Two wrongs don’t make a right. We had no mandate to get into the EU in the first place. We never voted for it. We never got the opportunity to do so. Cowardly politicians skulked behind our backs and signed us upto it without consolation, consent or even letting us know.

Oh FFS. There was a referendum back in the day that some Leavers still bleat on about… But by your logic every single trade deal the govt eventually manages to sign will need to be put to the people to vote on – I don’t see that ending well.

es, but the parliament takes their delegation form the public in trust that they will enact the will of the people following their instruction from the result of elections. MP’s are there to enact the will of the people…not ignore it or ‘interpret’ it.

I call BS. That might be vaguely true in a direct democracy, but we don’t live in one of those – we live in a representative democracy where we elect people to take complex decisions on our behalf (as ludicrous as that seems with our current crop of politicians).

They really aren’t. Churchill had something to say on this, I’ll try and find it.

So **** what if churchill said it !!

How did you vote, cheekyboy?

So, bear with me here, if an MP is elected on a remain manifesto, in a constituency that voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, is it their duty to pursue a remain outcome in parliament or is it to enact “the will of the people”?

ask again. Do you think that more people support Johnson’s Brexit policy than do not?

I’m not sure what his policy is. He’s yet to go to Brussels and negotiate a new deal…or not. I’ll reserve judgement until then. The question is that even if BJ is successful in getting the mythical cake and eat it deal, will parliament vote for it? or vote it down? That would be telling of their true intentions…and I suspect their greatest fear. I’m no BJ fan outside of celebrity and comedy even if its unintentional, but at least he’s trying to bring things to a head and move on from the current stalemate.

Not sure if the Churchill quote is his opinion or if he’s quoting the constitution or something, but as a wartime leader he was the man…thank god he was around, but as a peacetime PM and politician he was a failure, the Boris Johnson of his time, so no need to heed his opinion over anyone else’s.

Oh FFS. There was a referendum back in the day that some Leavers still bleat on about… But by your logic every single trade deal the govt eventually manages to sign will need to be put to the people to vote on – I don’t see that ending well.

The original referendum was effectively about a trade deal…that’s all, but the EU is so much more and there is a reason politicians of the day skullked around behind the electorates back to sign the treaty’s and brush it all under the carpet in a “nothing to see here” kind of way. Like I said before…who’d have thunk it that people actually value our independence, sovereignty and right to govern ourselves and to cede those rights away without consulting the people is bound to lead to ill feeling that has gone unchecked for 40 years. We dismiss democracy at our peril, and boy are we in peril now.

The original referendum was effectively about a trade deal

No it wasn’t it was about remaining in or leaving the EU. It had absolutely nothing to do with a trade deal. It was about tearing up exisiting trading arrangements. The EU made it quite clear it wouldn’t even discuss a trade deal until a leave deal was sorted or until the UK crashed out. That’s where we are now. There is zero progress on a trade deal because that won’t happen until the terms of leaving are agreed or Britain is no longer an EU member.

I meant the original referendum 40 years ago. The fact we originally voted to join the EEC, effectively a European trade agreement and nothing more, but that then turned Into the political union of the EU for which the public was never consult about joining. My argument is that if we had the arguments when going into the EU and had the elections back then, then the chances are we would have gone willingly, but the politicians thought they were being clever and decided to crack on and it is this that has caused the deep division and mistrust over the last 40 years. But then if we were consulted as we got deeper into the EU then the public would have been far better informed and the last thing governments want is an informed public….probably because most politicians are not as informed as we like to think they are.

I’m just trying to make some sense out of the current ridiculous situation. I can’t believe all this has cracked off in the last 3 years…the divisions and feelings run deeper than that…hence the OP’s original question…in my experience at the moment the two sides have dug in and hardened their opinions in the last 3 years.

He means the one in the 70s. And it wasn’t presented as “just a trade deal”… that’s just revisionism. Yes, it may well be that countries are more integrated than people expected back in the 70s, and more countries are included, but it was never just about trade before we joined, or when that referendum was held, or when any of the subsequent governments were voted in.

Anyway, that has little do with the slump we have our put ourselves in, or the expectation that many (including the government) have that things will only be getting worse.

We have a representational Government. We vote for an MP and the trust them (hmmm) to make decisions for us. That’s why we don’t have a death penalty because it’s not a good thing.

The fact we originally voted to join the EEC, effectively a European trade agreement and nothing more

It was already much much more. My work in environmental protection was based on European directives which were integrated into British law on Britain joing the EU. Very good laws they were too as they forced water companies to improve water treatment standards making drinking water safer to drink, sea water safer to swim in and surface water clean enough for things other than anaerobic bacteria to live in. You can drink the tap water pretty much anywhere in Europe these days.

Well I was a wee baby back in the time of the original referendum so don’t know how things were presented back then…but it was a close call back then and the second referendum in an attempt at getting it through…so clearly the divisions we see today existed back then and were just as powerful, so all the more reason for politicians to take the public along with them if they truly believed ever closer union was the right course of action.

Politicians have to make the case and convince the public…they can’t ride rough shot over the public…that is a dictatorship. They should have understood the divisions back then and realised the divisions were not going to go away and not kick the can down the road. Thanks to that tactic we are now seeing a move away from sensible centre liberalist politics and the rise of extremist pollitics as vast swathes of the electorate feels the politicians are not representing them and infect ignoring them. And now we have BJ and the only other alternative is Corbyn. Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

That ‘it was supposed to be a just a trade bloc’ is leaver revisionism

It was sold as cooperation between nations as much as an economic deal

We knew exactly what were getting into. Here's Heath's message to the people in 1972. Continued membership approved 67% by referendum in 1975. Did anything in Heath's letter suddenly change between those 2 dates? pic.twitter.com/YUUPOlCNaC

— Andy Davidson 🇬🇧🇪🇺🇫🇷Proud European do-gooder (@AndyDavidson14) August 27, 2019

Anyways I think it’s interesting that 3 years on, the sides have not changed their opinions

If 3 years after a GE a government had failed utterly to deliver their one pledge the voters would havr turned on those politicians that promised it by now , instead remainers, judges, civil servants, mps are all at fau!t. The brexiteers who never had the vaguest sketch of a plan to deliver what they promised are lionised as heroes by leavers.

that Churchill quote has been proved spectacularly correct.

Things were presented well enough back then for me to realise that I was a European citizen and borders mattered no more. My son enjoys those freedoms too, he’s in Berlin at present and will be able to stay as long as he likes thanks to his French passport, it’s a little sad that many of the children of people on this forum will no longer have the oportunities that I’ve enjoyed and have allowed me to prosper.

My question is this: As unscientific and poorly formed as the question might be, do you think the mood of the people has changed if you compare last summer with this summer?

Yes, people are getting rather lazy already with very few protests organised. I want to see more protests otherwise the news is getting really really boring.

Make the politicians sweat (all of them) and make them earn their living.

What is really depressing is that nobody on this thread seems to think that we will ultimately stay in .

wobbliscott – you have, I think, an odd view of representative democracy as practiced in the UK. You may be advocating a more Swiss style of democracy, but I’m not totally sure.

I believe we’ll stay in, personally i couldn’t give a flying **** about what happens south of the border but anyone who’d rather live in scotland is more than welcome to move here.

My son enjoys those freedoms too, he’s in Berlin at present and will be able to stay as long as he likes thanks to his French passport, it’s a little sad that many of the children of people on this forum will no longer have the oportunities that I’ve enjoyed and have allowed me to prosper.

Free movement has been the single biggest problem with the EU. The argument of free movement and being able to work in another country thanks to the EU is a false one. Sure it may be easier but that doesnt mean it wouldnt happen post Brexit. If you have something to offer another country you will always be able to work there, just ask the thousands of Ukranians and Russians pouring into Eastern Europe.

Ahh… the “it’ll stop them coming here, but won’t stop us going there” Leave fantasy of 2016. I thought that one had died. The rights are reciprocal, or they are lost.

Sure it may be easier but that doesnt mean it wouldnt happen post Brexit.

We have to pay £1000s in visa fees & wait for weeks or months to employ non-eu or UK staff
But the huge costs to business aside it’s also about keeping culture dynamic and open as part of the union.

Anyway as for divisions, had to stay silent as my leave voting mother ranted a load of twaddle shed heard on Ian dales show on lbc last weekend, she’s been quite ill so I had to bite my tongue, but knowing something about how the drugs keeping her alive are regulated and developed I found it very frustrating to hear.

How did you vote, cheekyboy?

I didnt !

I have no love for the EU whatsoever, however to vote for something that has no plan upfront seems rather daft to me.
I dont really care either way.

I see this threads dissolved up its own arse like a suppository…

These arguments ^^ have been done to death in the EU in/out thread.

The problem with this will of the people bull dung is that at the 2017 election you had the two main parties both saying they would do Brexit but get a great deal.

As a consequence you had Remainers who faced with no viable option for a Remain government voted for one or other of the two main parties based on any one or more of (1) whether they thought May or Corbyn would do a less bad job of delivering a Brexit deal. Imo both pretty dismal options so maybe you looked at other things… (2) their historic allegiance (3) other policies that mattered to them whether that’s insane austerity and low taxes or promising a level of funding for public services that would involve robbing fort Knox twice a week and (4) tactical voting and any one of a number of other manifesto items. Brexit as a general election decision factor in choice of party terms wasn’t irrelevant but it’s been talked up with religious fervour when it should be something of a footnote in the voting habits of the remainer parts of the population.

Coming back to the OP

is it safe to assume we can blame Brexit for all our woes?

Yes and no, I see Brexit as a symptom of several things within contemporary Britain. The vote was won because the leavers were able to co-opt other “aligned causes” and target people based on their fears and problems.

None of the issues the Leavers aligned their cause to have really been addressed, they couldn’t be as we have been busy tearing the nation apart further over Brexit for the last three years. Thus where people don’t really see their own circumstances improving despite the brave new political landscape they are getting impatient. The tabloid/Facebook campaigns narrative tells them it’s because remaining MPs, lefties and the EU are trying to stifle the “voice of the people”. The truth is that while Leave was sold on the basis that it would fix things and be easy to achieve, that simply was never true…

Your question is quite a nuanced one actually, you’re detecting a ‘mood’ in that there London but are unsure if it’s because of the London bubble or a wider national malaise? IMO/IME it’s nationwide and its worsening Leavers are getting angrier because what they want is within sight but may still be lost, remainers are anxious because “project fear” seems to be coming true…

The recession is coming.

I would say the recession is already here, its just that the way its measured is easily masked by the falling pound and increased pre-exit importing.

I’m pretty confident nothing much has changed in the leave/remain balance. In fact I reckon it’s more pro leave. In the city I work (Manc) there is the familiar remain hubris that existed before the referendum. In the towns and villages the leavers are more entrenched and vocal, and remainers exhausted and frustrated. Put those things together and it doesn’t look good for a new referendum.

On the positive side many more people are now experts in international trade policy and the mechanics of representative parliamentary democracy.

Put those things together and it doesn’t look good for a new referendum.

You’re probably right but it’s going to come down to how any referendum question is put and how the various factions campaign.

I also think if remain are going to stand a chance second time around they will need to learn to fight a bit dirtier. It’s just the nature of the game now.

I would say the recession is already here, its just that the way its measured is easily masked by the falling pound and increased pre-exit importing.

I know one of the biggest medical research charities in the country has been struggling with donations from public and business side , theyd not found it this challenging since 2008

Nah, we’re not in recession…..just. But that doesn’t stop people thinking we’re in recession and talking ourselves into it. Our economy is 80% based on services which is doing well at the moment and meaning we’re slightly less exposed to the current challenges the manufacturing sector is suffering to due increasing and more intense competition from the developing world, which is what is currently challenging the European economies, especially Germany, which are nearly 80% reliant on manufacturing and production.

But in this country we love a good bit of talking ourselves down and getting ourselves into this mindset that we’re on a continual downward spiral. It’s a narrative that the media seems to like as bad news stories obviously sell better than positive good news stories, and ultimately that narrative seems to feed into and influence the psyche of the public at large. Many studies have shown that the perception the general public have of the current state of things, not just in the UK but globally, is significantly more pessimistic than reality.

especially Germany, which are nearly 80% reliant on manufacturing and production.

Germany economy is about 70% services. Their service sector is far bigger than ours… the fact that they have kept their manufacturing industry alive as well, by exporting to everywhere, means that they are less dependent on services… but like any modern advanced country it is absolutely core to the economy.

If you have something to offer another country you will always be able to work there

Something tells me you’ve never actually tried to do this…

A country allowing in workers to do specific jobs under their own terms is totally different to having the right to work somewhere.

This is why economic migrants are treated like shit around the world, from workers in Qatar building world cup infrastructure to Indian IT workers in the UK. It’s bad. And it undercuts local workers even more because the companies bringing the migrants in or employing them are able to get away with far fewer protections and pay less than if they were here under EU rules.

Imagine post-Brexit a Polish agency bringing in plumbers as employees to fix British bathrooms. They’ll be paid in Poland, to keep prices down, so they won’t be able to move here and contribute to society, they won’t pay UK tax but they won’t contribute to Polish society either cos they’re here living in a dorm…

The situation in Qatar and uae is completely different and not representative. They’re you have a small domestic population who are filthy rich and well educated so are not going to do manual tasks so they rely on migrant workers. In the uk the immigrants doing non skilled jobs is a case of undercutting he domestic workers who need higher wages and most send their money back home to support family so not contributing to the uk economy.

But in Qatar and anywhere if you are a professional and have skills and experience that re in demand you will get work in any country no problems whatsoever. They will bend the rules if necessary to get people in.

The immigrants are treated is nothing to do with domestic policy. There will always be employers who treat their workers well and those who don’t. Indian IT contractors in the company I work for a treated very well indeed. I suspect the polish migrants who are car washing at the local petrol station are not having such a pleasant time.

Qatar treats immigrant workers like crap no matter if they are on a building site or running a bank. Not because they’re migrant but because they’re no Qatari. But they pay well so people put up with it as most people are just there for the cash and have an exit plan.

But immigration though the headline issue in the Brexit story, is a complete red herring, it’s just a convenient story and narrative to whip up people feelings and emotions. Also post Brexit we can define our own immigration policy so nothing needs to change in terms of migration into the uk. Of course we need and rely on immigrants just like all the countries in western Europe who are facing declining populations because our birth rates are too low. What has been managed badly is the rate of immigration and handed things on a plate to the likes of Farage Andy the EDL et al.

What has been managed badly is the rate of immigration and handed things on a plate to the likes of Farage Andy the EDL et al.

not the rate of immigration thats been badly managed, its both the causes- our failure to train what we need etc- see privatisation of learn direct & collapse in apprenticeship numbers, removing student nurse bursaries, utterly neglecting FE + saddling graduates with insane debts

and then the governments failure to invest in the communities that feel left behind, whilst politicians happily scapegoat the EU & immigrants rather than be honest with the public.

immigrants are treated is nothing to do with domestic policy

I have worked with people more intelligent and with more qualifications than any of us halfwits who post in this forum … who have been treated like slaves because their limited right to work was linked to a visa and an employer. Freedom of Movement of Workers is something else entirely, and if you think otherwise… well, you’re either wilfully blind, need more real world experience, or are, well… a bit thick.

Indian IT contractors in the company I work for a treated very well indeed.

Did that include going to work for another company in the country they were working in, if they wished? How many workers in that company back at HQ were working for a reduced wage in return for a chance to gain experience abroad?