Just to say I agree with Darrell.
what that sending kids to Sunday school is the same as child abuse?
what that sending kids to Sunday school is the same as child abuse?
I went to Sunday school & don't feel particularly abused
I think kids grow up & make their own minds up regardless of what they were told as youngsters
To answer the original question, it's mainly because they don't like being criticised.
But it's the same with any fanatical group to be honest. Post something negative about On-One or singlespeeds* on here and you'll see what I mean.
(* note, I have no beef with either)
If anyone on here is genuinely oppressed by religion, please tell us about it.
Please note that "oppression" does not include having your tea interrupted by Jehovah's Witnesses, being made to sit through some boring prayers when you were in your school assemblies, or living in a state of intense paranoia because you believe that all Muslims are suicide bombers.
Mr Agreeable
If anyone on here is genuinely oppressed by religion, please tell us about it.
What about states in the American bible belt where the teaching of evolutionary theory is outlawed? Does that not strike you as oppressive? Which about the teaching of British Israelism to loyalist congregations to justify killing catholics?
You don't have to actually be in the midst of oppression to be concerned or alarmed by it.
I went to Sunday School too, and I don't feel abused, if anything I feel lucky as I saw 1st hand what religion was really about.
Seems to me that a lot of people like darrell who talk shit and slag off religion don't really know what they don't like/disagree with about religion in the UK and are just acting out of ignorance and the lack of independent thought.
BTW I don't go to church regularly, I am just anti ignorance.
As usual you rubbish evidence that disagrees with your views and provide non for your baseless assertions.
Is that aimed at me?
If so; I disagree with Hitchens. He's a numpty, imo; the bloke even calls himself a 'radical'. why should I have to agree with the rantings of a radical? Eh? Come on, tell me!
Why would we need a new resolution if laws already exist?
They obviously aren't effective enough at combating the hateful bile and hysteria the media likes to whip up, to get ratings, or sell newspapers. This has an affect on real people's lives. So, it is deemed necessary. If you wish to oppose it, join/form a party, and use the democratic process afforded to you, to do so.
Go to Saudi Arabia and start criticising Islam, see how you get on.
I'm sure I might get more than a few funny looks in Iran, Syria, Yeman and a few other places where Islamic Fundamentalism is very powerful and influential. But I'm sure there are many, from those nations, who would be more than willing to discuss Islam with others. Not all Muslims are fanatical bearded religious nutters, after all. 🙄
Anyway, your comment is irrelevant, as I live in Britain, where I can express my views freely and openly. A fact for which I am proud to be British.
Give things time. A while ago, criticising Christianity would have seen you burned at the stake. And in Israel, criticism of Judaism may have you labeled as 'anti Semitic', by those who don't agree with you.
The usual stupid ignorance on here, I see. Oh well.
I am with Rich C on this. My old man is a big Dawkins fan and his atheist preachings do my head in, I told him he cam across as badly as a religious extreemist once. There are dangerous and deluded people in the world. Religion is irrelevant to this.
MisterGnar you do know that we are in the UK don't you? or are you going to jump around the world quoting laws from any extremist nation? as I am sure there are plenty of brutal laws put into place that have **** all to do with religion and made by atheists.
or is this a case of if you don't believe the same thing as me, then your beliefs need to be crushed/outlawed and ridiculed? if so thats sounds slightly familiar to the tactics used by extremist beliefs ........
If I was a parent of a schoolkid in the Bible Belt I would be pretty alarmed. I'm not, and getting het up about it smacks a little of forced indignation. There are some really eloquent discourses by people like Steven Jay Gould on why teaching creationism or intelligent design in preference to evolution is rubbish. Harping on about it on this forum is more or less redundant.
We must stop this insane situation were we constantly having a go at various faith's from around the world. Like old castles, dinosaur bones and what have you, it's great that these medieval ideas are still around today. It's living proof that we have moved on and that society has progressed. Stuff like education for both sexes, being able to choose your own clothes, what and how you eat stuff. It's great that we live in this free thinking civilisation with all views valid and expressable.
I went to religious school. The *amount* of times we had to pray every day. Good grief, if that wasn't enough to turn me against religion then nothing would. I can still remember the creed - we had to spout this every day - without even understanding what it meant, never mind agreeing. It was like the times tables we had to do!
I see darrel's point to a certain extent.
I respect the person, but refuse to respect the religion. If a person believes in the Christian god, Zeus, Apollo, the Hindu/Chinese/Martian gods then I really don't care. Happy Christmas/hanuka/barmitzvah, whaever. Live and let live. If, however, they then start spouting their 'stuff' at me (usually: gay=go to hell, pass go, don't collect £200 or telling me how to live my life) then I let at 'em with both barrels as they have crossed the line. It usually ends with me asking 'Well where did your god come from then?' and them storming off.
Also where politics is concerned if religious groups want to advise governments - as non-governmental organisations (note: not within govt itself) then fair enough. Just expect me to stand against you when you want to affect *my* rights.
As for the kids thing - I do agree with Darrell. How can a 2 year old be a Christian when they cannot even read the book? Let the child grow up, give all the information and let him/her choose for themselves. I have seen a serious number of gay people (usually catholics, for some reason) really screwed up by they way they were brought up.
Stuff like education for both sexes, being able to choose your own clothes, what and how you eat stuff. It's great that we live in this free thinking civilisation with all views valid and expressable.
cool, so you agree with the teachings of Islam and Christanity and aren't scared to say it. Good on you.
As for the kids thing - I do agree with Darrell.
You agree that bringing a child up within a religious home is tantamount to child abuse?
We must stop this insane situation were we constantly having a go at various faith's from around the world. Like old castles, dinosaur bones and what have you, it's great that these medieval ideas are still around today. It's living proof that we have moved on and that society has progressed. Stuff like education for both sexes, being able to choose your own clothes, what and how you eat stuff. It's great that we live in this free thinking civilisation with all views valid and expressable.
I agree with this statement, but those within religious organisations don't want this kind of progression, because the above is a sure sign to them that we are slowly but surely leaving religion behind.
You agree that bringing a child up within a religious home is tantamount to child abuse?
From the number of suicide attempts I had to deal with when in Switchboard from catholics the only answer I can give - which will get you upset is: 'sometimes, yes'.
Try and live with yourself when some silly sod in a frock is telling you that what you are is evil, vile, despicable and you will rot in hell for it. To ask you conversely: you think that is not-abuse?
As for the kids thing - I do agree with Darrell. How can a 2 year old be a Christian when they cannot even read the book? Let the child grow up, give all the information and let him/her choose for themselves.
That would mean they would have Questioning children, not obedient children.
[i]What about states in the American bible belt where the teaching of evolutionary theory is outlawed?[/i]
There are no public schools in America that have banned the teaching of the Theory of Evolution, as likewise there are no public schools in America that have creationism on the curriculum.
Oo, just as an aside question, Miketually - would you believe that a child being brought up in the Phelps family with their strange religious views - 'godhatesfags' I believe the website is called - is not abuse also?
Unfortunately there are arguments when you get to extremes or very ingrained dogma!
i personally think that all religions are obscene and all religious people dangerous and deluded. In particular i take great offense that parents brainwash and indoctrinate their young children and i think this is tantamount to child abuse. To put unfounded faith over science and evidence, insults me and bankrupts our society.
Blinkered
Ill informed
Sensationalist
Biggoted
Claptrap
Troll....
AdamW, so if it wasn't for religion, gay people would have ruddy marvellous lives then? Was Section 28 implemented by the Catholic Church?
There are no public schools in America that have banned the teaching of the Theory of Evolution, as likewise there are no public schools in America that have creationism on the curriculum.
Not creationism, but "intelligent design". Yes they have tried to shoehorn that onto the curriculum, but in many cases throughout the states it has failed...so far, which shows that democracy works to an extent, a minority cannot rule over the majority.
it's funny though, I find most of the spouting is done by the evalgelist atheists on here.If, however, they then start spouting their 'stuff' at me
Absolutely nothing is beyond criticism IMHO.
But if you are going to make remarks like[i] "religions are obscene"[/i] and [i]"all religious people dangerous and deluded"[/i], then expect to get some comeback!
Just listen to your self.
From the number of suicide attempts I had to deal with when in Switchboard from catholics the only answer I can give - which will get you upset is: 'sometimes, yes'.Try and live with yourself when some silly sod in a frock is telling you that what you are is evil, vile, despicable and you will rot in hell for it. To ask you conversely: you think that is not-abuse?
What percentage of suicides/attempts are from children raised in religious homes? What percentage from secular homes? Where's the evidence that religion leads to suicide? Britain has one of the highest suicide rates in Europe, I believe, yet it is arguably the most secular country.
Oo, just as an aside question, Miketually - would you believe that a child being brought up in the Phelps family with their strange religious views - 'godhatesfags' I believe the website is called - is not abuse also?Unfortunately there are arguments when you get to extremes or very ingrained dogma!
But, looking at extremes and then using extremes to characterise all religion is not helpful, useful or constructive.
Yes they have tried to shoehorn that onto the curriculum, but in many cases throughout the states it has failed...so far, which shows that democracy works to an extent, a minority cannot rule over the majority.
I'm pretty sure that the majority in the States would describe themselves as religious.
Of course, being religious does not mean that you ascribe to Intelligent Design...
richc - sorry trying to hard with the irony there. because freedom to do and think what you want is certainly not what is available for a good portion of the population of the world. Just like the middle ages we seem to have a level of retarded thinking going on that means if you don't agree your dead.
I personally class evangelical atheists such as Dawkins and his sheep on here firmly in the same bracket as all other extremists. If someone gets comfort from a religion why does it cause such outrage on here?
it's funny though, I find most of the spouting is done by the evalgelist atheists on here.
I guess that will be a backlash to what has happened previously. I've been spouted at for most of my adult life because of my sexuality, just not on here.
Someone writes something innocuous on a bus and the world is up in arms, yet you go past many CoE churches and they have (really bad pun) shouts to believe in their story. I've been accosted on the street to talk about Jesus (I politely decline the invitation) and you get nutters on the street shouting that we should believe in god or burn in hell. Or people trying to push tracts into your hands with quotes in from their particular book.
Then, from the outside I see the argument forming. I've read the bible. I've read the Dhammapada. I've tried the Koran but it gave me a headache. I've also read Hitchens and Dawkins. Dawkins is not 'shrill', a 'messiah for atheists' or any other claptrap like that (usually shouted by journalists who wish to sound right-on or trendy). He puts forward an argument, not a lot more, with the statement "Prove it and I'll believe it and I'll join you.". If people *really* want to get knickers entwisted I suggest you read the serious of tracts published by Bertrand Russell, entitled "Why I Am Not A Christian". Quite deep. As I recall he believed the only positive thing that Christianity has done was to align calendars.
What I have noticed is the labelling of anyone who has the temerity to question any religion as 'New Atheists' (their caps). It is a convenient thing to do - group people you don't like under a label not of their choosing so you can then attack it. Human behaviour, eh?!
I love Harry Krishna's. ****in crack-heads. Love em 😀
Adam, I wasn't picking you out in particular btw, far from it in fact.
Anyone ever had a knock on their door and found a young couple asking if you want to let god out of your life, and read a copy of new scientist?
sorry trying to hard with the irony there. because freedom to do and think what you want is certainly not what is available for a good portion of the population of the world. Just like the middle ages we seem to have a level of retarded thinking going on that means if you don't agree your dead.
surely thats people, not religion causing this though? sure you can blame religion for all the worlds ills but that doesn't make it true, sure some of of these people use 'religion' to legitimize their actions, but thats hardly the fault of the religion itself is it? because as you say, freedom of speech shouldn't be restricted by these organisations.
Also I think you will find that a lot of the religious leaders/organizations in the world are actually trying to improve the situation for a lot of people (think Christian aid/Salvation army etc) whereas the Atheists don't seem to be doing a lot, other than blaming somebody else that is.
I've been spouted at for most of my adult life because of my sexuality, just not on here.
I'm sure that homophobia isn't a religious thing though, but one of society in general - the Bible barely mentions it, in fact. I'd guess that a CofE church would be less homophobic than the average building site, police station or school...
Anyone ever had a knock on their door and found a young couple asking if you want to let god out of your life, and read a copy of new scientist?
Ever considered that fact that some people who have let god into their life might also be readers of New Scientist?
going by what I know of my friend's wife who is a vicar and her parish and her vicar friends (several of whom are gay) I'd say that was probably right.I'd guess that a CofE church would be less homophobic than the average building site, police station or school...
going by what I know of my friend's wife who is a vicar and her parish and her vicar friends (several of whom are gay) I'd say that was probably right.
But let's not let reality get in the way of shrill hysteria and crass stereotyping, hey? 😉
[i]"Religion doesn't come into morals"[/i]
I thought this was an interesting remark. Through self examination, I have found faith necessary to secure my moral foundation: "Deliver us from temptation", and all that.
My understanding is that newer religions have co-opted ideas/memes from older religions - an evolution of religion, you might say. I believe what is happening today is an evolutionary spurt in religious ideas. It remains to be seen if Atheism becomes the dominant religious species or whether there will be a new and powerful hybrid.
AdamW; I see your point, re your sexuality, and I believe it is wrong for anyone to criticise such an aspect of someone's individuality, and it's one of my main issues with many religions. Surely, we are all equal on Earth, and therefore in society?
I don't have a problem with atheism; I've considered the issue surrounding the existance of God, and I've made my own decisions that I believe are right for me, as have you, and most other people.
There are too many people living in societies which are intolerant to alternative views, and who can't express themselves freely or be who they really are themselves. This is not right.
But this is less to do with religion itself, and more to do with the manipulation of dogma, and the way religion is used as an instrument of control, by those in power.
Lots of fascinating views from all sides.
But a lot of ignorance and fear, too. Therefore, things should be discussed. But simply slagging off someone's religion, because it conflicts with your own views, or you see it as a threat when in fact it is not, is wrong.
As is often the case with STW religious 'discussions', some of the most ignorant and divisive views seem to came from those who claim to be atheists. It's just an observation.
Maybe some people aren't quite as confident and secure about their own beliefs, as they claim to be?
What percentage of suicides/attempts are from children raised in religious homes? What percentage from secular homes? Where's the evidence that religion leads to suicide? Britain has one of the highest suicide rates in Europe, I believe, yet it is arguably the most secular country.
Source please? I'd say that France is a more secular state - look at the hoohah regarding the wearing of islamic dress...
As a source on my behalf (though not looked at in detail):
[url= http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_suic.htm ]religioustolerance.org[/url]
But, looking at extremes and then using extremes to characterise all religion is not helpful, useful or constructive.
That is a poor attempt to avoid answering a question. I was not using extremes to characterise all religion. I was asking a specific question, which you attempted to broaden and hence ignore. You asked me if bringing a child up in a religious household could be deemed abuse. I answered 'sometimes'. I take it then that in extreme cases such as this you must agree with me but didn't want to actually say it. Unless you mean that bringing up a child in a religious household - regardless of the religion or extreme within - is good?
And I repeat. You can believe anything you want. Just don't ask me to either agree with you. (you meaning 'anyone' - English is crap at only having one 'you'!). And if it impinges upon human rights (pope/condom etc.) then I will make my political stand against you.
And I still stand by my point. A foetus cannot be of a certain religion. A small baby cannot be. Only when a person has reached a level of maturity to question, analyse and accept/reject views could they in all honesty be called of a certain religion.
I was asked to be a godfather for a child. I agreed with the caveat: "I will not teach him only about christianity as you know I don't believe, but about *every* religion, including none. When he's old enough to make up his own mind then fine." They agreed. I did. Hopefully the young man will grow up questioning everything until he forms his own opinions.
well, this is stw...shrill hysteria and crass stereotyping
[i]Maybe some people aren't quite as confident and secure about their own beliefs, as they claim to be?[/i]
Excellently put.
I was asked to be a godfather for a child. I agreed with the caveat: "I will not teach him only about christianity as you know I don't believe, but about *every* religion, including none. When he's old enough to make up his own mind then fine." They agreed. I did. Hopefully the young man will grow up questioning everything until he forms his own opinions.
that is the ideal for everyone surely?
sure some of of these people use 'religion' to legitimize their actions, but thats hardly the fault of the religion itself is it?
Its what it has become, it is a weapon to be used rightly or wrongly. Religion is just another form of Human nature, attack what you don't understand/can't control/different from you.
Atheism is kind of the same. It falls into the same Human trap of attacking something that is different also.
Also I think you will find that a lot of the religious leaders/organizations in the world are actually trying to improve the situation for a lot of people
I'd agree with this, but at the same time Catholicism, Africa, Aids and Condoms spring to mind.
[i]Maybe some people aren't quite as confident and secure about their own beliefs, as they claim to be?[/i]
It's an interesting thought, but it falls down on any examination. Let's say you propose something prepostorious such as women aren't equipped mentally to carry out important jobs. The fact that people laugh and pour scorn on your proposition probably wouldn't be considered a sign of lack of security about their own beliefs on the subject.
