After Orange who’s next ?

If they had bosch motors on their ebikes that might have helped too

Like this?

https://www.orangebikes.com/bikes/patriot-le/2024

Or this?

https://www.orangebikes.com/bikes/phase-evo-le/2024

etc.

Orange make bikes using all the major motor systems… they offer more ebike options than most.

but it seems shimano ones are avoided by anyone who does a bit of research prior to a purchase.

Shimano motors are great. And getting better with each iteration. Madison’s support top notch. Internet research is biased against them due to their prevalence. All motor systems have caused people issues (and some people are hoping for the same reliability rate as bikes without motors… that’ll never happen) including Bosch, but the Shimano motor moans happen more often as there are so many out there (and sometimes it’s just the same people complaining over and over again, banging the negative drum as they feel let down, making the reputation look much worse).

kelvin

If they had bosch motors on their ebikes that might have helped too

Like this?

https://www.orangebikes.com/bikes/patriot-le/2024

Wow – starts at 9,500 EUR. Similar spec aluminium Orbea Wild is 7,000 Euro

if they couldn’t make money during that period, when people were crying out for frames, then there’s not much hope

They quickly ran out of HT’s then couldn’t get any more frames. At one point the website had expected delivery in over 12 months. I imagine they also ran out of components too as they were offering the full suss Halifax frames as rolling chassis. If you haven’t got the parts and try not to over stock then the Covid supply issues are going to kick you harder in the arse I guess? Still got to pay all the bills even if you have nothing to sell.

Really glad to hear that, even if it’s only hearsay.

From a reliable source who stocks Orange, so hopefully.

All motor systems have caused people issues (and some people are hoping for the same reliability rate as bikes without motors… that’ll never happen) including Bosch, but the Shimano motor moans happen more often as there are so many out there (and sometimes it’s just the same people complaining over and over again, banging the negative drum as they feel let down, making the reputation look much worse)

(as a non-user of ebikes) – Isn’t the Shimano problem to do with lack of serviceability rather than initial reliability ?
(that said, I’ve no feeling for how different Shimano’s overall product is to other big suppliers)

Which Shimano motors?

Think I’ve got a Steps e8000 on my Bullit.
What are the issues?

Re. number of ebikes on the trails. Was in Finale for the last 3 and a bit months, mostly hanging around in le Manie. Pretty much any bike you saw being ridden up was an ebike. Perhaps 1 or 2 in 20 were “analogue”. However, on the shuttles it was the other way round.

Spent the summer in the alps and it was about 50:50 with regards to bikes being pedalled up.

The Orange website is now splashed :-/

I ordered a t shirt Sunday, it’s arriving tomorrow, I obviously just got under the wire. My dream of an Orange single pivot will have to wait..

Really sad. I think just as much of the challenge is company founders retiring, selling and the new owners not investing in R&D or simply giving up for better opportunities elsewhere. This co made dream bikes for me as a kid but nothing I’d touch in the last 10yrs. Compare to say Santa Cruz who were making similar style frames in the 90’s but invested heavily in R&D and moved with the times.

When did Santa Cruz get bought by the huge conglomerate and become one of their offerings? I think that probably helped with the investing in R&D part – R&D is very expensive and can lead to a lot of money being wasted as things don’t pan out…being part of a larger organisation helps with that kind of cost outlay…I don’t think Orange is part of anything bigger than itself, so R&D is a very expensive thing to support whilst trying to sell kit.

Saying that, R&D is vital to keep offering things that people want, so it isn’t really something that can be ignored.

Not sure there is much r and d on a single pivot. And there are significant tax breaks with it, so doubt that has had any impact on orange

I suspect there is more than we think (unless you work there and know about it all)…

Santa Cruz might be amazing but I had a look at a 5010 at Stif when they were 40% and couldn’t get over how ugly it was. The head tube area looked like it had been popped out of a jelly mould! I expected that type of finish on my old Whippet but not SC. Didn’t they used to be purdy?

Filing cabinet, blah, blah, but at least the latest Orange bikes look interesting. Far more detailed than they used to be with lots of lovely folds. If you haven’t seen a recent one close up you should do.

I am sure they are progressing single pivots. The point was that r and d is largely cost neutral due to the R and D tax system in the UK, so I’d be massively shocked if that was a single contributory factor for Orange’s financial struggles. In fact, the only company I can think of where it might apply would be Atherton with their new technology and methods.

Think there’s enough other comments on here to speculate what the issue is likely to be for Orange to get into this position

I’m not surprised Orange have folded. For several years I thought they were very expensive for the spec, but always dismissed it as part paying for the name and partly so many people raving about how much they loved them. But then I went on a demo day last year. I think I rode three. I hated the hardtail (clockwork?) it just felt terrible. And really wasn’t impressed by either of the full sussers. OK on a few laps on each, but I came away really surprised and disappointed.

But it’s really a shame to see them go.

Or offers an ebike with a Shimano motor.

Just my experience, but I have not had an issue with two bikes I have had with Shimano motors.  Touch wood – 3.5 years trouble free.  

suspendedanimation

In fact, the only company I can think of where it might apply would be Atherton with their new technology and methods.

I think Robot bikes may have absorbed a lot of the initial cost there, they failed before Atherton took over.

Orange havent gone anywhere yet , id be hard pushed to look at any other bikes, getting me back on the trail with various warranty claims they have been superb . Great bikes and great staff , trim down the range and a restructure they will rise back to the top .

sheepshifter

Orange havent gone anywhere yet , id be hard pushed to look at any other bikes, getting me back on the trail with various warranty claims they have been superb

What went wrong, for those of use who are interpreting your comment as “I had an Orange which broke more than once”?

Or ‘I had more than one Orange that broke’.

A bottle can be squeezed in on some Orange frames. It’s a bit Heath Robinson though and also shock specific as there isn’t a lot of room there.

I mostly use a bladder and use the bottle when it’s hot out and I don’t want a sticky back.

Can’t see me getting rid of this bike. Almost 7 years old, still hasn’t let me down and still rides well.

EDIT: Eh? I replied to the other thread and my post ended up here. Well I thought I did.

My money is on Orro going in February…

Not long before the website will be back up. 👍

Companies that took ‘outside’ cash during the covid upturn are the ones seemingly in the most trouble, those and obviously the ones that expanded to meet demand that didn’t continue.

I can see a few of the small component manufacturers fitting into that by how things look.

Its also obvious Cotic are in damage limitation mode, selling of groupsets etc at bargain prices – hopefully they get back on track, Cotic are one of the good guys for sure.

Has anyone else seen that video of an Orange (2 and whatever the other two numbers are) DH frame breaking into several pieces on landing a drop off,  when those things fail they go big time,  they practically disassemble. Hopefully someone uploads it.

Reported in cycling weekly that Scott has taken a £137M loan from their parent company to stay afloat

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/scott-receives-pound137m-loan-as-industry-overstocking-crisis-bites

Wow, you could buy Orange and CRC for that (probably).

I’ve always assumed Scott are selling a lot of bikes on the continent because the number of them that I see here doesn’t match up to what I can see they’re spending on marketing.

Wasn’t there discussions that they’d been making £20m+ profits each year….I kinda got confused after reading that.

from the article the loan is to help their liquidity. Holding large inventory, especially parts etc. and where for that inventory on paper they could not quickly or reliable be converted into cash, impact a company’s hard liquidity tests of financial health.

At least they have a sufficient liquid parent to assist.

Speaking of roadies/Campag I heard Rapha might be in trouble too. Anyone selling expensive luxury items are going to struggle in the current economic climate. Job vacancies in my line are down about 70% YoY, I know several people who were made redundant in the last 6 months and read about hundreds more, the big recruitment consultancies have been chopping hundreds of roles as there are no vacancies to chase. The US national debt is now over 30 trillion dollars, defaults on US car loans are running at 60%, banks are getting increasingly desperate, in the UK we’re still suffering the effects of QE money printing to finance the lock downs, the dollar is no longer the currency of oil trades, Middle eastern ahem  instability doesn’t help. And just feeding and clothing the family and paying the bills with a little left over for an annual holiday is a struggle for many.

and all signs are it’s going to get much worse before it gets better.

On the plus side I hear Kier Starmer’s crowd have a great track record when it comes to managing the nation’s finances, so at least there’s hope for the end of the year right?

Weren’t Rapha bought out by Walmart or something?  I was pretty sure they have some very rich owners now. I could be wrong (I often am).

@noeffsgiven – not seen the video, can you link it so we can all see it please.  I have seen the one where the front end snaps off the GT Fury at a WC race though. All bikes will fail at come point, and depending on where it will be big or small.

Scott (and the wider Scott Sports group) are massive, they are under-represented here in the UK i think relative to the size of their market share in Europe.

As for

Scott Sports has received a loan of CHF 150million (£137m, $174m) to help “improve its financial structure” and balance its high stock inventory.

Well I’ve just bought (Link(in) a Scott product at half price because it was sitting around in the UK warehouse for a year… they had three of them, so thats potentially 15 grands worth of ‘sale’ that was gathering dust… that quickly multiplies up a bit doesnt it!

@snotrag – do you have details of where they were being sold cheap? I’m very much an external cables and alu type, but have a friend who has one of these as his dream bike, if they are available cheap in small size he’d be all over it

Well I’ve just bought (Link(in) a Scott product at half price because it was sitting around in the UK warehouse for a year… they had three of them, so thats potentially 15 grands worth of ‘sale’ that was gathering dust… that quickly multiplies up a bit doesnt it!

Not really related to any manufacturer but it does point to a problem with having a ‘new’ model each year.  If you have any stock that sits there too long at some point it suddenly loses 30% of it’s value.

Personally I wouldn’t be sorry to see the back of model years.

I thought they were very expensive for the spec, but always dismissed it as part paying for the name and partly so many people raving about how much they loved them

Nothing at all about UK manufacture…?

I’d never buy something ugly and expensive that I don’t really want, just because it’s made in the UK.

I think Scott bikes are great value compared to the equivalents fron Trek, Spesh, etc. Easy to forget their ski background.

I agree model years are an issue that don’t help manufacturers, has to be a better way of organising that aspect

I’ve always assumed Scott are selling a lot of bikes on the continent because the number of them that I see here doesn’t match up to what I can see they’re spending on marketing.

I was in Switzerland a few years back. The hybrid/low end xc hardtail for riding around forest paths and bike lanes seemed to be near exclusively Scotts.

Proportion of profit from them vs high end wunderbikes is probably significant, but we only see the high end models in the UK.

Speaking of roadies/Campag I heard Rapha might be in trouble too.

A £12 million loss apparently, but ‘ an independent auditor said that they have not identified “material concerns” that could cast any “significant doubt” over Rapha’s future, at least for the next twelve months from when the financial documents were issued’. So that’s okay then…

https://road.cc/content/news/rapha-announces-loss-ps106-million-304903

So that’s okay then…

In that report you linked (thanks for that, interesting reading) The CEO was talking about making “negative profits” I’m using that the next time I’m reporting the financial position here.

Anyway, who’s next, could be anyone, who knows what they’re all hiding? Zwift have reduced staff by 15%, Spesh have cut staff by 8%, even Shimano had a terrible year.