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I think Ernie's post is begging for a response in the form of a "who's who" of the Hamas government in Palestine. Well I've got an unknown number of days before I'm able to get out of Israel so I'll do a deep dive.
I have a feeling it won't be pretty, but at least we'll know where his sympathies lie.
The alternative to legal armed resistance is of course peaceful protest.
Israeli Military Order 101 specifically bans Palestinians from engaging in peaceful protest. And has done for over 50 years.
All Palestinians are tried in military courts.
I have a feeling it won’t be pretty, but at least we’ll know where his sympathies lie.
Don't be in any doubt where my sympathies lie, they lie foursquare behind the Palestinian people.
And the reason? Well look at the above Amnesty International link for some clues.
Although perhaps you feel that Amnesty International must support atrocities because they clearly have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people?
Btw I am sorry that you have been forced to leave your home FlyingOx, I have a lot of sympathy for people who are driven from their homes. I'm sure you do too.
<br />I’m not saying your grandfather individually had much of a say in the matter.
I would be surprised if he did - he was only a private at the time.
Yes, the United Kingdom government wasn’t moving quickly, but to shoot at soldiers who were not shooting at you is criminal. We were not at war with the Jewish settlers. Despite what was happening at the time - according to him, he faced no violence from Arab Palestinians.
I have little truck with British Imperialism. My fathers side of the family originated in one country that suffered as part of the Empire and lived in another which only gained independence in the late 1960’s. Part of it’s territories are still controlled by the United Kingdom with Diego Garcia leased to the United States.
Don’t be in any doubt where my sympathies lie, they lie foursquare behind the Palestinian people.
Sorry Ernie, but it appears some here feel you shouldn't be allowed to hold such views. At least it seems that way from the personal attacks posted directly against you on this thread.
YOu can be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause without excusing terrorism. To understand the roots of the conflict does not mean you agree with the use of indiscriminate violence and murder on either side.
If you want to swap atrocity stories there are plenty by both sides.
A plague on both their houses. "an eye for an eye makes us all blind" Bloody old testamentarians
Shows exactly how much you know, Ernie.
I know absolutely nothing about your circumstances FlyingOx, you claimed to have been evacuated to northern Israel, I assumed that you had a home from which you were evacuated - that after all is what usually happens when someone claims to have been "evacuated".
What does my lack of knowledge of the precise details of your current accommodation have to do with my support for the people who are living under Israeli occupation?
I am not entitled to have any sympathy for them because I don't know where you live?
Only a prize **** would be arguing semantics around the word "evacuation" in a situation like this
And there's no "claim" about it, I was under direct rocket attack, with some landing 100m away despite the presence of an Iron Dome... thing.. I have photos of the fires in Ashkelon and Ashdod as well as photos immediately prior to the video everyone's seen on the news re: Israel's fisrt retalatory strike on Gaza. I would post here but who knows what trouble it might get me in.
Well said. I hope you find safety, and peace....
It seems like this will go on for a long time. Hamas are terrorists, the Israeli government are terrorists. The balance of power is firmly on the side of the Israeli terrorists and not the Palestinian terrorists, meaning when it's all happening, Palestinian civilians will suffer on a greater scale.
It's distressing to watch.
For those who do not understand what a hideous crime has and still is being committed against an entire people look at this.
@tjagain that map is a propaganda piece created within the last couple of decades designed to give the impression of creeping land theft over many decades.
The area it calls Palestine in the 1st image never existed as a country. Along with neighbouring Transjordan, it was an administrative area created by the League of Nations after the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI. Under the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, the two territories were to be administered by Britain until Jewish and Arab states could be created within them. The area coloured green is all the land not privately owned by Jewish people, regardless of whether it was owned by anyone else.
The 2nd image is the 1947 UN proposal for those states in the Mandatory Palestine area. It was never agreed or enacted. War followed instead, including invasions from Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and Iraq, the day after the British Mandate ended in May 1948
The 1949-67 image shows the borders of the 1949 Armistice Agreement. What it doesn’t show is that the two green areas labelled Palestine were actually annexed by Jordan (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza) during that time.
From 1967 there’s more wars, peace treaties, intifadas, summits. Complex and violent.
I’m not arguing that any of this justifies West Bank settlements. But that map is politically-skewed distortion of the complex and tumultuous 20th century history of that area. Sharing it is frankly dodgy.
YOu can be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause without excusing terrorism.
Absolutely. That’s where I started, very one-sidedly actually. It took me many years to come to understand the Israeli cause (gaining Jewish family was a big part of that).
there is no Israeli cause. They stole a country. Thats the facts of the matter and the root of the conflict.
Sorry Ernie, but it appears some here feel you shouldn’t be allowed to hold such views.
No, it's the complete imbalance (and usual scraping of any excuse for an argument) that's getting people's backs up. To expand on TJs last post it's possible to have sympathy for both and it doesn't have to be unconditional as some seem to suggest.
Just to be clear, coming out with some shite about all your sympathy being with the Palestinians and a load of stuff about Isreal being the aggressors the day after Hamas massacres a load of folk (who weren't all Isrealis) is tone deaf at best and extreme **** ishness at worst.
I hate what Isreal has done, does and will continue to do. It's utterly abhorrent that we allow such things to happen in this day and age. But make no mistake, the attack by Hamas was nothing more than utter cowardice and I'd gladly see every participant hung as I would for any similar attack by anyone on any side of a conflict. They launched a wholesale indescriminate attack on unarmed civilians, raped, murder and defiled them and will no doubt disappear back amongst their own populace using them as human shields and martyr fodder to further their own cause.
I think I'm going to disengage now as there's clearly no chance of reasoned debate and I'm not in the mood for a holiday.
@theflyingox stay safe, hope you get out soon.
@tjagain do you think they stole it from the British or the Turks?
edit: you have to ignore over 3000 years of history to make a simplistic claim like “stole”. There are competing claims is about the best you can say.
I’m out too.
*looks in for some useful insight or news. Sees usual suspects arguing the toss and being pretty obnoxious. Think I’ll stick to diy and bike threads…
The US is sending a carrier strike force to the Eastern Med in support of Israel. Gaza is likely to be wiped off the face of the earth.
Not by the US it won't be, they are there primarily as a deterrent vs Iran. They'll also be providing intelligence support to Israel no doubt but I can't believe they'll launch missile or air attacks on Gaza. I also doubt Israel will go much further than occupying Gaza City (or part of it anyway), trying to wipe out Gaza would not only be extremely costly in terms of men & materiel but they know they'd lose a lot of support (although likely just Arab ones in the short-term). It would almost certainly fully bring in Hezbollah as well (they seem mostly to be sniping from the edges currently, being careful not to escalate beyond border posts) and whilst Israel would no doubt prevail it would be extremely costly to them given how well Hezbollah has supposedly been armed by Iran.
As for this conflict - firstly **** religion, it's the root of all evil and it's depressing that the human race hasn't been able to move past it. Secondly, Hamas' actions should never be condoned but I'm not sure what else is to be expected if you violently oppress a people for so long and with a right-wing Zionist Israeli government meaning no prospect of change for years more. Imagine being a 20 year old guy born in Gaza, what prospects do you have? You're condemned to live in a shit hole with virtually no hope of leaving and/or bettering your situation. Whilst Hamas taking power is a large part of the reason things are so bad in Gaza what other way to you have to push back against your oppression than by joining them? If a people don't have anything to live for it's no surprise some will find a cause to die for.
Ernie - you should seek help. Your vexatious, pseudo-casuistic posting style is alarming at best.
I've called you out several times for it. You're either a complete moron or you've got issues that need professional help
I don't care why you frequently spout utter bollocks I just know that you ruin the forum for many users.
Have a day off FFS
Imagine being a 20 year old guy born in Gaza, what prospects do you have?
Imprisonment in an Israeli jail?
40% of Palestinian men serve time in Israeli prisons, after being hauled before a military court.
And it can be for as little as flying the Palestinian flag.
Although many plead guilty despite being innocent because they know that they stand no chance of a fair trial in a military court, and plead bargaining is likely to result in a lighter sentence for them.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails
And yet you felt the compulsion to say “Shows exactly how much you know, Ernie” because I didn’t know details of your personal situation.
That's kind of the point Ernie. You don't know. You think you do, but you don't. About me or about the situation in general.
No I don't think that I know anything about you and your situation!
I have no idea why you say that. With the greatest respect this thread isn't about you.
I hope you get home safe FlyingOx. suffice to say you are being trolled by the looks of it.
I wish we had a button we could use to give people a timeout
With the greatest respect this thread isn’t about you.
I think it's pretty clear this thread is about you and your whataboutery.
The Russian view on all this tells you all you need to know about who is driving these events, and why.
https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1710992905475662043
Iran's regime seems prepared for its people to pay a terrible price for helping turn US attention away from Ukraine for a while.
The Russian view on all this tells you all you need to know about who is driving these events, and why
am I missing something? that seemed to be a fairly impartial statement of facts - there was an attack that israel failed to defend, although it was possibly predictable.
I think it’s pretty clear this thread is about you and your take on the situation.
Oh how ironic.
Why don't you take squirrelking's advice? If you don't agree with my veiws concerning Palestine it is not compulsory to argue with them. Just post your alternative veiws on the subject💡
Iran gains by attention turned away from its nuclear programme.
Will Israel turn to Iran next?
So much bitter, never-ending hate in that part of the world. I honestly think they should just have one final, all-out winner takes all war and be done with it. None of those ideologies seem capable of making and concessions or understanding the other.
Fresh instability in the Middle East also helps Putin by possibly torpedoing the Saudi/Israel peace deal, depending on the scale of the military reaction. This could cause oil and gas prices to rise, which is good for the Russian economy, obviously, as they are still exporting a fair amount to Europe and elsewhere by various means.
Radio 4 is discussing the on going situation at the moment (9am-0945) . Probably on catch up if you want to listen to it later.
Thanks retro will catch up on that.
to shoot at soldiers who were not shooting at you is criminal...I have little truck with British Imperialism.
A strongly-worded resolution of condemnation, then? Maybe a petition instead?
tjagain
Full Memberthere is no Israeli cause. They stole a country. Thats the facts of the matter and the root of the conflict.
Really, TJ, this is beneath you.
... and the root cause of the conflict
I don't think there is much doubt that "Al-Nakba" is the root cause of the situation in Palestine today. I can't imagine what else you can blame it on.
The Palestinian people were forced to pay the price for the appalling atrocities committed by Europeans against the Jewish people.
And the price was extraordinarily heavy.
Zionist military forces expelled at least 750,000 Palestinians from their homes and lands and captured 78 percent of historic Palestine. The remaining 22 percent was divided into what are now the occupied West Bank and the besieged Gaza Strip
Israel’s military occupation of Palestine remains at the core of this decades-long conflict that continues to shape every part of Palestinians’ lives.
tjagain
Full Memberthere is no Israeli cause. They stole a country. Thats the facts of the matter and the root of the conflict.
Nonsense like this is why this conflict has been running for decades. Israel is recognized as a sovereign state my nearly all other countries and is a member of the U.N. It's not going away and calls by Palestinian and Arab leaders for its destruction are counterproductive because they mean the Israel will not trust any peace treaty. It's an open secret that Israel has undeclared nuclear weapons, which serve as a deterrent against invasion by its neighbours. Neighboring countries know that, even if they did manage to beat the Israel military, their own cities would be incinerated if they overran Israel. Countries like Egypt realized decades ago that they have to coexist with Israel, so they recognized it diplomatically and signed peace treaties. Like it or not, that's the reality. Israel exists and any peace settlement has to acknowledge that.
Groups like Hamas aren't interested in any peace settlement. They are militant groups who have vowed to destroy Israel. If they acknowledged Israel's right to exist and negotiated a peace settlement, their backers would switch their funding to other groups. The only way to achieve a peace settlement is for Israeli moderates to regain power and for moderate Palestinian leaders to accept Israel's existence and show that they can prevent attacks on Israel from within Palestinian territory.
The events this week make that prospect even more difficult to achieve than before. Having tankies in Western countries denying Israel's right to exist and cheering on the killing of Israeli civilians just hands Israeli right-wingers the propaganda they need. It lets them claim that the world doesn't care about Jewish lives so the only way for Israel to be safe is to refuse to negotiate. I think the right-wingers are wrong about that, so the only hope for an improvement is to support more moderate Israelis. The foundation of that is acknowledging the reality that Israel is a legitimate country that is a member of the U.N. and that killing Israeli civilians is not acceptable. If you can't do that, you are part of the problem, not part of any solution.
Nonsense like this is why this conflict has been running for decades. Israel is recognized as a sovereign state my nearly all other countries and is a member of the U.N. It’s not going away
That may be so but it doesn't negate TJ's point that the root of the conflict is Israel's existence on someone else's land.
tankies
You used this silly word before. It seems to be a lot like "woke" (or "terrorist", for that matter) - means nothing, but alerts the reader to the writer's prejudices.
Just in case anyone thought that mass killing of Israeli civilians would improve the lot of Palestinians. This is the totally predictable response. Israel and Hamas are at war and the first thing you do in a war is impose a blockade.
https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1711323387727941983
Just in case anyone thought that mass killing of Israeli civilians would improve the lot of Palestinians.
Nobody thought that. But as the Jewish people of Israel have democratically chosen to degrade the lives of Palestinians over decades, it's hard to recommend a course of action that would make matters better.
This is the totally predictable response. Israel and Hamas are at war and the first thing you do in a war is impose a blockade.
Predictable that Israel would punish an innocent civilian population? Yes, I guess it is.
If you call for balance during<em style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;"> one side’s attack, you diminish its significance and implicitly excuse it.
If you go straight to whataboutery, it explicitly excuses and even justifies the violence that’s happening <em style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;">at that moment, and it does so using the same reasoning that lead to the aggression.
There’s a time to “apply condemnation equally” but it’s not when <em style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;">one side is in the midst of committing indiscriminate murder.
But this isn't just one side attacking; Following the initial attacks by Hamas militants, Israel has responded using brutal force. So it's now two sides committing indiscriminate murder. You cannot focus on one side and ignore the actions of the other. So condemnation must be equal of both sides. Nobody has 'gone straight to whataboutery'. Nobody is explicitly excusing or even justifying the actions of Hamas. Nobody. Yet there are clearly those who choose to ignore what the Israeli military is doing right now. They are bombing civilians; women and children, innocents. So their actions need condemning as much as those of Hamas.
I also don't think this is the time to be arguing about the history of this corner of the Middle East. The discussion needs to be about how the long term situation can be resolved, if at all. And at the root of it all is money. As long as this conflict continues, somebody will be making money. The US has announced military support; this will of course come at a price to Israel at some stage. And the arms dealers and manufacturers will be rubbing their hands together in glee. Do you really think that Israel gets so much Western support because the West really cares about the right of self-determination for Jewish people? As I said before; that's a smokescreen. Israel gets the support it does because it serves western (mainly US) imperialist interests. It's very useful to have a client state that can be relied upon to keep others in check; as the Middle East opened up for oil, so it was seen as necessary by the West to have some way of keeping the Arabs in their place. Arming Israel was the perfect answer. The British also did this in Iran and /Iraq, but that didn't turn out so well. Certainly not for the people of those countries. So whilst Israel continues to be useful, so war crimes and situations like Israel's involvement with Azerbaijan will go uncriticised and largely ignored. Russia also now has vested interests; Israels population has been swelled in recent years by a huge influx of Russian Jews making Aliyah. This has helped boost military conscription, and obviously has been a boon to the Israeli economy. And now Saudi Arabia is trying to get in on the act. It's not rocket science; it's just Capitalism.
I have no answer to the problem of the formatting issue above.
Predictable that
...this thread has depressingly gone exactly the way that most moderate forum members would have expected
the root of the conflict is Israel’s existence on someone else’s land.
I'm not super clued up on the area, but wasn't the reason it was put there that jewish people had been kicked out of the area a couple of thousand years previously? if we go back to "I was there first", who knows who was there before that..
So condemnation must be equal of both sides.
No, it doesn't. This is just classic whataboutery. What Hamas did this week was just pure sadistic murder of civilians, with absolutely no military purpose. Hamas and Israel have been in a simmering conflict for many years. The Israeli government gambled that it was best to just contain it rather than try to resolve the underlying issues. Along with many other people, I think that was a profoundly wrong approach, but the conflict was contained. What Hamas did, apparently with Iranian backing, was to blow the conflict into an utterly brutal all-out war so it's no longer contained. That's because Hamas (or Iran) decided it was in their interests to escalate to a full-on war.
What Israel has not done is follow Hamas's example of kidnapping civilians off the street, raping and torturing them, and then murdering them just for fun. Nor have they made videos of old people being murdered and posted them online to energize their followers. What Israel has done is the very first thing that any country in an open war does - they have blockaded their opponent. Did anybody imagine for a second that a blockade wouldn't be the first thing they did?
That's not to say that I think Israel's policies over the last few decades were justified. I think they were profoundly wrong and just served to kick the can down the road instead of resolving the problems. However, believing that Israel's polices were wrong does not require the belief that the crimes on each side were equal. What Hamas did this week was much, much worse and whataboutery will not change that.
The whole thing is a mess and whatever the situation for improving Israeli and Palestinian relationships over Gaza and Palestine was, who is right or wrong etc; You can debate settlers, Gaza, treatment of Palestine etc but Saturday was a turning point and not for the better. Hamas have just chucked it out the door for the foreseeable (it is quite clear they are the same as ISIS but with different ambitions)
As someone articulated far better than me, both sides will need to find more moderate views but a lot of normal people are going to die.
What Hamas did this week was much, much worse
Ernie has already posted a link to statistics of casualties on both sides. If you're just going to invent stuff, there's really no point continuing.