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Spain / France not much better. I'm 20mins from the border and I particularly despise riding in France. Even in cities, eg Bordeaux - the narrow streets there (mainly one way, with insufficient room to safely pass a cyclist) have signs up to urge drivers not to overtake. I'm staggered anyone would try, but try they do, repeated ad nauseum after the cyclist filters to the front of each red light.
Not just cyclists, either. Just watch people crossing a road in town - how many drivers will continue accelerating towards the pedestrian, either leaning on the horn as they pass, or slamming on the brakes. Why not just ease off the gas and avoid it?
I yell whoa! & swerve behind him. He blows his horn & gesticulates at me. Apparently that was my fault.
Mate, if you shout at anyone they will get angry and shout back. Doesn't make a difference what if any vehicles are in use.
I saw two vehicles on the side of a short suburban link road the other day, clearly one had broken down and the other one was helping. That's fine, but the second car flung his door WIDE open straight into my path (I was driving). I beeped at him, he became furious. Guessing he was stressed and tense about the car issue. But really, look before opening your door into traffic. Same behaviour as you report, but no bikes in sight.
remember the one power ranger who steamed past at Mach 1 on one wheel.
One of the slower ones then!
Attitudes like globalti's
I thought the Uk was bad till I lived in Australia for 18 months - I would never want to cycle in that country again. It was the main reason I left.
That and the racism.
This morning whilst doing the school run I witnessed:
a) the motorist next to me in a right turn lane try to jump me as I turned left on the left turn only green signal into a single lane road, with pedestrians standing on the island in the middle. Luckily she came to a halt before she hit them.
b) a cyclist carefully yet blatantly jump a red light
c) a cyclist ride along a raised cycle path only to hop off the curb onto the road because it goes in front of a bus stop where people had decided to congregate - on the cycle lane - whilst waiting for the bus.
As a BMW driving cyclist I’ve concluded that some people that build, use or abuse road infrastructure are selfish ****s who are only thinking about there own personal a to b without any care or thought for others.
Such is life.
The elephant in the room is that the cycling press focuses on all the anti-cyclist behaviour, ignoring the majority of drivers who are fine or at least disinterested, and thus constantly promote how terrible it is to ride a bike in the UK, creating a permanent victim mentality out of all proportion to the actual risk.
It's not just drivers though. Just yesterday on a bridleway I had angry walkers ignor my bell and try insisting I ride round them on the grass verge. It's rare but far from the first time this has happened.
Why so irrational? Categorisation is a strong and essential psychological coping mechanism to make sense of the world and even communicate. So it makes sense that 'cyclists' fall into a single group in their minds.
I assume that these people have had bad experiences with one or two individuals. Presuably that can be the one day, years ago they were late because of or nearly hit one, or hit by one? Now they get stressed or anxiety triggered by any and all.
And I'd imagine it's the British roads and paths being more congested that make it more prevelent here than a cultural problem?
Driving subtly but significantly raises stress levels, so people react to shit they wouldn't otherwise. At the same time we've elevated cars from being rather handy devices into desirable symbols of success. So we all drive around simultaneously stressed and anxious of others perception of us. And we've surrendered nearly every spare inch of every town to this bollocks. But ego and fomo will never allow us to reverse this insanity. <Insert Jackie Chan DAFUQ? meme here>
The elephant in the room
There's been a lot of elephants in the last few days, hasn't there. No wonder the roads are congested. It's pachydermageddon.
yesterday on a bridleway I had angry walkers
It never ceases to amaze me how much room people feel the need to take up. A family on a stroll down a towpath simply have to walk 37-abreast. Dog walkers with their pets on half-mole long leads, fishermen with their rods lying perpendicular across the paths (I'll try and bunny-hop it mate, but I'm very very bad at them). Even in ASDA one person can block off an entire aisle that's eight feet wide.
I'm alright Jack, sod the rest of you.
I think it's a weird sense of territorialism which England is particularly good at. It's not just cars, look at the obsession over property lines, fences, hedges, queueing, something for nothing etc.
The typical cyclist gets where they're going faster than by driving during rush hour. They're getting something that the car driver (who's spending money on their car) isn't getting, and this leads to resentment.
The media is equally to blame here, along with apathetic action by the police on drivers breaking the law. If you know that it's socially acceptable to speed / run red lights / use your phone / park illegally etc then it's equally acceptable to perform dangerous passes or left hooks to "teach them a lesson".
I loathe many of the people in the UK. Fat, white, angry, racist, xenophobic lazy good-for-nothing bellends.
You did well there not to mention the G-word.
It's because thick people are allowed to drive. Too ****ing stupid to realise it's all the other vehicles on the road causing them to queue, so in their dopey minds it's the fault of something small, comparatively cheap, and slower than their big lump of steel, that is "in their way".
See also all the TV ads and shite like Top Gear that instil the notion that the car is king.
[ps. argue/disagree with someone else, cos you ain't changing my tiny mind on this one!]
Head above the parapet, tin helmet donned. Some perspective from a long time non-cyclist. I'm mid fifties and only re-started cycling 5 or 6 years ago. Apart from a few brief excursions, I'd barely cycled since my teens. Until 4 years ago, I walked to work in central London 30 minutes each way for 12 years. So my primary experience of "cyclists" was London commuters. Hardly representative perhaps, but I'm afraid it did colour my judgement in a negative way.
I had several very close calls where cyclists weaving in and out of pedestrians on a pavement nearly hit me at full tilt. I lost count of the number of times I was half way across a pedestrian crossing, lights on red and a bike flew past within inches, the rider oblivious or uncaring of my presence. I witnessed several collisions of cyclists with pedestrians, thankfully none involving serious injury but that was purely due to luck. The perpetrators varied from couriers in a rush, clueless tourists following Google maps on their phone whilst riding their Boris bike one handed or commuters zoned out and listening to some banging tunes on their headphones. Red light jumping on busy junctions and crossings, wrong way on one way streets, riding on pavements etc. were the daily norm.
As a London pedestrian, I honestly felt the biggest danger to me was cyclists. Now, I'll be the first to admit that the stats probably dont support that perception but at the time that is genuinely how I felt and I wasn't alone. Clearly there were thousands of law abiding cyclists in the capital but if it's not an interest of yours, the ones you remember are those who ride like dicks.
I see a lot of comparisons with Holland etc. but it's not just the infrastructure and awareness of cyclists by motorists that's better there, it's the standard of cycling and compliance with the rules of the road by cyclists too.
Since I moved away from that London and became a cyclist myself (how did that happen), I think I have a better understanding of how vulnerable cyclists are, some of the issues they face and hopefully a more informed view. I also think there is a big difference between between cycling in a city like London and everywhere else, certainly In the shires where I now live all road users seem to be a bit more patient and considerate.
Bring on the pitchforks!
Critical mass has something to do with it eg in Cambridge City cycling is very popular and pretty well tolerated eg very rare for a car to beep etc at even the worst cycling (and there is some truly appalling riding from people whose first time it is on a bike and have no idea what they're doing). This is mainly because if they beeped / swore at every cyclist they'd be on the horn 24/7 as there are 1000s of bikes.
see a lot of comparisons with Holland etc. but it’s not just the infrastructure and awareness of cyclists by motorists that’s better there, it’s the standard of cycling and compliance with the rules of the road by cyclists too.
Have you actually cycled in Holland? Dutch cyclists aren't exactly paragons of virtue.
As a London pedestrian, I honestly felt the biggest danger to me was cyclists. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that the stats probably dont support that perception but at the time that is genuinely how I felt and I wasn’t alone.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/campaigning/views-and-briefings/pedestrians
The stats show just how wrong that perception is.
I often wonder if a strict liability law might (albeit slowly) move people's perceptions towards seeing people on bikes/on foot as vulnerable road users rather than impediments to progress.
Have you actually cycled in Holland? Dutch cyclists aren’t exactly paragons of virtue.
No, but I've driven and walked there a fair bit. I lived in Germany for 3 years on the Dutch border and spent a lot of weekends in Roermond or Venlo. Paragons of virtue? No. Better than the average London cycle commuter? In my experience, yes!
I also think there is a big difference between between cycling in a city like London and everywhere else
I don't doubt that for a second.
London roads are... special. Hell, its pavements are. Everyone is in a mad rush to be somewhere else, many cyclists and scooter riders weaving through traffic with gay abandon (and often [L] plates) are this > < far from being tomorrow's organ donors. I'd like to think I can drive a bit after doing it for 30 years, but I abhor driving in London.
Though somewhat ironically perhaps, I love that urgency when I'm a pedestrian.
I think the roads are like a Primary School playground basically.
If you are different in any way (ginger, short, fat, old worn out shoes etc) there will be an element of bullying as you don't conform.
On the road, riding a bike is about as non conformist as you can get on the highway.
As someone said, motorists hate other motorists too based on the model of car, way it is driven etc etc.
It just seems to be part of the national narrative of people taking your opportunities - if it wasn't for them your life would be better. Divide and conquer does seems to be an approach; keep everyone focused on the little things and the big things become too complex to bother with. Back to everything above two is lots!
There’s been a lot of elephants in the last few days, hasn’t there. No wonder the roads are congested. It’s pachydermageddon.
I'd noticed that, Bart's one could be replaced with the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
I was going to reply to this thread but ended up exploring why I hate Lil Pump so much instead.
Because 52% of the population are cretins.
I had several very close calls where cyclists weaving in and out of pedestrians on a pavement nearly hit me at full tilt.
So here's what I think is going on here. You weren't a cyclist, so cyclists were an 'out group' to you. People always ascribe characteristics to entire out-groups, whereas they don't to in-groups. So when you saw individual cyclists exhibiting bad behaviour, you applied the negative sentiment to all cyclists. I'd bet that when you saw a motorist behaving badly you didn't think 'motorists are dangerous' you thought 'that driver was being dangerous' because you (presumably) are a motorist yourself.
I bet you didn't even notice the thousands of well behaved cyclists in London. And they exist. A few years ago I was waiting on the cycle superhighway across Blackfriars bridge in a queue of cyclists many hundreds deep as they all waited for their green light. Took three or four cycles to get through.
Keep in mind there are plenty of considerate drivers too. A suprising number stop to let me cross the road where a cycle path requires it.
It's most likely 0.01% that are doing the rounds passing too close to lots of cyclists.
I think it’s mob mentality spurned on by click bait journalism and social media.
One of the Facebook traffic pages I use often has a thread in which the subject and all of the replies are anti-cycling. If I see one, I report it to the admin, as the more common it becomes, the more normal people think it is, that people on bikes are just bloody cyclists, lowest of the low, not a person trying to get to work or just go about their daily life. Some people reading these threads believe what they read and because many other (morons) agree with their views, they see nothing wrong with it.
On my one commute to work a week, I’ve had people shouting at me to “get a car” (I have two), someone drive at me from the other side of the road on a moped and people throwing things at me. None of them were on their own, but part of a group, and no doubt had a right laugh.
Interesting thought experiment to put to any horsey types who moan about bikes.
Ever seen a horse on its own freak out when it sees a person on a bike?
No, but I have seen a horse panic and run out of control of its rider, on a stretch of Sustrans path which horses were allowed on, barely missing two cyclists; the cause was a military helicopter a mile or so away.
I’ve also caused a horse to shy and rear, when I came up behind it on my bike and called out to the rider to make sure I didn’t startle the horse. Instead, I made the rider jump, who then jerked on the reins causing the horse to panic!
You lot must ride around some shit drivers. The vast majority near me give me enough room, wait for me to pass junctions, and are generally very pleasant. Sure you get the occasional a-hole, but your generalisations of all drivers as homicidal maniacs is as misguided as car drivers thinking all cyclists are ****.
I've cycled to work four times in the last couple of months - twice, at the same point, I've come close to being left-hooked when going straight on (by the QE on the Selly Oak bypass, if there are any Birmingham viewers), the second time was so close I had to take the left turn to avoid the car. Not my normal style but as the pedestrian crossing lights towards the hospital were red, I cycled and had a word - they were very sorry but I hadn't indicated. I didn't need to, I said, I wasn't turning...
Generally I've found car drivers ok, a few close passes but that's it. There's been some knobby cyclists though - still not sure whether to be angry about cyclists jumping red lights on the A38 bike route, but there's some really shit lack of etiquette - if I get to lights and there's cyclists in front, I wait at the back, but some go to the front - not dangerous, just rude. The dude that undertook me this evening though, that was just stupid.
You lot must ride around some shit drivers. The vast majority near me give me enough room, wait for me to pass junctions, and are generally very pleasant. Sure you get the occasional a-hole, but your generalisations of all drivers as homicidal maniacs is as misguided as car drivers thinking all cyclists are ****.
This.
And as regards the Netherlands, my (cycling) friend recently moved out of Amsterdam because she felt the city was too dangerous - on account of the number and skill level of so many cyclists.
Anecdotally, one of the most common bits of feedback I'd get from foreign tourists who had hired bikes from us was about how courteous the drivers in the Highlands and Islands are. It was a regular thing and it wasn't prompted.
As a mountain biker, car & van driver ..I would like to think that I treat cyclists on public roads with as much respect as I give to any other road user and allow enough safe space to pass .
The only time I get irate is when the " club " are out blocking the road and refuse to move into a line ( even two abreast ) to allow other vehicles to pass..
Talk about entitled pricks ..these guys have a lot to answer for...
On a personal level ..I try to avoid riding on public roads as much as I possibly can ..its way too dangerous .
It's not really that dangerous. Otherwise roadies would be an endangered species.
Re Amsterdam the biggest hazard I encountered was mopeds on the cycle paths. Terrible idea IMO.
The only time I get irate is when the ” club ” are out blocking the road and refuse to move into a line ( even two abreast ) to allow other vehicles to pass..
You see this really seems odd to me, you say they wont go two abreast which implies they are riding 3 abreast, which unless they are pro's in a race is bloody hard to fit on one lane on uk roads. It may happen but I have ridden lots of club runs and group rides over the years and havent seen it.
They could well also be blocking the road to stop entitled pricks from overtaking at unsafe places..... My experience is the roadies are usually too keen to single out which makes the group twice as long and so harder to overtake safely.
On a personal level ..I try to avoid riding on public roads as much as I possibly can ..its way too dangerous .
Those pesky others eh, your perceptions are all wrong
Go and do a bit of research
Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. —It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out.. J Swift
I know its popular on this site to ask others to do some reading on a subject, drivers (people in general) aren't interested in facts, they're interested in feelings.
That being said, us mountain bikers aren't immune from criticism, come to Hebden; sit in one of the cafes in the pedestrianised town centre and try to count the numbers of bikers in groups weaving past the kids and dogs on extending leads and old folk let loose from the nursing home for the day...
Arven...Then your perception is wrong ..
Please dont try to tell me what I have or haven't seen ..I don't remember you being a passenger in my vehicle at any time either ..to be in a position to contradict me
I live in the country ..its a regular occurrence on roads in and around where I live ..
how terrible it is to ride a bike in the UK, creating a permanent victim mentality out of all proportion to the actual risk.
Utter bollox
The only time I get irate is when the ” club ” are out blocking the road and refuse to move into a line ( even two abreast ) to allow other vehicles to pass..
There's a disconnect here because that quite well-known picture article about cyclists being 2 or 3 abreast and a lane still being available to overtake is all well and good.
But (a) there often isn't that neat layout of road (bends, gradients, hedgerows etc all restricting visibility) and (b) most cyclists are appalling at group riding.
Part of (b) is because of (a) - it's very difficult to maintain a neat close 2-up on climbs, descents, debris-strewn roads but it also means that even if they are sort of 2-up, from behind it will often look 3 or 4 abreast.
I've done 2-up chaingang type stuff in Spain where, because of the wide smooth roads, it was possible to be millimetres away from the next rider and be perfectly safe. Try that in the UK and you'd be swerving around potholes and debris, pulling out around parked cars and so on; it makes neat 2-up very difficult.
The only time I get irate is when the ” club ” are out blocking the road and refuse to move into a line ( even two abreast ) to allow other vehicles to pass..
This is the motorist mentality. It's MY road. It's for ME, IN MY CAR. I, personally would never do a club run, but why is it so terrible to have to go a bit slower on a Sunday afternoon, just because some OTHER ROAD users are out and about? And the usual reason you can't pass? Because there are CARS coming the other way.
Yeah and what about those damn cyclists riding to SCHOOL during YOUR rush hour?? Weaving all over the road, pulling wheelies not wearing helmets, or hi-vis! How dare you be young! AND GET OUTTA MY WAY.
They could well also be blocking the road to stop entitled pricks from overtaking at unsafe places….. My experience is the roadies are usually too keen to single out which makes the group twice as long and so harder to overtake safely.
+1
And if you can fit 3-up in a lane, what's the problem, it's still no wider than a car and if you have to cross the white lines then it doesn't matter if it's by a foot or completely you still can't do it into oncoming traffic. And being 2 or 3 up means the gap in oncoming traffic you need is shortened by 50%/66% (plus whatever margin you need to pull out/in).
We single out in traffic, but it's not to make life easier for anyone else, it makes it a PITA for everyone when you've not got a 50m long line of riders who've all had to slow down to merge together, rather than a van sized block moving at a consistent speed, but it reduces agro from certain drivers.
I think the psychological term is ‘othering’.
Which I guess is intensified mainly through the toxic media we have in the UK.
As with the 'B' word this is exactly how media make money. Creating divisive articles that generate hate comments is king of revenue for pay to display/pay per click.
Most drivers take “liberties” on the road too (as you noted) but they don’t get equally vilified. Some driver liberties are now so commonplace that they are not even considered wrong by the majority (e.g. speeding, going through amber lights, parking illegally, phone use etc).
Of course they do ... you are suffering a bout of confirmation bias.
I think a compounding factor is a cyclist taking liberties that the driver might like to but can’t.
So close ... having missed the above what you are missing is that many cyclists are doing EXACTLY what they are vilifying the motorist for.
If the cycle path is crappy then you slow down or just push the bike... I mean your not in a rush are you? Given the message to car drivers is to slow down, it's not a race etc. I'd say the compounding factor is one rule for us and another for them.
I get held up by cars every day of the week. Selfish, that's what car drivers are.
If we actually invested in cycling-friendly infrastructure with segregated bike lanes instead of just paying lip service to sustainable transport while we build more and more roads, it would:
a. Normalise cycling by making it a more accessible, practical means of transport.
b. Reduce conflict between cyclists and other road users
c. Reduce the number of cars on the road reducing congestion / frustration / conflict
d. Improve health and fitness
e. Reduce our impact on the environment
But hell no, let's build more bypasses and motorways etc and sell more cars and marketing-driven delusions of fluid, congestion-free traffic 🙁
If we actually invested in cycling-friendly infrastructure with segregated bike lanes instead of just paying lip service to sustainable transport while we build more and more roads
Two different issues.
Personally I'd like to see a mixture of intelligently designed on-road infrastructure and off-road routes. I think the problem with segregated infrastructure is it would actually increases the us and them problem.
E.g. there's an off-road cycleway near work that's segregated from the road by a kerb and a fence. Sounds great, except that makes it a PITA to use as you can't see traffic turning into the junctions, and getting to it from the wrong side of the road is difficult at one end unless you follow the maze of crossings across a roundabout. I get more abuse in that 300m section than anywhere else simply because there's some infrastructure that's impractical to use.
The road's more than wide enough they could have narrowed the 'car' lanes and put a full bus/cycle lane on each side and still had room for a pavement along most of it.
99% of drivers are fine, you only remember the bad ones. They can be bad in a number of ways. Ever had some doddery old fool not overtake you even though its totally clear, with a line of traffic behind them? Guess who they blame for the problem.
I'd split the outwardly anti cyclists in to two camps.
1) "I'm better than you"
people who have paid alot of money (for them) on their vehicle, and it gives them a sense of entitlement that lesser people need to get out of their way.
This could be a gammon in a new Disco, Kevin with big rims and a stripe on his Corsa, or Louise in her leased white 1 series.
They've bought into the mystique of status symbol cars, and anyone who doesn't have one must be a less successful person than themselves. Why cant these lesser people just get out of my way?
2) "I subconsciously think you're better than me [for some percieved reason] and I've got a massive chip on my shoulder"
Usually thick as mince and with an inability to empathise with anyone who isn't their socio-economic and age equal, or their immediate family.
We aren't human to them, just a non-playing-character there to make their hard life even harder, and they resent that.
The balding fat pie-stained 40 year old already halfway to the grave sees a skinny happy 50 year old spinning his way down the road in brightly coloured lycra and decides he's a wrongun.
The young white van man knows that the only acceptable male sport is football [even though short shorts and knee socks looks even more stupid than lycra when worn out of context], and doing a "real job" instead of those do-nothing office sitters is more than enough exercise for anyone. "And where do these guys get the money for these bikes that can cost over £1000 don't you know? All my money goes on cocaine and child support"
Idle musings of a bored commuter - not meant to be taken seriously.