[Closed] why can't we criticise religions or religious people without getting grief

[i]why can't we criticise religions or religious people[/i]

because it's too easy and not a fair fight, what with them being dim n'all.

My thoughts are on another thread hereabouts so wont start again in here. 🙂

Criticise yes, hurl unsubstantiated abuse at, no.

Easier to burn them, imo.

Because you are striking at something they hold very dear and close to their hearts.

Worse than saying "your girlfriend is a thick ugly munter"

Something along the lines of it not being sporting to 'mock the afflicted'?

Fish in a barrel and all that.

However I understand there is a proposal before the UN to make the criticism of Islam a criminal offense.

Hmm, what would you say first if they are religious and their GF is a thick ugly munter, go for the easy one (GF) first or start of with religion and hope they're relieved when you tell them about trout-face?

unfounded faith

That's tautology - and tautological expression is frequently a sign of weak and incomplete thinking...

To put unfounded faith over science and evidence, insults me and bankrupts our society.

No, its called a difference of opinion and view.

GF first they can always find solace in religion!

but if she is an ugly munter then fine, there is evidence of this affliction. religions are based on faith and ignorance. even moderates are brainwashed to think that faith is more important then fact. this then gives credence to fundamentalists to start killing people found working on the sabbath etc.

we critise people for what political party they follow so why not this superstitious cr*p

I Could not agree with you more, for me some people fail or do not want to see the truth that emails referred to in the thread below highlight.

That story is one of many doing the rounds but the facts are, what religion presents the greatest threat to this and other countries security by the way it prosecutes its beliefs, ? granted not all followers tread that path but it is also fact that our Security Services have almost doubled in size and the main source of work for them is "that" religion.

I do not see what is wrong in criticising a movement in which elements deviously train, plan and as we have seen carry out mass murder in the name of their religion.

I for one uphold the right to criticise factions that threaten the security of my country.

i personally think that all religions are obscene and all religious people dangerous and deluded. In particular i take great offense that parents brainwash and indoctrinate their young children and i think this is tantamount to child abuse. To put unfounded faith over science and evidence, insults me and bankrupts our society.

Seems a bit strong, I think there is space for moral judgment (which to a greater or lesser extent most religions seem to advocate) as well as science.
Agree with anotherdeadhero, criticise is more than fine, hell if it will not stand up to peer review then what is it worth? But random lies through allegedly true stories? No thanks, would rather visit a church fete 🙂

Judging someone entirely based on their religion is as ignorant a prejudice as judgling someone entirely based on their colour, sex, sexual orientation, nationality etc etc.

This is especially compounded when the understanding of the beliefs of that religion is also limited and widely mis-represented.

even if the content was faked i dont see a problem in criticising religions or religious people

So it's ok to propagate lies and misinformation?

Nowt wrong wth respectful critcism, but stuff like that 'email' are just plain hateful, deceitful and deliberately inflamatory.

because it's too easy and not a fair fight, what with them being dim n'all.

Assuming that one side is more 'intelligent' than the other is also a mistake.

I saw a clip of an interview with Lord/Professor Robert Winston, in which he said he respected Richard Dawkins as a friend, despite them having different views regarding the existence of God. Clever bloke.

To each their own. Live and let live and all that. Unless someone's 'religious observance' is doing you any harm, what's the problem? And let's face it, most of it is not really. Unless you want it to be.

we do not need religions to define morals.

i personally think that all religions are obscene and all religious people dangerous and deluded. In particular i take great offense that parents brainwash and indoctrinate their young children and i think this is tantamount to child abuse.

This has more than a whiff of ignorance about it. I'd be interested to know how much you really know about [i]any[/i] religion, let alone [i]all religions and all religious people[/i].

(As opposed to what you imagine religion is, based on your experience of watching The Simpsons, perhaps.)

[i]However I understand there is a proposal before the UN to make the criticism of Islam a criminal offense. [/i]

Tell me you're joking. If not, that's exactly the kind of 'a bloke down the pub told me' crap that causes so much trouble.

'religious observance' is doing you any harm, what's the problem?

But it does, doesnt it.

i dont see religion doing the human race any good at all. in fact the complete opposite

So it's ok to propagate lies and misinformation?

Politicians seem not to mind every time an election comes around

Dawkins makes the good point (can't remember in which book, poss The Extended Phenotype) that morals are just a set of rules for a stable society (memes). So can be considered logically, deviate too much and the society is less stable and therefore less likely to survive (self propagate) in competition with other societies with a more effective moral code.

Religion doesn't come into morals - they just stole the rules and pretended they were their own.

The rules came first as without them there wouldn't have been a stable society to make up religions.

Can this forum go a day without doing religion do we think?...For a bunch of avowed disbelievers, there seems to be no end of an appetite to talk about it.

brainwashing of young children to believe superstitious cr*p before they are old enough to really think things through for themselves. this is abuse.

its also how cults work.

IHN, I am not joking and it is not crap.

[url= http://www.slate.com/id/2212662/ ]UN resolution, Hitchens[/url]

I'm as happy to criticize any religious nutter (i.e., person who beleives in god) as I am someone who forwards misleading BNP type propaganda which is what the other thread was. The snopes entry sums it up.

religions are based on faith and ignorance.

That statement is incredibly ignorant in itself.

To put unfounded faith over science and evidence, insults me and bankrupts our society.

Don't be so easily insulted. What you so uptight about? And far from 'bankrupting our society', religions add tons of cultural capital.

Darrel; sorry, but you are really coming across as ignorant here. Your views are so naive and ill-informed it's laughable. People like you are potentially as dangerous as some of the religious zealots.

Just my opinion though.

probably fairer to say 'fear and ignorance were the main tools used by religion to maintain power'

in fact the complete opposite

How's that then?

Stay out of the chat forum nickC!

(I'm staying/hiding in the bike forum.)

darrell - does have a point and has to live in a society controlled by religion-he has every right to 'Question values'.

[i]probably fairer to say 'fear and ignorance were the main tools used by religion to maintain power' [/i]

[img] [/img]

Surfer, that article is not worth the electricity it took to produce it (blimey, how times chance; a while ago, it woon't have been worth the paper it was printed on, progress, eh?). It's only Hitchens having a thought-****.

The actual resolution calls for moves to try and prevent defamation of all religions, which is a good thing. It mentions Islam as being a particular target for such unjustified media and public defamation, misinformation and inflammatory criticism. Which is actually what is happening (some of the Islamophobia displayed on this forum is a perfect example of such).

Ho hum.

Why isn't it okay to criticise a persons religion? The same reason it's not okay to tell children that Santa isn't real. It's cruel, they are simple minded and easily upset in your lack of belief in their magical friend. The difference is that children will eventually conclude that the complete implausibility of santa's existence means that he can't be real - religious people on the other hand simply dismiss any incongruity or evidence to to counter their beliefs as a matter of faith.

It's all a jolly laugh until they start to constitute majorities , influencing local and national governments, education, foreign policy etc then it's not really a laughing matter anymore is it?

Why isn't it okay to criticise a persons religion?

It is. Who told you it was not?

It's not ok to spread lies and fear about religions though.

It's like, if you go round saying that someone is/does whatever, and it's not true, it's called defamation of character, and you could be done for it, and rightly so. Would you want someone going round telling lies about you?

The same applies to religion/beliefs. This means [i]everyones'[/i] beliefs.

That's what the UN resolution is really about, not as that numpty Hitchens claims.

Some religions seem to be able to get on & believe what they want to without it affecting anyone else
Others feel the need to be constantly criticising & challenging non followers of their particular fairy tales but are over sensitive if any criticism comes back at them

The sooner we make as many institutions as possible totally secular the better it will be for all concerned

Why isn't it okay to criticise a persons religion? ... they are simple minded

I nearly fell for that.

personally I find the evangelical atheists (and there is a lot of them on this site) much more annoying and offensive than people who go to church for some comfort/community.

For example, a comment from 1 ignorant and deluded evangelical atheist

i personally think that all religions are obscene and all religious people dangerous and deluded. In particular i take great offense that parents brainwash and indoctrinate their young children and i think this is tantamount to child abuse.

i think this is tantamount to child abuse

Really? You're putting child abuse and sending a kid to Sunday school on the same level?

to some of the atheists on this site and the bollocks they spout I guess they feel its the same thing.

Odd that people who claim to reject religion turn their lack of belief into one.

Santa is not real???

Burn him! 😈

RudeBoy
It is. Who told you it was not?

Go to Saudi Arabia and start criticising Islam, see how you get on. I'm sure the Mutaween might want to have a nice chat with you. Actually, just go to Hyde park is it?, stand on your soap box and start criticising it and see what kind of a warm and receptive audience you get.

As usual you rubbish evidence that disagrees with your views and provide non for your baseless assertions.

Why would we need a new resolution if laws already exist? It is because critics of religion(s) are not making illegal statements but ones that are true and religions don't like to hear, hence the desire to create new laws.

As with Stoner my views are well known and I have posted on several related threads so I will sign off as well. Just to say I agree with Darrell.

We don't live in Saudi though, so knock yourself out...

i dont see religion doing the human race any good at all. in fact the complete opposite

i think you'll find you're talking about extremism, not religion per se.

Just to say I agree with Darrell.

what that sending kids to Sunday school is the same as child abuse?

what that sending kids to Sunday school is the same as child abuse?

I went to Sunday school & don't feel particularly abused

I think kids grow up & make their own minds up regardless of what they were told as youngsters

To answer the original question, it's mainly because they don't like being criticised.

But it's the same with any fanatical group to be honest. Post something negative about On-One or singlespeeds* on here and you'll see what I mean.

(* note, I have no beef with either)

If anyone on here is genuinely oppressed by religion, please tell us about it.

Please note that "oppression" does not include having your tea interrupted by Jehovah's Witnesses, being made to sit through some boring prayers when you were in your school assemblies, or living in a state of intense paranoia because you believe that all Muslims are suicide bombers.

Mr Agreeable
If anyone on here is genuinely oppressed by religion, please tell us about it.

What about states in the American bible belt where the teaching of evolutionary theory is outlawed? Does that not strike you as oppressive? Which about the teaching of British Israelism to loyalist congregations to justify killing catholics?

You don't have to actually be in the midst of oppression to be concerned or alarmed by it.

I went to Sunday School too, and I don't feel abused, if anything I feel lucky as I saw 1st hand what religion was really about.

Seems to me that a lot of people like darrell who talk shit and slag off religion don't really know what they don't like/disagree with about religion in the UK and are just acting out of ignorance and the lack of independent thought.

BTW I don't go to church regularly, I am just anti ignorance.

As usual you rubbish evidence that disagrees with your views and provide non for your baseless assertions.

Is that aimed at me?

If so; I disagree with Hitchens. He's a numpty, imo; the bloke even calls himself a 'radical'. why should I have to agree with the rantings of a radical? Eh? Come on, tell me!

Why would we need a new resolution if laws already exist?

They obviously aren't effective enough at combating the hateful bile and hysteria the media likes to whip up, to get ratings, or sell newspapers. This has an affect on real people's lives. So, it is deemed necessary. If you wish to oppose it, join/form a party, and use the democratic process afforded to you, to do so.

Go to Saudi Arabia and start criticising Islam, see how you get on.

I'm sure I might get more than a few funny looks in Iran, Syria, Yeman and a few other places where Islamic Fundamentalism is very powerful and influential. But I'm sure there are many, from those nations, who would be more than willing to discuss Islam with others. Not all Muslims are fanatical bearded religious nutters, after all. 🙄

Anyway, your comment is irrelevant, as I live in Britain, where I can express my views freely and openly. A fact for which I am proud to be British.

Give things time. A while ago, criticising Christianity would have seen you burned at the stake. And in Israel, criticism of Judaism may have you labeled as 'anti Semitic', by those who don't agree with you.

The usual stupid ignorance on here, I see. Oh well.

I am with Rich C on this. My old man is a big Dawkins fan and his atheist preachings do my head in, I told him he cam across as badly as a religious extreemist once. There are dangerous and deluded people in the world. Religion is irrelevant to this.

MisterGnar you do know that we are in the UK don't you? or are you going to jump around the world quoting laws from any extremist nation? as I am sure there are plenty of brutal laws put into place that have **** all to do with religion and made by atheists.

or is this a case of if you don't believe the same thing as me, then your beliefs need to be crushed/outlawed and ridiculed? if so thats sounds slightly familiar to the tactics used by extremist beliefs ........

If I was a parent of a schoolkid in the Bible Belt I would be pretty alarmed. I'm not, and getting het up about it smacks a little of forced indignation. There are some really eloquent discourses by people like Steven Jay Gould on why teaching creationism or intelligent design in preference to evolution is rubbish. Harping on about it on this forum is more or less redundant.

We must stop this insane situation were we constantly having a go at various faith's from around the world. Like old castles, dinosaur bones and what have you, it's great that these medieval ideas are still around today. It's living proof that we have moved on and that society has progressed. Stuff like education for both sexes, being able to choose your own clothes, what and how you eat stuff. It's great that we live in this free thinking civilisation with all views valid and expressable.

I went to religious school. The *amount* of times we had to pray every day. Good grief, if that wasn't enough to turn me against religion then nothing would. I can still remember the creed - we had to spout this every day - without even understanding what it meant, never mind agreeing. It was like the times tables we had to do!

I see darrel's point to a certain extent.

I respect the person, but refuse to respect the religion. If a person believes in the Christian god, Zeus, Apollo, the Hindu/Chinese/Martian gods then I really don't care. Happy Christmas/hanuka/barmitzvah, whaever. Live and let live. If, however, they then start spouting their 'stuff' at me (usually: gay=go to hell, pass go, don't collect £200 or telling me how to live my life) then I let at 'em with both barrels as they have crossed the line. It usually ends with me asking 'Well where did your god come from then?' and them storming off.

Also where politics is concerned if religious groups want to advise governments - as non-governmental organisations (note: not within govt itself) then fair enough. Just expect me to stand against you when you want to affect *my* rights.

As for the kids thing - I do agree with Darrell. How can a 2 year old be a Christian when they cannot even read the book? Let the child grow up, give all the information and let him/her choose for themselves. I have seen a serious number of gay people (usually catholics, for some reason) really screwed up by they way they were brought up.

Stuff like education for both sexes, being able to choose your own clothes, what and how you eat stuff. It's great that we live in this free thinking civilisation with all views valid and expressable.

cool, so you agree with the teachings of Islam and Christanity and aren't scared to say it. Good on you.

As for the kids thing - I do agree with Darrell.

You agree that bringing a child up within a religious home is tantamount to child abuse?

We must stop this insane situation were we constantly having a go at various faith's from around the world. Like old castles, dinosaur bones and what have you, it's great that these medieval ideas are still around today. It's living proof that we have moved on and that society has progressed. Stuff like education for both sexes, being able to choose your own clothes, what and how you eat stuff. It's great that we live in this free thinking civilisation with all views valid and expressable.

I agree with this statement, but those within religious organisations don't want this kind of progression, because the above is a sure sign to them that we are slowly but surely leaving religion behind.

You agree that bringing a child up within a religious home is tantamount to child abuse?

From the number of suicide attempts I had to deal with when in Switchboard from catholics the only answer I can give - which will get you upset is: 'sometimes, yes'.

Try and live with yourself when some silly sod in a frock is telling you that what you are is evil, vile, despicable and you will rot in hell for it. To ask you conversely: you think that is not-abuse?

As for the kids thing - I do agree with Darrell. How can a 2 year old be a Christian when they cannot even read the book? Let the child grow up, give all the information and let him/her choose for themselves.

That would mean they would have Questioning children, not obedient children.

[i]What about states in the American bible belt where the teaching of evolutionary theory is outlawed?[/i]

There are no public schools in America that have banned the teaching of the Theory of Evolution, as likewise there are no public schools in America that have creationism on the curriculum.

Oo, just as an aside question, Miketually - would you believe that a child being brought up in the Phelps family with their strange religious views - 'godhatesfags' I believe the website is called - is not abuse also?

Unfortunately there are arguments when you get to extremes or very ingrained dogma!

i personally think that all religions are obscene and all religious people dangerous and deluded. In particular i take great offense that parents brainwash and indoctrinate their young children and i think this is tantamount to child abuse. To put unfounded faith over science and evidence, insults me and bankrupts our society.

Blinkered
Ill informed
Sensationalist
Biggoted
Claptrap

Troll....

AdamW, so if it wasn't for religion, gay people would have ruddy marvellous lives then? Was Section 28 implemented by the Catholic Church?

There are no public schools in America that have banned the teaching of the Theory of Evolution, as likewise there are no public schools in America that have creationism on the curriculum.

Not creationism, but "intelligent design". Yes they have tried to shoehorn that onto the curriculum, but in many cases throughout the states it has failed...so far, which shows that democracy works to an extent, a minority cannot rule over the majority.

If, however, they then start spouting their 'stuff' at me

Absolutely nothing is beyond criticism IMHO.

But if you are going to make remarks like[i] "religions are obscene"[/i] and [i]"all religious people dangerous and deluded"[/i], then expect to get some comeback!

Just listen to your self.

From the number of suicide attempts I had to deal with when in Switchboard from catholics the only answer I can give - which will get you upset is: 'sometimes, yes'.

Try and live with yourself when some silly sod in a frock is telling you that what you are is evil, vile, despicable and you will rot in hell for it. To ask you conversely: you think that is not-abuse?

What percentage of suicides/attempts are from children raised in religious homes? What percentage from secular homes? Where's the evidence that religion leads to suicide? Britain has one of the highest suicide rates in Europe, I believe, yet it is arguably the most secular country.

Oo, just as an aside question, Miketually - would you believe that a child being brought up in the Phelps family with their strange religious views - 'godhatesfags' I believe the website is called - is not abuse also?

Unfortunately there are arguments when you get to extremes or very ingrained dogma!

But, looking at extremes and then using extremes to characterise all religion is not helpful, useful or constructive.

Yes they have tried to shoehorn that onto the curriculum, but in many cases throughout the states it has failed...so far, which shows that democracy works to an extent, a minority cannot rule over the majority.

I'm pretty sure that the majority in the States would describe themselves as religious.

Of course, being religious does not mean that you ascribe to Intelligent Design...

richc - sorry trying to hard with the irony there. because freedom to do and think what you want is certainly not what is available for a good portion of the population of the world. Just like the middle ages we seem to have a level of retarded thinking going on that means if you don't agree your dead.

I personally class evangelical atheists such as Dawkins and his sheep on here firmly in the same bracket as all other extremists. If someone gets comfort from a religion why does it cause such outrage on here?

it's funny though, I find most of the spouting is done by the evalgelist atheists on here.

I guess that will be a backlash to what has happened previously. I've been spouted at for most of my adult life because of my sexuality, just not on here.

Someone writes something innocuous on a bus and the world is up in arms, yet you go past many CoE churches and they have (really bad pun) shouts to believe in their story. I've been accosted on the street to talk about Jesus (I politely decline the invitation) and you get nutters on the street shouting that we should believe in god or burn in hell. Or people trying to push tracts into your hands with quotes in from their particular book.

Then, from the outside I see the argument forming. I've read the bible. I've read the Dhammapada. I've tried the Koran but it gave me a headache. I've also read Hitchens and Dawkins. Dawkins is not 'shrill', a 'messiah for atheists' or any other claptrap like that (usually shouted by journalists who wish to sound right-on or trendy). He puts forward an argument, not a lot more, with the statement "Prove it and I'll believe it and I'll join you.". If people *really* want to get knickers entwisted I suggest you read the serious of tracts published by Bertrand Russell, entitled "Why I Am Not A Christian". Quite deep. As I recall he believed the only positive thing that Christianity has done was to align calendars.

What I have noticed is the labelling of anyone who has the temerity to question any religion as 'New Atheists' (their caps). It is a convenient thing to do - group people you don't like under a label not of their choosing so you can then attack it. Human behaviour, eh?!

I love Harry Krishna's. ****in crack-heads. Love em 😀

Adam, I wasn't picking you out in particular btw, far from it in fact.

Anyone ever had a knock on their door and found a young couple asking if you want to let god out of your life, and read a copy of new scientist?

sorry trying to hard with the irony there. because freedom to do and think what you want is certainly not what is available for a good portion of the population of the world. Just like the middle ages we seem to have a level of retarded thinking going on that means if you don't agree your dead.

surely thats people, not religion causing this though? sure you can blame religion for all the worlds ills but that doesn't make it true, sure some of of these people use 'religion' to legitimize their actions, but thats hardly the fault of the religion itself is it? because as you say, freedom of speech shouldn't be restricted by these organisations.

Also I think you will find that a lot of the religious leaders/organizations in the world are actually trying to improve the situation for a lot of people (think Christian aid/Salvation army etc) whereas the Atheists don't seem to be doing a lot, other than blaming somebody else that is.

I've been spouted at for most of my adult life because of my sexuality, just not on here.

I'm sure that homophobia isn't a religious thing though, but one of society in general - the Bible barely mentions it, in fact. I'd guess that a CofE church would be less homophobic than the average building site, police station or school...

Anyone ever had a knock on their door and found a young couple asking if you want to let god out of your life, and read a copy of new scientist?

Ever considered that fact that some people who have let god into their life might also be readers of New Scientist?