It was only contained in the sense Hamas never tried such a large scale and coordinated attack before, they have now. A lot of blame needs to be laid at the door of Western countries to, especially the US – the policy of publicly backing Israel regardless of what they did, whether due to the strength of the pro-Israeli lobby or through fear of any criticism being portrayed as anti-Semitism instead of anti-Zionism, just enabled the current Zionist Israeli government to continue ever more draconian oppression of the Palestinian people without fear of losing the Western support they need. I’m sure some behind-the-scenes diplomacy went on to try and curtail the Israeli government but clearly it didn’t amount to much.

oh this might be the thing you mean @dyna-ti

On Morning Edition, we asked White House Dep Natl Sec Adviser Jon Finer about Hamas sources who told the WSJ Iran approved the attack.

Finer said neither the US nor Israel have evidence of direct Iranian involvement, though Iran is “complicit” in backing Hamas for “decades.”

— Steve Inskeep (@NPRinskeep) October 9, 2023

there is also https://twitter.com/yossi_melman/status/1711253641573584970

Likewise, I disagree with this. 

Sorry, as BillMC spotted I just cut and pasted from Haaretz. The point was just to say that even in Israel it’s possible to go beyond the Daily Mail-style cliches and over-simplifications. 

The Russian view on all this tells you all you need to know about who is driving these events, and why.

Its no surprise the Russians/Iran etc are behind the recent conflict/war/slaughter as the west has managed the sum total of absolutely ****-all for the Palestinians over the previous 60+years while appeasing the Israelis with aid, financial help and military help, when you have no where else to turn for help where do you turn?.

when you have no where else to turn for help where do you turn?

Up thread, ernie pointed out that the Palestinians are paying the price for what the Europeans have done to the Jews for centuries, and @brownperson points out that it’s capitalism, I’d add to that, the regional powers using it as a proxy for their power-manoeuvring. However you slice it, the Palestinians end up paying the price for all of it, and I don’t think they have anyone who is their true friends, they just seem to be the group of people that the world has agreed can be exploited and killed without consequence.

I don’t think this Israeli govt is capable of peace and I don’t think Hamas is either. all they’re capable of is death and horror.

It was only contained in the sense Hamas never tried such a large scale and coordinated attack before, they have now. A lot of blame needs to be laid at the door of Western countries to,

I believe that Israel called it “cutting the grass” or something. They would try and target the worst of the Hamas militant on the assumption that they could contain the conflict indefinitely.

The problem with Hamas, which is glaringly obvious now, is that they are an extremely dangerous militant group who have no interest in a negotiated peace. Everyone knew that before and no Western country was going to openly support them. Now that the world has seen the images of the last few days, Hamas are completely discredited. They are utterly toxic and no Western country will even be willing to talk to their leaders in secret. No improvement in the lives of Gaza citizens will be possible until Hamas are out of power because no Western country will want to be seen to support Hamas.