maccruiskeen, good post.

So it’s perfectly acceptable to inconvenience an installed user base of millions by picking an arbitrary wheel size without evidence as to any real benefit?

Really, I see it as evidence of cynicism and greed – especially when the new wheel size happens to be one that offers little or no benefit over the old one.
And it’s not just a sport.

Well, it seems to me that this new wheel size is an excuse to stop any pretence at real innovation. It’s a placebo – mere marketing, the triumph of style over substance.
Real innovation would be a mainstream non cycling brand producing a quality bicycle and selling it for 25 percent less than the competition.
Or developing a tubeless system that works properly without the need to carry a pump and a tube.
Or proper, workable portable security.

Increasing wheelsize by an insignificant amount and claiming it as a genuine innovation, or as something ‘interesting’, whilst increasing the price and threatening to remove any alternative is frankly appalling.
As is any attempt to justify it.

My tuppence worth, bikes have went probably as far as they can now (only small tweaks) forks good,brakes, gears and rear shocks good. So how do the big companies sell more bikes they tell you 26 is wrong , they do not reinvent the wheel they reinvent the wheel size, 26 has been here long enough that there will be parts for long and weary, 29 or 650b one is gonna be the new betamax.

I’m baffled by the conservatism over wheel size

OK, let me explain, I think you’ve missed the point. Unhappiness over the 650b fiasco isn’t due to people thinking “26 inch is the best”. It’s simply due to people believing that the difference you get with the small change in size, is not worth the high cost of the change. If we were to choose a new wheel size from scratch then perhaps 26 inch wouldn’t be the one you’d arrive at, but that’s irrelevant. 650b doesn’t just have to be demonstrably better than 26 (which it isn’t IMO), it has to be massively better to justify replacing forks and frames, rendering old parts obsolete, etc. And I don’t think anybody believes that’s the case.

Also it’s made it embarassingly obvious that changes in bike design aren’t performance-driven… You have Santa Cruz admitting that the difference is too small to make a difference and that it’s entirely sales driven, Giant falling over themselves to tell you that their 29ers which were the Next Big Thing actually suck…

So in short- nobody objects to 650b in itself, they object to industry bullshit at customer’s expense.

Ta.

As Northwind says, a couple of industry execs have already been caught slagging off 650b before remarkably having a change of heart and offering bikes for sale.

I think it’s fair to get an idea if your views are influenced by your desire to sell the only bikes the manufacturers are now willing to supply you with.

Double post, sorry.

Here’s a picture of a kitten in some quality knitwear:

As Northwind says, a couple of industry execs have already been caught slagging off 650b before remarkably having a change of heart and offering bikes for sale.

Not quite what I said- Santa Cruz are surprisingly open about it, they admit it makes bugger all difference even now they have 650b bikes to sell, and are totally honest that the demand for 650b wheels comes almost entirely from people who’ve never ridden a 650b bike.

Which is better, I suppose, but does mean we can’t even pretend it’s performance led, or based on informed decisions. As ever, it’s not about the bike.

Nah, no worries Rusty, it’s a good point anyway

The question of why this particular change in standards is any more annoying than all the previous changes is an interesting one. The switch from 20mm QR to 15mm QR, for example, required new forks and wheels for some people too. I guess the difference is that nobody really thought it made any difference. Maybe the resistance to 650b comes from a fear that it might actually be better.

Take my situation. I have always had a soft spot for the Five. I know, but I have. I am now in a position where I could buy one. I see that I can get a brand new 2013 26″ frame in any colour I like for the same price that people were wanting for a second hand frame only a few months back. In fact the same price that some optimistic soul wanted for his frame on the Classifieds only today.

So, what’s stopping me? It isn’t really a fear over availability of parts. I can still get all the parts I need to keep my 20 year old Rockhopper going. Could it be that I’m worried the 2014 650b model might actually be better? Or at least that enough people will believe it’s better to render my 26″ version worthless.

Maybe it’s just Santa Cruzez 650 effort that’s crap? 😆

I really don’t see what all the fuss is about. So the new bike is/isn’t marginally better and you have to pay for it with money? Nothing new there. Next bike you buy might have to be 650 but so what? It’ll still be a blast to ride. But my expensive forks and wheels wont fit onto it? Don’t bother, just buy a complete bike. But what about the expensive forks and wheels? Sell them or keep them for another bike (most of us have more than one anyway – sell the roadie to make space). But i can’t afford to buy a complete bike. So you’re just getting a new frame? Yeah it’s made from x, weighs nothing and costs xxxx! What? You could buy a whole bike for that 😀

You don’t need the fanciest bike get where you want to go. In fact you don’t even need to change. I think i read somewhere that we are allowed to keep the ones we have.

Not really aware of 15mm winning a war. 20mm is still there on dh and beefier kit. Qr still out there if you really want it.

I have had 20mm forks which have more flex than my current 34s with 15mm. It fits into the category of stiff enough and so far ahead of Qr it’s a no brainer.

Once we’re all on 650b in 3-5 years time we’ll start to hear how 26″ with carbon rims is the next big thing. It’ll be faster accelerating, easier to jump, more nimble, flickable, whipable, and ‘trailstyle’ will be the new slopestyle. We’ll all need new frames again and there’ll probably be a new bolt through rear axle standard or something to make sure only new frames will do. Big wheels will be derided as for xc racing only. Either that or we’ll be getting 25″ and the promise we’ll all be able to learn infinite manuals in 20 minutes

First, there is no such thing as better with a mountain bike. The terrain is so varied as are the reasons that people ride. Bikes can be different but pretty much any sensible design will be good in some areas and not so good in others. So, moving from 26 to 650b can’t produce a better bike, just a different one. For some the advantages will outweigh the disadvantages, but for others they won’t, which is fine as long as there is a choice.

Second, the 26″ 140mm trail bike was pretty well sorted. It had been tweaked and refined over the years to the point where it was hard to see how it could be improved. We keep hearing that one of the advantages of 650b over 29ers is that you don’t have to change the geometry. So, is this just a way of selling us the same bike, but making it look like something new?

As has been mentioned earlier, how many parts could be transferred from a top end 2003 bike to a top end 2013 bike?

Absolutely meaningless comparison. Parts bought today won’t fit the majority of new frames bought next year so why talk about 10 years?

(though tbh, most parts from a 2003 bike would fit a 2013 bike)

Just out of interest, do you have a reference to this famous quote from Santa Cruz? I remember a video where some sweary guy ended by saying something like “if you can’t tell the difference, why do you care”, but that’s not the same as saying there is no difference or that he couldn’t tell the difference, more just a response to people who claimed they couldn’t. But maybe there is some other source or I’m remembering that video incorrectly.

Have a read of this:

What’s Driving the 650B Explosion? [/url]

Some choice quotes by industry people. 🙂

I’d like to see those wheel photos on the first page with the axles arranged to be all on the same plane.

I’ll take the round one 🙂

Dear lord, please please make it stop!!

650B wheel size comparison with 26 inch and 29er mountain bike tires installed
Comparison from another angle. See below for tire models.

I think on the consumer side there is a desire for some sort of better mousetrap/magic bullet – a wheel size between 26? and 29? that will combine all the positive attributes of both into one bike that will do everything. That desire is a bit naive, but people go down that road all the time.

At the industry level, you’ve got the fading popularity of 26? wheels on hardtails and short travel xc applications butting headfirst into the very real packaging issues surrounding use of 29? wheels for long travel, high abuse riding. I think within the industry, for some companies at least, there’s also a pretty heavy fear of being left behind if the ‘tweener wheel takes off, and somehow becomes the miracle wheel that everyone defaults to. You know, some sort of amplified 1992 syndrome – fear of being left with a giant pile of 1? and 1.25? threaded headsets, right around the time that 1 1/8? threadless steerers became the industry default. Okay, maybe not.