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stevextc
If the cycle path is crappy then you slow down or just push the bike… I mean your not in a rush are you?
I think that encapsulates all that is wrong with the thinking about cycle paths. That they are seen a recreational facility rather than a transport link.
Why do some people think the cyclist's journey less important than the car driver's?
Is it because the car driver is assumed to be of a superior social status therefore the peasants should get out of the way?
The real problem is that the car has hi-jacked the infrastructure that was originally intended for meat powered transport. Take a look at the old photos any town prior to the 1960s, and you'll see children playing in the street. Streets were a public space not an exclusive zone for fast moving heavy machinery. Cars were also much smaller.
Perhaps we need to close off towns to the auto sector and institute Park and Ride from the edges, or even do what was the norm once, walk, ride, or public transport.
Or simply ban parking in town, have ultra low speed limits and sail before steam type rules of the road and let nature take its course.
If the cycle path is crappy then you slow down or just push the bike… I mean your not in a rush are you?
I'm not out for a wee pootle. I want to get to work safely and efficiently on my bike, and I don't want to get off and push because my route is badly engineered or poorly maintained.
Perhaps we need to close off towns to the auto sector and institute Park and Ride from the edges, or even do what was the norm once, walk, ride, or public transport.
Or simply ban parking in town,
The problem with that is it'll kill already dying town centres stone dead.
Or simply ban parking in town, have ultra low speed limits and sail before steam type rules of the road and let nature take its course.
We have 20mph speed restrictions in my village, however, few drivers actively observe this. I have been overtaken before by various 'grades' of motorist for daring to observe the law of the land. The speed limit is official with all correct and relevant signage. Its 20mph for a reason.
We make so many excuses for giving over our spaces to cars and marginalising sustainable transport.
Attitudes like globalti’s
What attitude? That cyclists who break the law are idiots because, as Cougar correctly writes on P1 of this thread, a few cyclists ignoring the law and riding selfishly fuels people's hatred of all of us?
The problem is that cyclists' smug holier-than-thou belief in their superiority gives them justificatioon for breaking the rules by jumping lights, riding on the pavement and taking a load of other liberties. If you want to be treated in the same way as a car driver, use the road properly.
The elephant in the room of this thread is the behaviour of many cyclists who jump lights and generally ignore the rules, which makes drivers hate them
I think you're confusing cause and effect - the drivers start hating cyclists and then those incidents provide evidence to confirm that they are right. More motorists than cyclists blow through traffic lights, but that doesn't "cause" the same hatred.
Perhaps it's easier to see this with the groups we're not part of. Some people who identify as Muslims get a bit stabby / bomby - for those starting from a position of hatred, this confirms that Muslims, generally, are a dangerous threat to our society and should be locked up and / or deported. Of course they aren't. Confirmation bias.
Some people who identify as Muslims abuse children.
Some black people deal drugs and stab people.
Some gypsies and travellers trash sports pitches and rob people.
For all of the above, those who start with the hatred have it confirmed by the anecdata. What we're talking about is symptom, not cause.
Or, to look at it from the other end: Do you think that, if all cyclists stayed off the pavements and stopped dutifully at every amber / red traffic light, then motorists would suddenly welcome us on the roads and give us proper consideration?
I think that encapsulates all that is wrong with the thinking about cycle paths. That they are seen a recreational facility rather than a transport link.
whooshhh.... it doesn't matter, if it's not safe slow down. Isn't this EXACTLY what we keep telling motorists???
Why do some people think the cyclist’s journey less important than the car driver’s?
Is it because the car driver is assumed to be of a superior social status therefore the peasants should get out of the way?
Where did you even extrapolate that from?
The point that seems to have flown over at 40,000 feet are the messages being given to motorists in the context of "why-are-cyclists-vilified-in-the-uk"
Even as a cyclist it sounds to me like you want special pleading and elevation of cycles being of some superior status over other modes of transport/leisure... and not being subject (in the eyes of some) to the same rules and messages..
(Other than taking the car for its MOT I don't think I drove into town the whole of last year .. but that's just me)
The problem is that cyclists’ smug holier-than-thou belief in their superiority gives them justificatioon for breaking the rules by jumping lights, riding on the pavement and taking a load of other liberties. If you want to be treated in the same way as a car driver, use the road properly.
Motorists jump red lights, drive on the pavement, drive under the influence, drive while uninsured/DQ'd/unlicensed, speed, make illegal U-turns....
"Use the roads properly" or "obey the law like car drivers do" is a totally bollocks argument to even try and make.
Traffic lights, bollards, big bright road signs, kerbs and speed limits all exist to try and control the frankly abysmal behaviour of most drivers because the potential for serious injury/death when they don't obey laws is very very high. And those measures frequently fail anyway.
The problem is that the roads are now so car-centric. That drives the behaviour of "other" road users. Cyclists are concerned about their safety. Put them down a poxy bit of white line painted down a pavement that gives way to every driveway and they won't use it. Paint a half metre wide "lane" through a bus turning area (Manchester, I'm looking at you) and they won't use it.
It's an infrastructure problem, not a "cyclists" problem. Build shit infra and people don't / won't use it, they'll use what is most convenient as safely as possible and sometimes that means a bit of kerb hopping, RLJing etc.
Same in cars - there's a new dual carriageway near me, 50mph limit. But they didn't put speed cameras on it so the average speed down there is high 60s. You want people to obey the law, provide them with the infrastructure that drives that behaviour.
If you want to be treated in the same way as a car driver, use the road properly.
The statistics say that the overwhelming majority of cyclists aren't causing any problems.
Why are you so concerned about a problem that doesn't exist?
Meanwhile, drivers will kill another 4 or 5 people on UK roads today. I think we should be concentrating on trying to prevent those deaths.
1. We have a grand tradition of car-culture going back to the early 1950s. Bicycles went from ‘normal’ to ‘poor man’s transport’ almost overnight.
Great Britain: cycle traffic estimates, 1949-2018
2. Crap infrastructure leads to friction
3. Poor general understanding of Highway rules and taxation means that many drivers feel that cyclists are ‘taking the piss’ by even using the roads let alone taking primary or two-abreast. Hence psychological projection of ‘entitlement’ onto a minority, ironically from those that feel most entitled (majority)
4. Tabloid-driven media exploits the ‘bad’ ‘out-group’ to vilify for the pleasure of their audience/readership.
ie (sorry)
5. London
Cougar
The problem with that is it’ll kill already dying town centres stone dead.
I'd argue it's cars that have done that.
The monopolisation of roads for cars has fragmented town centres from a composite into a series of island blocks.
Motorists jump red lights, drive on the pavement, drive under the influence, drive while uninsured/DQ’d/unlicensed, speed, make illegal U-turns….
“Use the roads properly” or “obey the law like car drivers do” is a totally bollocks argument to even try and make.
Traffic lights, bollards, big bright road signs, kerbs and speed limits all exist to try and control the frankly abysmal behaviour of most drivers because the potential for serious injury/death when they don’t obey laws is very very high. And those measures frequently fail anyway.
Other than license/insurance cyclists do all the same but just as it's not most cyclists it's not all motorists.
I’m not out for a wee pootle. I want to get to work safely and efficiently on my bike, and I don’t want to get off and push because my route is badly engineered or poorly maintained.
Doesn't sound all that different to drivers... other than pushing.
The statistics say that the overwhelming majority of cyclists aren’t causing any problems.
Doesn't sound all that different to drivers...
Why are you so concerned about a problem that doesn’t exist?
Because just as you seem to think its all/most drivers so drivers think about cyclists...
The problem is that cyclists’ smug holier-than-thou belief in their superiority gives them justificatioon for breaking the rules by jumping lights, riding on the pavement and taking a load of other liberties. If you want to be treated in the same way as a car driver, use the road properly.
I'm agreeing with this.
Bikes and cars ideally need different infrastructure. Right now, that favours cars because, guess what, there are a lot more cars than bikes.
Bikes want avoid busy junctions and high speed roads, favouring the shorter route due to lower top speed, but also want to avoid needless stopping and starting as its your personal energy, not petrol that this wastes.
However, still obeying the basic tenets of traffic law - ride on the left, give way when the designed road layout (roundabout, traffic light, major road) tells you to, behave in a vaguely predictable manner and signal your intentions. Following these mutually agreed rules is the only way to transport ourselves in a urban/suburban environment. The occasional person can break the rules and fit through the gaps at a minor inconvenience but if everyone does it chaos ensues.
If every car driver magically started cycling tomorrow and adopted the idiotic approach of the minority of cyclists then the roads will look like Mumbai, and SingleBootWorld will start saying that town centres should ban cyclists and we should all walk as its much safer and quicker anyway.
OP if you read the comments @ that Room 101 video, you’ll understand a lot more.
The problem is that the roads are now so car-centric.
isn't that because roads were/are built for cars?
Roads have been increasingly built only for cars. But the answer to your Q is both yes and no.
https://ipayroadtax.com/roads-not-built-for-cars/most-roads-were-not-built-for-use-of-cars/
The strange hierarchy of road vehicles also has something to do with it. As a couple of others have mentioned, drive an economy hatch and you will be bullied by drivers in bigger cars; I also noticed it when I drove Mrs Gti's Citroen C1. When we owned an elderly Land Rover 90 it was as if we had become invisible as drivers don't consider a square Landy as a proper car worthy of any attention. It's no coincidence that manufacturers make their cars look as aggressive as possible - a Mercedes A class racing up behind you looks like a big intimidating vehicle until it passes and you realise that it's just a vulgar hatchback. Cyclists are so low in the pecking order that drivers sometimes ignore them as of no threat and when they do see a cyclist riding assertively, taking up road space for example, they get upset at being forced to slow down.
DezB ...
Just to correct you on one of your points ...
The usual reason that I cant get past these riders who are riding 2 or 3 abreast is that I live in a very rural part of the country with quite narrow winding roads ..and when you have a club group ( please bear in mind that this is the ONLY time that I get irate ) of 20-30 riders clogging the road..even when there is a straight stretch with no approaching car in sight..I'm usually thinking can I get past all of these before the next corner without putting myself and them in danger ..now if those riders were a little more considerate by moving into single file ..and stretching things out a little so that motorists could safely pass ..there would be no problem ..but instead the attitude seems to be " we know you are there mate but you can do one " ..and they then wonder why frustration boils over from the motorist ..
Where you going in such a hurry? And, as I'm certain others have pointed out, how does them being in one long line on a "narrow, winding road" help? You could always stop and wait until they've gone and then carry on with your so important journey without getting frustrated.
Questions in the about were purely rhetorical.
You missed out the bit where I mentioned ..if they were stretched out a bit ..there wouldn't be a problem ...
.I’m usually thinking can I get past all of these before the next corner without putting myself and them in danger
now if those riders were a little more considerate by moving into single file ..and stretching things out a little
So you'd have to be on the other side of the road for longer? Or do you mean if they were single file you could squeeze past them into on coming traffic?
My little (and almost daily) experience of *some* motorists' attitude towards cyclists is on my journey home from the train station. It features a pretty stiff climb (ie, slow cyclists) up a hill on a narrow road with blind bends. I experience this road daily - sometimes as a motorist, sometimes as a cyclist. Many other cyclists also use this route home from their commute.
Some drivers will wait patiently behind a cyclist and only pass them when it is clear to do so.
Some drivers barrel along without checking their speed and push past even if there is a car coming in the other direction.
Some drivers close-pass cyclists even if the other carriageway is clear (I suppose to teach them a lesson).
Some drivers will drive up behind other cars and tailgate them if that driver (ie me) is hanging back because it isn't safe to pass.
When I cycle it, I always signal to drivers NOT to pass if I hear them coming up behind me and I can see a vehicle coming from the other direction (I get a better view from the left of the road as it is a r/h bend). Some drivers thank me for this, others get more irate as they clearly don't like being told by a cyclist.
Generally (when I am driving) I get a waved thank you (most regularly from regular cyclists rather than commuters) when they recognise I have waited / passed safely.
On balance, on this short stretch, I see more impatience shown towards cyclists than I do positive behaviour.
I flatly refuse to ride it in winter as I see it as an accident waiting to happen. Roll on the spring and lighter evenings.
You missed out the bit where I mentioned ..if they were stretched out a bit ..there wouldn’t be a problem …
I think you underestimate how tricky it can be for a group of 20-30 people to decide when it is a good idea to single up, communicate that fact and then organise it, before having to decide that it now may be better to go back to 2 abreast. Ultimately, wherever you live, it is a fair bet that you are held up more often by other motorists in the course of a year than you are by bikes. One of these things is regarded as a normal circumstance, whilst the other gives rise to aggression & villification.
In terms of the OP, do you think that these issues don't happen in other countries, the question is why, in the UK, this behaviour causes such apoplexy in car drivers.
You missed out the bit where I mentioned ..if they were stretched out a bit ..there wouldn’t be a problem
Maybe I missed it, maybe it just doesn't make any bleedin sense.
Still, you go on hating our roadie brethrin, no skin off my scrotum.
Neither Mister P ..by stretched out I mean leaving gaps between riders so that vehicles could safely pass..why the **** do they have to be bunched up anyway?
I refrained from using the words "spaced out"..just in case you thought I was implying they were taking drugs ...( clear now ? )
Have only been driving for 18 years but have only driven behind a peloton on one occasion. I remember it was a Sunday and sunny, and it was between Bredwardine Bridge and the A4358
Being (as it was) a novel situation I distinctly remember thinking to myself how I’d feel if I wasn’t myself a cyclist? I crawled along uphill at maybe 10mph and held back not to ‘bully’ them. It was about a half a mile until the junction.
10 minutes out of my day. Sun on my arm. Big deal.
Now, the tractors...they rarely pull in to let past, and in a typical year I drive behind hundreds of them. Still no ‘apoplexy’ and neither do I hate farmers. Have I missed the entitlement boat or just too laid back for my own good?
The problem with that is it’ll kill already dying town centres stone dead.
Yeah..making motorists leave their cars in out of town car parks will finish off towns completely..after all Saas-Fee and Zermatt looked dead when I was there last.
Bloke in my office - "Cyclists in all the gear are usually ok.. it's the kids..." Jeez, he's not thick (well, not [i]that[/i] thick) but it's just a moronic mentality people who drive around all the time have. (He didn't get any further than the word 'kids' before I shut him off with a tale of my kid getting moaned at by a driver for riding on a crossing on his bike, when he was 11.)
The problem with that is it’ll kill already dying town centres stone dead.
I’d argue it’s cars that have done that.
IME, it's the rise of the supermarket that's a primary contributor.
When I was a kid, I'd go into town to do the "weekly shop" with my granddad (in the car). Fruit from the greengrocer, meat from the butcher, etc. It took half a day and it was heaving.
Today there's an ASDA, Lidl, Aldi, Tesco Extra and Iceland 'warehouse' all within a mile of each other and the town centre is dead. Granted, correlation does not always imply causation, but it's surely at least contributory. Why would anyone spend half a day shopping when they can do it all in 15 minutes, unless they're a pensioner with nowt better to do and want the company?
The shops in town that aren't simply empty shells are mostly charity shops, pound shops, pizza / kebab outlets of varying degrees of botulism, mobile phone unlocking places, bargain booze, e-cigs and so forth. A huge M&S had the foresight to get the heck out of Dodge a few years ago, it's a B&M Bargains or Poundworld or something equally salubrious now. The once considered 'posh' Victorian market is mostly ex-catalogue furniture shops and assorted tat. The open market and market hall is hanging on, just about, but the writing's surely on the wall.
Now, what do you think is likely to happen if we were to pedestrianise it all? The local council daren't even charge for parking - it's free everywhere in town - for fear of what it'll do to business. They tried the disc system a few years ago, where you're limited to two hours and had to display your arrival time on a cardboard clock on your dash (still free, mind). They scrapped it after a year or two because of the hit even just having to do that had had on local trade.
Yeah..making motorists leave their cars in out of town car parks will finish off towns completely..after all Saas-Fee and Zermatt looked dead when I was there last.
Are they "dying towns" though, or are you comparing apples with oranges? (I'm unfamiliar with either of those places). If it's a desirable destination or a larger city then of course out-of-town park & ride schemes etc can work just fine. "Hey, let's go on a day trip to Accrington!" said no-one ever in the last 25 years.
I think you underestimate how tricky it can be for a group of 20-30 people to decide when it is a good idea to single up, communicate that fact and then organise it, before having to decide that it now may be better to go back to 2 abreast.
Agreed. A group of cyclists has to be treated as both a single entity (like a flock of birds) AND a disparate collection of individuals (like a single bird within the flock).
As a group, they'll generally move reasonably together but it will take significant time for instructions/advice to go up and down the group, the decision to be made and agreed (eg "pull over into that layby" or "go into single file") and then carried out.
If a single individual tried to pull over, it would probably result in a crash. But equally, single individuals could drop out the back, go off the front, turn off from the group.
Sadly most drivers have no concept of these subtleties in the same way that they will try to overtake coming up to a junction/red lights, going into a narrow section of road or at the top of a descent as the cyclist is increasing speed. And try get irate because they haven't anticipated that or understood it.
Agreed. A group of cyclists has to be treated as both a single entity (like a flock of birds) AND a disparate collection of individuals (like a single bird within the flock).
Which begs the question: What is the collective noun for a group of cyclists?
Which begs the question: What is the collective noun for a group of cyclists?
A faff.
Are they “dying towns” though, or are you comparing apples with oranges? (I’m unfamiliar with either of those places). If it’s a desirable destination or a larger city then of course out-of-town park & ride schemes etc can work just fine. “Hey, let’s go on a day trip to Accrington!” said no-one ever in the last 25 years.
It used to be early closing and market days were staggered across Burnley, Hyndburn and Blackburn... I'm old enough to remember Debenhams opening in blackburn and too old to be there when karrimor got sold off ... either way I cycled from Burnely to Blackburn for years then Padiham to Accy for 2....
To answer the OP, most people who drive cars in the UK are absolutely fine, there are a subset who are c@£$%!
I'm constantly impressed that in a city as flat and as traffic locked as Cambridge people will drive into the city centre daily to suffer for their commute. There are some temporary lights on Huntingdon road this week and today and yesterday I've rolled past a huge line of cars with 1 person in, most of whom could no doubt have cycled their journey. I'll do the same again on the way home shortly I'm sure.
IME, it’s the rise of the supermarket that’s a primary contributor.
Town planning more generally imho, although out-of-down big box stores are certainly a big part of it. (40 years ago supermarkets were on the High Street so were arguably a draw rather than a deterrent - people went into town mainly for Morrisons, but while they were in town anyway....)
But look at recent (last 40 years at least) urban housing developments - they're designed around assuming you're going everywhere by car. No shops or amenities on the estates themselves, and no local connectedness (easy pedestrian / cycle routes for instance, convenient bus routes) to get to the shops. So your starting point is that, if you're popping to the shops, whether for a pint of milk or a full week's groceries, you're going by car.
So, you're not on foot or bike or bus, you're going to the shop in the car. From that starting point, the choice of "local high street? I can park by the market if I get lucky, otherwise look for a space by the library, or how about that street behind the bank, there's a few spots there", as opposed to "ASDA?" - there's no further thinking needed, there's a gazillion parking bays outside ASDA. You're going to go to Asda.
On majorca that treat cyclists like a hgv. If the lead pair pull out onto a roundabout the cars wait till the tail end has gone through. Trouble is UK holiday makers who do not understand this concept and carry on driving as they do in England. Great for high average speeds
As for peletons of 20, - 30, BC recomds 14 I think, my road club try to keep to 12 ax this is manageable for the leader.
Most drivers give enough room when the road is clear, line of cars coming the other way and it starts to get nasty pretty quickly most will tolerate 1 min or 2 before stupidity sets in. Then they catch the car in front before the lights, roundabout etc, or they get stuck and you filter past
Town planning more generally imho
Hard to argue with much of that, really.
For towns like Accy, the rot started when its primary industry - cotton - dried up, and it's the same for many other Northern towns that were reliant on things like coal mining. East Lancashire was a pioneer here, the spinning jenny was invented like two miles from my house, but in the 70s mills in Lancashire were closing at a rate of one a week. When it all collapsed it decimated the affluence in the area and we never really properly recovered.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nationonfilm/topics/textiles/background_decline.shtml
And of course, a lack of overall wealth is going to drive people to cheaper options. Even if you wanted to spend Saturday morning trailing round the shops, I'd expect that saving 30% off your weekly food bill in Lidl will be a compelling motivator for many families.
Supermarkets have in a way responded to modern life.
Butchers bakers and so on that kept normal business hours were fine when you had a stay at home wife or mother to spend half a day shopping for you. Now that women have careers and lives of their own and blokes don't get married at 18 that's not a viable business model.
When I cycle commute in the summer, I'll always have the car at least one day a week so I can go the the supermarket on the way home.
SupermarketsModern lives have in a way responded tomodern lifesupermarkets.
https://moneyweek.com/372450/12-january-1948-britains-first-supermarket-opens
Then the housing estates and new towns were increasingly built around and for the car, with supermarkets and retail parks the norm. US-style.
Not to say that changing habits/lifestyles didn’t make it easier for supermarkets to proliferate - I’m just skeptical that it was a ‘response’ to changing lives rather than a clever business model that sought to undercut smaller stores by introducing self-service, undercutting high st prices on goods etc..
horse panic ... helicopter
We used to get occasional complaints from the horse club about aircraft upsetting the horses. One day they had a big event on and asked to borrow part of the airfield for car parking, unloading horse boxes and grazing. I asked the obvious question but apparently it would be fine.
called out to the rider
The advice I got is to talk to the horse not the rider and to talk calmly rather than call out. Horses don't like being sneaked up on.
What is the collective noun for a group of cyclists?
Traffic.
Just like other road users, they are all individual and should ride and be treated as such. That means giving way at junctions, stopping at red lights etc. It should definitely not be the case that they all play follow my leader, ignoring other traffic and road signs/signals as they do so.
If a single individual tried to pull over, it would probably result in a crash.
Not if each cyclist leaves an appropriate gap to the one in front.
The usual reason that I cant get past these riders who are riding 2 or 3 abreast is that I live in a very rural part of the country with quite narrow winding roads ..
Narrow roads, three abreast, I'm calling bullshit, its not possible with normal club run riders.
why the **** do they have to be bunched up anyway?
To make it safer for them, the vulnerable road users, so that dumb impatient ****s dont try to overtake when its not safe.
Narrow roads, three abreast, I’m calling bullshit, its not possible with normal club run riders.
Drive round East Lothian. You'll see it plenty. Especially at the weekends.