[Closed] Working hours - whats your view?

I always took the position of if I work then you pay me, didn't go to work for the fun of it

I am paid to do a job I get the job done.

The hours are not what matters.

I am senior enough I have to work extra over contact regularly but also I get an informal flexibility in return.

I am lucky I have an excellent working relationship with my masters who recognise results not hours.

You're rather chatty for someone that's just annihilated their sphincter.

Krypton do might want to edit the above as some of it is hard to understand

If you are paid by the hour then I understand working contracted hours only or if not then a modest amount of extra time only.

IMO if you are on a salary there is really on such concept as contracted hours. Those that work longer will most likely get more done and have more time to spend on career advancing activities like getting to understand other parts of the business and/or doing some self learning. As such those employees are more likely to get promoted and/or get paid more. The same applies to working at weekends. We've all heard and experienced people just doing "facetime" in the office but most people whom work longer hors do it productively.

If someone else is working harder than you and gets ahead by doing it don't expect legislation to bale you out. If its not someone at your company out-working you it will be a competitor be that a domestic one or international

If I've committed to doing something by a certain time then I'll work the hours to do it. Other than that I hate a routine long hours culture - I'm definitely in the "work to live" camp.

bearnecessities - Member
You're rather chatty for someone that's just annihilated their sphincter.

I had an argument with a manager who stated that I was obliged to go over my allotted work hours on a daily basis. I asked him to prove I was [i]contractually[/i] obliged, he couldn't. I dont work any extra hours unless i am able to do so (working day off) or minivader is getting picked up from school.

This isn't about me btw. I was just interested in the debate/opinion, whilst working actually and waiting for iTunes to reinstall....

IMO if you are on a salary there is really on such concept as contracted hours

Of course there is - I'm on a salary and am contracted to work 35 hours a week

Only mugs do extra.

I work about 7:30 to 4:30 plus extra at weekends and on some days work 7:30 to 7:30. I also worked 2 full days during the easter holidays in school and two days of marking at home. None of which I get paid extra for. Its expected. Might explain why we cant get enough staff.

99.9% of managers and staff I know work above their contracted hours, go the extra mile and so on, try to offer some flexibility but that is becoming harder with HR policies and procedures.

My job is pretty easy much of the time, and I get a lot of flexibility. For example if I'm not on a project I can stay at home and no-one chases up what I do really.

However, when the team has its back to the wall I need to help out. For example in London a load of my mates are trying to get something working urgently, and our company's success and reputation is on the line, so I'm ready to help, however late it gets. I can't leave them in the lurch, they need me.

This doesn't happen very often though.

i used to fall for this for years until i sussed that an hour before i finished my contracted hours each day i approached my line manager and asked how he'd like me to spend my final hour that day.. worked a treat i got respect and off home circa two hours earlier than i would have previously

I'm contracted to do 25.5 hrs a week and thats what i do, other employees are paid a salary and end up doing daft amounts of hrs for no extra money. I'm too long in the tooth to have the p1ss taken.
I value time over money, days off are spent walking the dog, blasting on the bike, sitting in the pub drinking ale and i occationally do some diy.

It's not always a mug's game.

In some jobs, people who work hard and are committed to the task are valued. If you're valued, you get reputation as a good worker. If you're a good worker you can progress to more senior jobs. And these are not only better paid but much more interesting and challenging.

I need an interesting and challenging job far more than I need extra money.

One of our higher managers pretty much lost the respect of all but the brown nosers when in a meeting to 'debate and discuss' non project related targets for the next year (i.e. stuff like updating corporate standards, design manuals etc) he basically said "we don't anticipate them taking any more than 10-20 hours a year, surely you can find that time?", which is impossible to do in work time as it's booked to clients by the hour. When challenged as to whether this extra work was optional the response was "yes it is, but so is promotion".

So that's 10-20 hours (yea f****** right), and a minimum of 4 to count towards your performance review, that's 40-80 hours. That's 2 working weeks of free work!

And the reason this pissed us off? The management (who want this work done) signed an opt out of overtime in return for a substantial raise. So they're expected to do that work. We'd be paid this work as overtime, if there was a booking code!

Its expected.

Should it be though? Most of us will fall into the category of doing "unpaid" extras when needed i suspect and we are lucky if we have understanding bosses who then allow flexibility with time around family commitments.

Me? Well, I work for what I'm paid for. It's retail so it goes with the job that you have to be 10 mins or so early and you leave 10 mins late, that's just the way it is. Other than that, in every job for the rest of my entire life, if I'm wanted to work extra hours, someone will have to pay me overtime for it. I would, and have a couple of times, just walked out when my time was up.....

I'm salaried and contracted to work 40 hours a week.

Most weeks I work 30-35 hours (and get paid for 40) with the full knowledge of my employer.

If I work more than 40 hours, I get paid overtime (at x1.5 hourly)

The brown nosing comes from asking, "is there anything else you want me to do ?"

The answer is pretty much always "no that's fine, you get on your way, thanks for offering though"

Forget that. What about this:
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/28/primary-school-teachers-work-60-hour-week
60 hours a week? Boo****inghoo. I'm busting 65 right now without half a year of holiday.

I've you've never had to engage and control a class of kids you have no idea how draining it is all day every day.

I would, and have a couple of times, just walked out when my time was up.

Did your colleagues mind about that?

[quote=jambalaya ]Krypton you might want to edit the above as [b]only[/b] some of it is hard to understand

FTFY

I think it starts in a pretty simple place, if you expect people to work for free, you lose the right to expect people to work when you're paying them.

The thing I find really weird, is the "it's expected" or "everyone does it" line. In my last office in the bank, there was one woman that worked unpaid overtime constantly- worked through lunches, came in early, left late. If you asked her why, she genuinely told you "everyone does it". But none of the rest of us did. I did overtime for time off in lieu (at a time that bloomin suited me btw, none of this "You may take time off when we choose nonsense- I'm working when you want me to, don't think I'll be getting my part of the bargain on your terms too). Others did it for cash. Nobody else worked for free but Bridget insisted "everyone does it"

It just seems to be a thing people do to themselves, there was no management pressure to do it in that office. I'm sure there's workplaces where everyone does do it, and in those workplaces they won't think it's unusual, they'll tell themselves everyone in other workplaces also do it. There'll be industries where it's standard, and those industries won't think anything of it either.

I get paid X money to do Y hours. I'm expected to achieve Z in those hours. I have a contract and a bit of independent free will, and when I get recognition it's because I'm pretty bloody good at my job, not because I stayed back late (while often achieving ****-all, let's be honest). Because my boss is sound, if he needs a little extra, I'll give it, and I'll get something back of equivalent value to me.

Have you changed jobs Neal, as well as location? Thought you were s/e?

Have only ever worked in a long hours culture - law - where my longest " days" in private practice were up to 40 hours. Not so bad in house - rarely more than 50 hours a week, sometimes more and often less.

No idea what my contracted hours are.

Fourbanger, the holidays are contracted for teachers. We have 4 vacancies for teachers in my department if you want a job. Loads of holiday and a gold plated pension.

I work in software and in some places working overtime is expected. On my 1st week I noticed I was arriving late and leaving before/after others, despite doing my allotted hours. Just to test the waters I stuck to my hours. Nobody has mentioned a thing yet.

Now, if they gave me a development machine less than 10yrs old I might actually get something done at work and maybe go home earlier.

http://xkcd.com/303/

If you need to work long over your contracted hours then you can't be very good at your job 😉

I almost always leave on time, most of the time I actually get to leave early because I work quickly and run out of stuff to do before my rostered hours are up, so I don't mind the odd few days staying a bit late if a load of stuff gets dumped on us last minute. I'm contracted 160 hours a month with no set pattern and it suits me fine. Never have a case of the mondays as every week is different 🙂

Do extra hours when required, get paid for them (except the first half hour for the Queen, but I always make up for that by reading the paper on the crapper before I go home), prefer to go home on time but it's just not that kind of job.

You have to pay me do extra. I often end up working 60 hour weeks due to let finishes as it is. I do acquire time by answering staff phoning me at home and checking emails but I gain that back easily.

In the past, I've had management positions where extra hours were sometimes needed, but flexibility was available in return. Those terms, and the salary I had then, made the trade off worthwhile.

Now, I'm paid less than the average wage to work 37 hours a week, and that is what they get. (Flexitime helps off set the drop in wages and fits in with child care)

Have you changed jobs Neal, as well as location? Thought you were s/e?

Yes to both.

I'm still self employed as a part time sideline. My employed working hours give me plenty of flexibility.

The terrors of performativity.

I work in a job (private practice commercial law) where working contracted hours is pretty much viewed as shirking. But I don't go overvoard. I know how many hours I'm prepared to put in for how much I get paid and I try to stick to that. It's not 9 to 5 but my pay isn't 9 to 5 either.

In an ideal world I'd take a pay cut for a better balance (and I am looking) but until that happens I'll stick to my end of the bargain with the devil...

Fourbanger, the holidays are contracted for teachers. We have 4 vacancies for teachers in my department if you want a job. Loads of holiday and a gold plated pension.

When you add in the holidays, how many hours a week is it on average? I might be interested.

@hjghg5 unless you're at a US or magic circle shop, you'll find your pay isn't all that for the hours you'll clock up.

Remember, it's a pyramid scheme....

i am paid to work 8:30 till 5 why should i work more. I am not getting training, no overtime, i am not getting appraisals, i spend my days looking at the management and thinking WTF!

If the company wants more out of me without paying me then i want something else in loo, which isn't going to happen.

Instead i ride my bike lots and have a personal life.

When you add in the holidays, how many hours a week is it on average? I might be interested.

No idea I dont know what my contract says or how many I do. Plenty of jobs though.

4 day week / 30 hour week here, relatively senior in the company. Rarely work over that.

I do get in before and leave after the MD though...

You dont even need to be qualified thanks to our man Gove. http://www.tes.co.uk/job/teacher-of-physics-reading-224677/

I work according to my contract hour but the reality is that I need to spend more hour then the contractual hour. I am not paid for that extra hour but still need to get the job done.

What can I do? Nothing. It's either I take it or I leave it. Bugger!

Hence, I am starting business ...

🙄

If I work over, I choose if it's flexi or overtime. If we work it, we get rewarded. However, we don't go home until the job is done which can mean some late nights, even early mornings.

Ourmaninthenorth - not planning to stay here permanently. But in the general scheme of things it could be worse so I'll wait for the right move rather than getting out as soon as I can.

We are currently having this discussion at work most of us don't mind doing an hour extra when needed as our job is field based . Now they want us to finish on the dot every day no ifs or buts. some times they only issue half a days work. So some days we would work over some days finish early. Now its no flexible hours and no explanation of what to do when they don't issue enough work....

Work in a long-hours culture - science. An all hours culture you might say, although sitting on your aris thinking about science is probably not everyone's idea of hard work.

Hours in the lab are a challenging issue - 9-5 is fine by me if you can produce results. I've met very few people who can do this, though - scientific breakthroughs don't come easy, you have to try as many things as you can.
Facetime is a big problem amongst the weaker students - it becomes apparent over time that someone is just going through the motions but it's hard to spot right away.

Until last year I worked in an industry where it was common practice to sign both a contract and a EU working time directive opt out when starting a new position. 60 hours a week was typical although as it was mainly commission based so the extra was kind of rewarded. I think I would have felt differently if I was putting in the extra hours and receiving the same money each month.

Last year I took a 10% pay cut for a head office based promotion and now I work monday to friday and don't work any bank holidays. Weekends now are family time and I am home in time to put my son to bed. Money spent can be earned again, time spent, cannot.

I could work my allotted hours and probably get on fine.
But I want to advance, I want to gain seniority, I want to move onto bigger things.
So I put extra hours in, take on challenges, do extra work, work outside my normal area. You can look at it like I'm brown nosing or lining someone elses pocket but ultimately I'm following a plan that I know will get me what I want.

[quote=mrmo ]If the company wants more out of me without paying me then i want something else in loo

Just take a copy of STW in to work to read when you're in there.

🙂 good point - next time they take my time for free - I want something else in the loo as well!

Let that be a rally call against the British long hours culture!

I have have worked in several large organisations and a couple of smaller ones in relatively senior roles. Additional hours were expected in all of them and I more than met the expectation. However I'm not sure I believe this is the right thing to do...
- More hours out of the same people = less jobs
- Contracts of employment become less meaningful as employers expect you to waive your rights and their responsibilities under contract but would penalise you for the same
- The flexibility gained by the employer never really comes back to the employee - the employer nearly always wins
- It's all a bit like silicon heaven in Red Dwarf. You work extra for some explicit or implicit future gain, but often the gain does not materialise for the employee
- The trend is growing and the employers perception of reasonable is getting more and more distorted in their favour

Thank God I work for myself now...

My boss at my last place was very much of the hours determine what you are doing and how good you are view and he told me as such. 12 months of killing myself before doing 70 hour weeks, 2.5 hours of expensable travel a day and other things didn't matter at all.
The fact that I was getting my work done did not matter.
Accordingly i don't work there any more and know he was the worst boss I've ever had.

My contract has hours in it but I normally do what is reasonably needed to get the job done this is also what is expected of me. in return however I expect some flexibility with my working hours.

I work as an Engineer in the construction industry.

Our contracted hours are 45/week however the contract came with the opt out of the working time directive. I, and most of us here generally do more than that, a 55/60 hour week is fairly normal.

Does it bother me? Not really.

Pay seems quite good, I enjoy the work, every day is busy and times just flies by.

I am only 26 and keen to progress so putting in the extra hours to get a good reputation and to be the best I can is fine by me.

I've had various experiences in different offices, the more commercial in nature the better actually as jobs were charged to clients and overtime was paid. The most frustrating was in a place where time at the desk was confused with productivity. After changing projects I was being fed less work, I was a contractor so took the chance to get away early some days etc. take 1/2 day fridays instead of holidays. I kept track of it and I was still doing similar hours to the regular staff. I got pulled in by my boss and his to explain why I was booking short weeks. Explained the hours and asked if I was behind with my work/projects (which I wasn't) and asked if they would rather I sat on my arse booking time doing nothing (like a number of the staff) or going home early?

People seem to get to the point where they equate hours to achievement. If your one who does contracted hours only then make sure you achieve what others do in all the extra time they spend, it's normally possible.

Just to test the waters I stuck to my hours. Nobody has mentioned a thing yet.

Adopting this kiss arse culture will only make things worse for your children when they start work.
Terms and conditions have been hard won over the years, but the current trend is just to give them away for nothing

Lots of people think they are important because their employer give them a mobile and laptop. More like they get you doing even more work on your commute when that time was once spent having a read of the paper.

Another worrying trend is people leaving the company mobile on when taking leave or even worse off sick.

Wake up and regain some dignity along with much needed leisure time

hourly rate. 40hrs minimum. usually get 45 in in 4 days and have Friday off.

I'm a sales manager and shareholder in the business, so due to commission and dividends, it could be argued I am rewarded for extra hours.

I try not to overdo it, but at the same time, my wages and livelihood are based on what I generate, rather than how many hours I do, so if extra work is needed to achieve a target, it has to be done.

I am only 26 and keen to progress so putting in the extra hours to get a good reputation and to be the best I can is fine by me.

It's definitely worth putting in the effort IME (so long as the extra time and effort will actually be rewarded and isn't seen as "normal"), I don't think I'd have managed to get my current job if I was as lazy or slow as a lot of the people I used to work with. Someone else in the company was being interviewed for the same role, they'd been there 3-4 years whilst I was just over 1 year in and I was convinced they'd go for the other guy due to this sort of thing. I think this guy might hate me now though.

Sorry to see so many people that don't like their job. I'm lucky in that I do, and I also like the people I work with and for. I'm also lucky in that my role, and the size of the company, mean that working extra hours will make a difference.

I'm not sure I would if I worked for a large company where working extra is the norm, 'because we all do it'.

Public sector so I work to my contracted 36 hours. We get time in lieu for anything over, although it has to be agreed by a manager. I live a 10 minute walk from work so have opted to do a compressed 4 day working week as I don't have a London commute anymore.
I work 4 days 8-5.30 with 30 mins for lunch but they're pushing for a culture change to encourage home and remote working so I may work from home more regularly.
It's nice having a day off in the week when the family are at work/school!

?......so due to commission and dividends, it could be argued I am rewarded for extra hours.

I try not to overdo it, but at the same time, my wages and livelihood are based on what I generate, rather than how many hours I do, so if extra work is needed to achieve a target, it has to be done.

This is pretty much where I am for the record, the difficulty is then working the extras around two young kids with school runs etc. I'm lucky to have a flexible boss and to a degree I'm in control of my own diary as long as it's aligned to the success of the work I do / team I support. I wouldn't say I work sixty hours a week and neglect my kids, but I probably work 45 hours including the odd phone call and work travel outside of core hours. I believe I've the right balance for me vs my reward package.

I'm sure if I helped close a £250k deal his morning my boss wouldn't begrudge me a slack afternoon, but also if our team was short of target he'd expect me to be balls out helping to rectify that.

It's all a balance which is both industry related and personally acceptable to you - only you can define what is acceptable and you pitch you career around that IMO.

I believe in being asked to work e extras, or being grown up enough about it to determine that myself, I don't believe in being "told" to work them. However that statement is much easier to behold when you have some career experience and much more difficult as a young employee.

Sorry to see so many people that don't like their job. I'm lucky in that I do, and I also like the people I work with and for. I'm also lucky in that my role, and the size of the company, mean that working extra hours will make a difference.

You can work your contracted hours and like your job and be good at it.

Chewkw - good luck chap, in my experience you may find you are working much harder and longer hours for smaller rewards for some time. Also, if you manage to make it work and then have to employ someone, this thread may make an interesting reference point when looking to recruit!!

We employ a small team, pay is about average, hours are flexible, we're family friendly and try hard to ensure that staff have a good work life balance. In return we expect some flexibility when needed. Seems to work well, can't see it being manageable in a large company as it's based upon mutual trust and loyalty. And, we have just appointed our first apprentice. 😀

I think the fundamental here is that if you are willing to work extra hours and put in extra effort then the rewards have to be there.

Pretty much throughout my career in various different industries I have worked more hours than i am contracted on. The reward for me is my overall compensation has probably risen on average 12% a year.

If my compensation wasn't rising accordingly with the the additional effort i was putting in then I would either not put the additional effort in or move jobs (the latter has been done on a number of occasions).

If you work your contracted hours then the best you can really expect is compensation increase at inflation.

All I have ever asked is an honest weeks wage for an honest days work.

Work at a very small company, only a couple of years old, worked my ass off the first year, got good rewards - come from being self employed / having my own company, so can see it from the other side. Me putting a massive effort in is making a very big difference to how the company is going to go over the next few years, which should see us right. I expect to get rewarded for it...I treat it like an investment. Owners look after me and the family, I feel appreciated for the efforts Ive put in.

Where as if I was at a big company then that would be very different, it all depends on who you're working for...

You can work your contracted hours and like your job and be good at it.

That's very true, but I can see the result of working longer (company does better, so I do better.)

LHS - Member

If you work your contracted hours then the best you can really expect is compensation increase at inflation.

Nonsense... But hey, believe it if you like.

You can work your contracted hours and like your job and be good at it.
That's very true, but I can see the result of working longer (company does better, so I do better.)

Which is always proportional to your position in the company - but depending on your circumstances is the value gain worth the sacrifice? Working 10 extra hours away from my kids for £20 over a week for example just wouldn't happen.

Nonsense... But hey, believe it if you like.

Not nonsense at all, someone will always be willing to put more effort in and work that much harder.

That's very true, but I can see the result of working longer (company does better, so I do better.)

The result of me working longer might be a modest increase in disposable income but at the cost of spending time with my family and doing what I want to. I chose the latter.

[quote=LHS ]Not nonsense at all, someone will always be willing to put more effort in and work that much harder.

Let's just reductio ad absurdum that...

@monsho - still going well Andy?

Results tend to matter more than the amount of hours you spend at your desk. Results are what management will notice. If they're really just tracking the hours where your bum warms your seat, they're tracking the wrong things.

Get good results quickly = no need to spend every hour in the office.

That's my take anyway.

I appreciate not everyone's job situation is the same as me, i.e. you can't knock off early in a customer service type jobs.

I work for a large american company and there has been a massive shift in attitudes to working hours over the last 5 years.

It used to be a competition to see who could be in the office first and who left last, who could send the latest email reply etc. This is now discouraged and we are urged to work hard and smart in the hours we have an leave on time. I understand there were some studies that showed this gets more out of people than longer hours. Obviously if an emergency happens then we stay and sort it out.

Slightly depends what your job is. I do a mix of office & site work - office is a default 9-5.30 day. Site is a standard 12 hr day, start and finish times anywhere on a 24 hr clock.

So far this year, we've been fairly quiet, so the office time has predominated and been pretty relaxed. However I've just been on tour - 20 hour days on site, 4 hours crap sleep in the back of a sleeper bus, repeat for a week. But it's all part of the job, and I signed up knowing that, so it's all fine (ish!). I get lieu for anything over the 12 hours which makes things a lot nicer, as I can piss off and ride my bike mid week. Cheeky trails agogo!

i also work away so dont mind cramming the hours in, i start about 10am on a monday becasue of the travel. then its 06:30 - 7pm for 3 days with friday off.