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@politecameraaction thank you. We’re truly into **** me they walk among us stuff now.
Two states? Seen several states in SA apartheid, they called them bantustans. That didn't last so well. Yep, my Israeli rellies see the hasideem as 'parasites' because they wouldn't do military service. I'm an atheist but if you want a big pure dose of religion, they are the boys. Otherwise you're in the territory of 'wrong jew' nonsense etc etc.
How much do you guys think this is helping, and not hurting?
BillMCFull Member<br />Two states?
I doubt there's any chance of two states anymore, its been attempted for the previous 35 years and come to **** all.
Humanity is so messed up. This sort of generational hatred is self perpetuating.
It makes the relative peace in NI all the more remarkable and precious.
I’m wondering when the wests sanctions of it chums in Qatar for hosting the hamas government are starting. I suspect I will have a long wait because hypocrisy and double standards are the forte of the west
So, if the whole idea of Israel is to set up a Western Colony to subdue the Muslims, why did the Brits try to prevent Jewish settlers moving to Israel after WW2 & why did we then leave a country we were in control of & when war erupted in 1948 why did the Western powers impose an arms embargo on all belligerents despite Israel being attacked on all sides. I don’t think the historical narrative really supports your theory.
That is a perfectly valid question. Because geopolitics changes, often massively depending on how things develop.
After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire Britian and France moved in establishing North Africa and the Middle East as regions under their control. They maintained a traditional colonial presence in the region until the end of WW2 changed all that.
At the end of WW2 the only independent country in Africa was Ethiopia which had been liberated from Italian rule. However WW2 had made the whole concept of colonial rule in Africa and the Middle East totally unacceptable.
Britian, and France somewhat more reluctantly in the case of Algeria, accepted this. All the more so as the United States, which had no significant territorial empire and had emerged from WW2 as the most powerful nation of earth, supported decolonisation by Britain and France.
That didn't however mean that British and French neocolonial interests could not be served. Britian did not have any particular interest in Palestine as at that time Palestine had very little to offer the British.
What did interest Britian much more though was countries such as Arabia where they established the pro-British Saudi dictatorship, and Iran where they organised the coup which overthrew the democratically elected government and installed the pro-Western dictatorship of the Shah of Iran. Arabia and Iran obviously had something which Palestine didn't have.
And pissing off Arabs and Persians, who you want to serve your interests, over Palestine, was never going to be a clever mood.
During this postwar period France took a slightly different attitude. Partly no doubt because a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust had huge left-wing support, there was clearly an emotional connection. No one really bothered to think of the consequences for the Palestinian people, it wasn't them who had been murdered on an industrial scale by hate-filled Europeans, so they didn't matter - the French Vichy government was implicit in the holocaust.
So at that time France was Israel closest friend, ally, and biggest arms supplier. The United States certainly wasn't.
In fact the United States could be quite hostile towards Israel as it was when it opposed Israel, France, and Britian, over their attack on Egypt over Suez, which was a blatant act of war and imperialism.
Everything changed following the 6 Day War. Oil prices quadrupled overnight. The United States which had plenty of oil fields of their own but found it easier to import much cheaper Middle Eastern oil suddenly started to see the region as vital to their interests.
France placed an arms embargo on Israel and the United States became Israel's main arms supplier. Soviet influence in the region grew. As Israel's treatment of Palestinians became apparent the Left started to abandon Israel and also to realise that Palestinians did matter after all.
Hostility towards the West started to increase, partly in response to the treatment of Palestinian but also because of neocolonialism. The West maintained a strong pro-Western dictatorship in oil rich Iraq but lost oil rich Libya and Iran. The situation became more and more critical during which time Israel's importance to Western neocolonialism constantly increased. Eventually the Left pretty much abandoned Israel and as it lurched evermore to the right and increased its brutal repression of the Palestinian people.
Today United States governments are prepared to pour $billions into Israel and give them 100% support whatever they do, despite (iirc) 41% of Americans having a negative view of Israel, quite simply because Israel serves their interests.
The United States and their Western allies want a stronger and more powerful Israel. Which is why they support armed colonial settlers, many of them Europeans and Americans, who are currently taking land from the indigenous people of Palestine. It is blatant and naked colonialism.
This thread provides a platform for (some of) STW's regular political posters to attempt to 'dominate the airwaves'.
None of their comments will make an iota of difference; the huge chunks of verbiage they post do not inform the debate.
It's a bit like the self-professed know it all kid in school - hand always up; please miss/sir, listen to me.
Israel and Gaza has been a festering political problem for decades which has never been anywhere close to a resolution.
Now the two sides are further apart than ever.
There will be a high number of civilian deaths on both sides and Israel are likely to conduct 'surgical' political assassinations.
Israel is a nuclear power with the ability to use small scale nuclear weapons - they could have against Egypt but didn't.
Which countries in the middle east stand to benefit?
Is there a hidden hand of Russia/China/North Korea? Probably.
Keyboard warriors on STW are just an irrelevance on such an important subject.
With that, I'm out so let the verbiage and pointless posting continue.
Its a thread where a block feature would be beneficial to avoid having to scroll past posts made by some posters, who you know what they are going to do and say, before theyve done it. There'd be no missing out on healthy discussion, only improving it, there's challenging views given far better by other contributors.
yes i think a block or timeout capability is needed....
a particular low point is arguing the toss with one of our members whose just been through some scary shit with rockets flying over head and is trying to get back home.....
as for the wider implications on this war, just take a look at our news. dominated by it. I've seen very little about ukraine. tbh even the Labour conference is a foot note on the beeb. I don't for a second think hamas just decided alone to do a full scale invasion and how was it possible for them to stockpile so many munitions and to do it under Israeli noses.
it is interesting to see how the other middle East countries respond I think most see Iran as a threat, and will likely have a better clue than any of us keyboard warriors of Iranian involvement. that leaves them in potentially a weird dilemma that in supporting hamas they end up strengthening Iran, which I doubt they will want to do.
Tell me you’ve spent an hour on Wikipedia without telling me you’ve spent an hour on Wikipedia.
Nah, more likely ChatGPT working overtime.
Stay safe.
a particular low point is arguing the toss with one of our members whose just been through some scary shit with rockets flying over head and is trying to get back home…..
That's the joy of holding luxury beliefs, you can wax lyrical about what others 'should' with ideal world solutions dreamed up in the safety of your own home without ever facing risk or actually having to put in any of the hard yards.
This thread is good for bringing out the sock puppets and cranks who've never had to face more than a little boo boo from falling off the swings.
If you think someone needs a timeout report the post and see if the mods agree with you.
I’d just like to thank @brownperson for their very balanced contribution to this thread.
100% this!
This thread provides a platform for (some of) STW’s regular political posters to attempt to ‘dominate the airwaves’.
None of their comments will make an iota of difference; the huge chunks of verbiage they post do not inform the debate.
It’s a bit like the self-professed know it all kid in school – hand always up; please miss/sir, listen to me.
Israel and Gaza has been a festering political problem for decades which has never been anywhere close to a resolution.
and this!
a particular low point is arguing the toss with one of our members whose just been through some scary shit with rockets flying over head and is trying to get back home…..
That’s the joy of holding luxury beliefs, you can wax lyrical about what others ‘should’ with ideal world solutions dreamed up in the safety of your own home without ever facing risk or actually having to put in any of the hard yards.
This thread is good for bringing out the sock puppets and cranks who’ve never had to face more than a little boo boo from falling off the swings.
Also signaling the important and insightful post that @brownperson has made here, thank you for the input and your contribution.
Interesting to hear William Hague this morning warning Israel from falling into the trap set by Hamas by undertaking a ground assault on Gaza as revenge.
Estimates on BBC2 Newsnight last night stated that a ground assault in Gaza would lead to upwards of 20,000 Gaza civilian deaths.
This thread provides a platform for (some of) STW’s regular political posters to attempt to ‘dominate the airwaves’.
None of their comments will make an iota of difference; the huge chunks of verbiage they post do not inform the debate.
Do you mean regular political posters like yourself?
This thread won't bring peace in Palestine but global opinions concerning Palestine are slowly changing massive:
"More than half of Americans (55%) have favorable views of Israel, while 41% say they have unfavorable views of the country."
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views-of-israel/
41% of Americans having an unfavourable view of Israel is quite staggering, not least when you consider the intense pro-Israeli propaganda which they are exposed to by both the mass media and their governments, especially right-wing governments such as the Trump administration.
This has been a long process and there is little doubt that among other things social media which didn't exist 40 years ago now plays a part, as people learn truth about Palestine and the root causes.
The reference to the death of a "British" soldier, tragic as it undoubtedly is, all deaths are of course tragic, shines a light on much of what this conflict is really about. There are no British soldiers fighting in Palestine, only Israeli soldiers.
The need to emphasis that the soldier had British nationality was obviously to create a feeling that this conflict is "them" against "us". A colonial mindset where the people whose land is being taken are savages who are killing the civilised British who would never act in such a barbaric way.
This however is 2023 and this colonial mindset and the talk of the rights of "settlers" to live peacefully is losing traction. A guess silencing or dismissing the debate is one way to push back. In Labour Party Conference 2023 any meaningful debates concerning Palestine are banned, beyond expressing total support for Israel.
As is any reference to Israel being an apartheid state as recognised by Amnesty International, and even now the United Nations.
That’ll be very difficult for Israel to justify on the world stage as a proportionate response.
I disagree, it's not difficult to justify in the slightest; the challenge is will other nations take it seriously or with any validity?
And that all depends on the respective nations press, political leanings and relationships with influential nations.
it is interesting to see how the other middle East countries respond I think most see Iran as a threat, and will likely have a better clue than any of us keyboard warriors of Iranian involvement. that leaves them in potentially a weird dilemma that in supporting hamas they end up strengthening Iran, which I doubt they will want to do.
I don't think it will be much of a dilemma for many. Qatar/Iran/Syria/Hezbollah have their own arc, and that's more or less it. No state is really championing the cause of Palestinians. I wonder what ****stan is up to now? For them, obviously, Palestine is a parallel to Jammu and Kashmir.
From the United Nations:
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702
"There is today in the Palestinian territory occupied by Israel since 1967 a deeply discriminatory dual legal and political system, that privileges the 700,000 Israeli Jewish settlers living in the 300 illegal Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank,” said Michael Lynk, the UN Special Rapporteur for the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967.
"Another two million Palestinians live in Gaza, described regularly as an ‘open-air prison’, without adequate access to power, water or health, with a collapsing economy and with no ability to freely travel to the rest of Palestine or the outside world”, he added.
He ran through the internationally-understood legal definition of apartheid – the system of institutionalized racial segregation practiced in South Africa prior to its dismantling in the early 1990s.
Israel, he said, conforms to the definition as a “political regime which so intentionally and clearly prioritizes fundamental political, legal and social rights to one group over another, within the same geographic unit on the basis of one’s racial-national-ethnic identity”.
And most important of all, it is a "war crime".
"Apartheid is not, sadly, a phenomenon confined to the history books on southern Africa,” Mr. Lynk said, in his report to the Human Rights Council.
“The 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court came into law after the collapse of the old South Africa. It is a forward-looking legal instrument which prohibits apartheid as a crime against humanity today and into the future, wherever it may exist.”
As it exists today the entire Israeli government are war criminals, not to put too finer point on it.
Interesting to hear William Hague this morning warning Israel from falling into the trap set by Hamas by undertaking a ground assault on Gaza as revenge.
Estimates on BBC2 Newsnight last night stated that a ground assault in Gaza would lead to upwards of 20,000 Gaza civilian deaths.
What is very worrying is the language that all western governments are presently using. James Cleverley certainly wasn't putting any caveats on Israel's response on radio 4 just now, which I'm sure will be taken as a green light by Netanyahu as a free pass to do whatever, no matter how extreme.
They're already imposing 'collective punishment' on the Palestinian people, which is against international law, by stopping water, electricity, food and medical supplies. Would anyone put it past Netanyahu to mount a full scale ground assault into the Gaza Strip? Its certainly looking that way. They've 'called up' over 300,000 reservists on top of their already enormous military.
This is exactly what the nutters at the top of Hamas want and the civilian death toll if that happens just doesn't bear thinking about. Its a pretty depressing prospect. Just imagine being a normal person in the Gaza strip with nowhere to go and the prospect of a full scale war on the near horizon
As an aside I thought that the body count in Israel was interesting, 900 Israelis and 1500 Hamas militants, so not quite the massacre by the militants as has been portrayed (IMHO)......
I absolutely agree this is going in a really really bad direction
But is it right to just assume they are all 'nutters'? and as interesting and horrible as all the contextual history of the region is, I think there is more to it. Using past misdeeds to justify future ones isn't how we (humans) should live otherwise its never ending spiral of violence. The nutters aren't in charge, sane cold calculating people trying to gain power are in charge and using things like religion and transgression to create the nutters. The nutters are the pawns that are easily manipulated and made to do horrific stuff. Its actually much easier to come to terms with horrific actions when we think they are planned and perpetrated by nutters.
I agree with the un report quoted above. But there is more chance of me winning the lottery twice than the security council actually doing anything to bring Israel into line with its international legal obligations.
We're not immune to this here. When I was 18 (late 80s) i used to work in a pub in Manchester with a Protestant bloke from Belfast.
When he found out my Dad was from Leinster he wouldn't talk to me. Apparently he hated everyone in the Republic of Ireland because they left the lights on in WW2 and the Germans used them as navigation to bomb Belfast. He was the same age as me, i.e. born in 1971. Such ingrained bullshit is not uncommon
From the United Nations:
As if anything the UN says has any impact on any state or quasi-state actor? I mean; China is a signatory of the UN Human Rights charter, as is Iran, being a signatory of the Geneva Conventions didn't stop US service men and women from torturing prisoners in Abu Ghraib, the UN Genocide Convention didn't stop the genocide in Rwanda. Hamas backed by Iran and Qatar will, like Israel, doubtless ignore any sort of rules when it comes to this round of warfare, indeed the raping of women and shooting of civilians has already started (continued). I'm happy to blame Netanyahu when it comes to his part in the increasingly depressing breakdown of rules based order, and terrorists like Haniyeh 'exiled' in comfort in Qatar have never paid attention to them unless they play a part in lip service to his cause.
A pox on all their houses.
No winners in war, just more hate. Our focus these days should be on all saving the world, and not killing each other.
JeZ
Hopefully future generations on both sides will realise their made up deity didn't promise them rights to any land and that we're all the same, trying to live this one life as best we can and it's better to get on together than have these made up divisions of beliefs and land between us.
As an aside I thought that the body count in Israel was interesting, 900 Israelis and 1500 Hamas militants, so not quite the massacre by the militants as has been portrayed (IMHO)……
Jesus christ - 900 people not a massacre enough for you?!
Jesus christ – 900 people not a massacre enough for you?!
Maybe I didn't phrase that very well, 900 dead is apalling, but I was surprised that 1500 Hamas miltants died doing it. The Israeli defence forces would appear to have put up more resistance than it first appeared.
but I was surprised that 1500 Hamas miltants died doing it.
I expect many were either encircled by Israeli forces or just decided to stay and fight to the death, given the alternative of retreating to Gaza and waiting to be bombed
As an aside, it's slightly worrying to see the increased police presence on the streets here in a Jewish area of Manchester.
Last time there was a ground war in Gaza there was a sharp uptick in anti-semitism in the UK. I was walking along at one point when a convoy of cars bearing large Palestine flags came racing down the road at high speed... this instance was just a statement but could easily have been an actual attack.
Not nice to think I am likely to be abused or attacked simply because I share a religion with the Israeli leadership (who are not religious 🙄)
As an aside, it’s slightly worrying to see the increased police presence on the streets here in a Jewish area of Manchester.
my mate's kids go to a Jewish primary school in a fairly jewish area of north london. There is always security guards on the gates, whenever any kids are in the school - a significant difference to any other schools I'm aware of in the country. There's an extra level of concern from the community and so it doesn't surprise me that it extends to more coppers around too
Hamas terrorist shared sick photos of Israeli grandma’s body on her Facebook after butchering her…
militants or terrorists?
and yet BBC refuses to call them terrorists or even report on this story !
Woman at pro-Palestine rally in Brighton calls Hamas attacks on Israel 'beautiful and inspiring' - she should be arrested !
keep your left wing ideology’s coming - keyboard warriors !
BBC refuses to call them terrorists
I don't think the bbc label anyone terrorists - see
There's so many smaller stories to report on, but there are atrocities on both sides, Israel's blockade of medicine and water to Gaza for example could be considered a war crime (UN have said that it's illegal).
Interesting, balanced discussion on BBC from Sebastian Usher this morning, at one point comparing Russia's encroachment on Ukrainian territory with Israel's encroachment on Palestinian territory and how the west have responded to each.
This is an excellent article in the Guardian imo:
I thought this was particularly interesting - the suggestion that the attack was an attempt by Hamas to seize the initiative in a situation which was already developing and which was resulting in mounting Palestinian casualties, they could see another intifada coming
"But a major escalation in Palestine/Israel was already under way, with a dramatic rise in Palestinian casualties in the West Bank, the ethnic cleansing of several small communities, intensified settlers’ attacks, and blatant changes to the status quo at the al-Aqsa mosque/Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Many, therefore, believed a popular uprising – another intifada – was only a matter of time.
It may have been that Hamas decided that an escalation was coming and it wanted to keep the initiative in its own hands, rather than respond to a popular uprising."
Also interesting in the Guardian article is this:
"It seems that Hamas, also, is trying to force Israel into negotiations. In 2018, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar sent a note in Hebrew to Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, suggesting he take a “calculated risk” by agreeing a long-term truce. While Netanyahu agreed to some easing of pressure on Gaza, he was unwilling to accept Hamas’s long-term demands, including a large-scale prisoner swap, lifting the siege by opening the international border crossing, and establishing a port and airport in Gaza. After 16 years of siege and several catastrophic rounds of war, in which thousands of Gaza residents have been killed, Hamas may be hoping to break the deadlock."
Who knew that for years Hamas has been actively trying to force the most right-wing and hostile Israeli government in history to the negotiation table?
Bearing in mind that Israeli Military Order 101 makes peaceful protests by the Palestinians illegal, and subjects them to a court martial, what choices do the Palestinian people have?
No peaceful protests, no armed resistance, and no negotiations. Despite all three being perfectly legal under international law.
Edit: If another intifada had indeed occurred, even with without Hamas's attack, the Palestinian people would have been slaughtered They always are in every intifada.
First and foremost, those attacks were horrendous and absolutely beyond the pale. But those who are painting this as innocent Israelis against ‘human animals’, please consider:
"People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
Israel gets a free pass by the West and virtually any atrocity or violation of international law is tolerated, much like with the Saudis, a state which stones to death gay men or condemns its subjects to life imprisonment for voicing the mildest complaints, merely because it suits Western interests to overlook such things.
A key measure of how the optics change to suit the narrative can be viewed through the Ukraine war, a state which is being fully supported and bankrolled to defend itself against a much larger, well-resourced aggressor. If you support the Ukraine’s unequivocal right, including launching drone attacks into Russian territory, why would you not support Gaza’s right to defend itself? In a war of survival and attrition, would you justify war crimes if they achieved the aim of expelling Russia?
Likewise, if Russia annexed a Ukrainian city tomorrow, bombed it indiscriminately, and cut off water, food, and fuel supplies to over 2.4 million people, with her ministry of defence calling Ukrainian civilians "human animals", people would be outraged. The attacks on civilians are absolutely horrendous, but how can they be resolved by doing the exact same thing, albeit with battleships, artillery and fighter jets?
Hamas terrorist shared sick photos of Israeli grandma’s body on her Facebook after butchering her…
militants or terrorists?
and yet BBC refuses to call them terrorists or even report on this story !
Woman at pro-Palestine rally in Brighton calls Hamas attacks on Israel ‘beautiful and inspiring’ – she should be arrested !
keep your left wing ideology’s coming – keyboard warriors !
It's got nothing to do with anyone being a keyboard warrior - why should that woman be arrested? For expressing an opinion?
Why do Hamas exist? Because ultimately someone elses actions have bought them into being. What they have done is utterly abhorrent & is impossible to defend.
But Isreal aren't any angelic force for good either. The whole situation is a utter bit of a mess & my heart goes out to anyone caught up in it.
Ernie, your arguments have gone from the nonsensical to the deranged now.
Military Order 101 is a travesty, but it applies in the West Bank not Gaza because Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In Gaza, it's Hamas that suppresses peaceful protests.
If Hamas believes the best way to bring Israel back to the negitiating table is the mass rape and muder of civilians, then Gazan's best hope for a peaceful solution is that international pressure causes Hamas to step down.
If you support the Ukraine’s unequivocal right, including launching drone attacks into Russian territory, why would you not support Gaza’s right to defend itself?
I think most people would agree there's a significant difference between the tactics uses by Ukraine, which appear to be small, targetted at millitary installations (with very few civilian casualties) and controlled, with the approach used last weekend, which was for the large part a deliberate attack against unarmed civilians with no link to military targets. I'd not have a problem with Hamas trying to blow up a site used to launch rockets at them, but running round killing people at a festival is a long way from that.
I think the take away from this disastrous situation is that two wrongs (war crimes committed by both sides) do not make a right (justify such action by either side)
Full disclosure - MrsMC has an aunt who moved to Israel in the 1950s and married an Israeli, we are trying to get in touch to see if aunt and cousins are safe and well.
why should that woman be arrested? For expressing an opinion?
IANAL so don't know if it crosses the line but hate speech is very much an arrestable offence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom