[Closed] Why are cyclists vilified in the UK?

It's because they don't pay road tax

and no insurance. and get in the way

It's ingrained into the British folk from the olden days. People on horses/carriages, "get out of my way peasant!"

brexit.

Example near me. East Lands road has a cycle path from Manchester to Liverpool. One of the busiest roads in th3 country. Lots of cyclists still ride on road.

it's known as Schrödinger's Cyclist whereby they are simultaneously going too fast and too slow at the same time.

Lots of cyclists still ride on road.

Which they are absolutely allowed to do and may suit them better given that many cycle paths are in very poor condition; are not swept; are strewn with rubbish, glass and dog eggs; don't go where you want to go; require frequent stops as they cross roads.

Complaining about cyclists not using cycle paths generally ignores all the reasons why cyclists may not want to use the cycle path.

Oddly if you complain about cars using the local roads instead of sticking to the motorways where they belong then you get confused looks.

I think the psychological term is 'othering'.

Which I guess is intensified mainly through the toxic media we have in the UK.

It's not just the UK. Even in Holland drivers will punish you if you veer off onto the road when there's a cycle lane. It seems to be something intrinsic to the hierarchy of the road. Or maybe it's just the way global culture has developed as a whole. Or part of that separation you experience when contained within the safety of your vehicle.

attitudes are particularly unpleasant in the UK though. And they're not just confined to cycling.

attitudes are particularly unpleasant in the UK though. And they’re not just confined to cycling.

I think you have it. As a cyclist you see the shitty attitudes but the same attitudes are not just reserved for cyclists. The UK seems to have a lot of horrible, angry and entitled people in it. Feels a more horrible place than it has done for years.

Confirmation bias and a fear of "other," innit. Folk see one cyclist doing something daft and think "bloody cyclists," whereas the 20 others who are riding sensibly don't register. It's the same with motorbikes, people only ever remember the one power ranger who steamed past at Mach 1 on one wheel.

Personally I see more drivers doing stupid things on a daily basis than any other demographic, running red lights for several seconds after they've changed seems to be normal behaviour these days. But they don't get the same degree of hate as they're "one of us" rather than "one of them."

small country, too many people in built up areas all jostling for space, everyone feels more important than the rest and their life matters more.

Look at certain makes of cars that sit up other drivers backsides, usually a certain brand or 3 that do that. Pretty sure it's just a pecking order thing to most folks.

To be fair though, the infrastructure for anything other than cars from 30 years ago is pretty poor in the UK, at least some places like (I think) Holland and cities like Portland in the US seem to have the right idea. I'm maybe in a minority, but I'd more likely cycle more places like work if cars and bikes were separated. The whole "tons of metal squashing me" kinda puts me off a bit

The elephant in the room of this thread is the behaviour of many cyclists who jump lights and generally ignore the rules, which makes drivers hate them as much as they hate the onanists who cut up the traffic in their Audis, BMWs and Mercs. Seeing a cyclist taking liberties annoys me as much as seeing a driver taking liberties and now that there are no Police on patrol, annoyance happens on almost every one of my ten commuting drives a week.

See also, any other minority group.

Apparently horses find it hard to work out that cyclists are actual human beings. Motorists have a similar problem, however horses will work it out if you talk to them, drivers less so. I blame the lack of oats.

It seems to be something intrinsic to the hierarchy of the road.

I think that plays a part also. There's definitely a pecking order in some people's minds.

I noticed this a little while ago. I was driving one day and suddenly realised that no-one was giving way to me. Eg, on roads with parallel-parked cars where normally people would pull into a gap and let you through, I was being muscled off the road. People were literally driving at me. It took me a little while for the penny to drop - I was in a courtesy car and it was a shitty little Micra rather than the family saloon I usually drove.

Its the fault if the Raleigh Chopper. It turned the idea of 'bikes' into 'toys' that children grow out of and that's why there was a big slump in transportational cycling here compared to other countries.

Even with a revival in cycling in the UK we're still very faddy about it and for the last 20 - 30 years have been using any kind of bike other than 'a bike' for cycling - mountain bikes, fixed gear track bikes, cross bikes - just not 'bikes'. Riding faux sports bikes dressed like faux sports people rather than riding a bike to work in our clothes.

So UK motorists have had a generation to get used to there being no cyclists on the road and now they're are cyclists they're dressed like their part of another tribe.

The elephant in the room of this thread is the behaviour of many cyclists who jump lights and generally ignore the rules, which makes drivers hate them as much as they hate the onanists who cut up the traffic in their Audis, BMWs and Mercs. Seeing a cyclist taking liberties annoys me as much as seeing a driver taking liberties

Except that cyclists 'taking liberties' - you know what liberty is right? - mostly don't endanger anyone except themselves. It's more about frustrated people who've bought into a marketing dream that cars are freedom resenting anyone who's actually capable of forward movement and dragging out feeble rationalisations like yours to justify their attitudes 🙂

I'd be angry if I had to drive rather than ride. It's time consuming, boring and expensive. Now imagine someone on a bike getting around for a lot less cost and probably getting to work in the same time. I'd be angry at them, and at my own laziness probably.

Because, as with the EU, there's been decades of soft tap-tap-tapping of deliberately hostile articles. Road tax (and the associated insinuation that "they" are getting something for nothing), flouting regulations (again, "they" are getting away with it).

Simultaneously garishly clad in fluoro lycra while also wearing all black and coming out of nowhere; zooming past you in 20 zones while holding up all the traffic; jumping red lights while riding on the pavement.

It's been the staple opinion piece of papers for decades. If there was a referendum now on whether cycling should be banned, it'd be 52:48 in favour.

I reckon it's jealously. Seriously.

Because some people are angry, self entitled ****s. You, on your bike, are making things harder than they think is fair. They have to wait behind you because in their mind you’re going too slow. You should pay tax and probably be chipped and on a register or something.

Dickheads going to dickhead basically.

I think that plays a part also. There’s definitely a pecking order in some people’s minds.

I noticed this a little while ago. I was driving one day and suddenly realised that no-one was giving way to me. Eg, on roads with parallel-parked cars where normally people would pull into a gap and let you through, I was being muscled off the road. People were literally driving at me. It took me a little while for the penny to drop – I was in a courtesy car and it was a shitty little Micra rather than the family saloon I usually drove.

Mrs flicker used to get this a lot in her fiesta, changed her car for a CRV and it stopped overnight.

The elephant in the room of this thread is the behaviour of many cyclists who jump lights and generally ignore the rules, which makes drivers hate them as much as they hate the onanists who cut up the traffic in their Audis, BMWs and Mercs. Seeing a cyclist taking liberties annoys me as much as seeing a driver taking liberties and now that there are no Police on patrol, annoyance happens on almost every one of my ten commuting drives a week.

So why does it annoy you?

Guilt and shame.

fatties gonna fat and don't like to be reminded of their own sloth.

Apparently horses find it hard to work out that cyclists are actual human beings. Motorists have a similar problem, however horses will work it out if you talk to them, drivers less so. I blame the lack of oats.

Interesting thought experiment to put to any horsey types who moan about bikes.

Ever seen a horse on its own freak out when it sees a person on a bike?

I was in a courtesy car and it was a shitty little Micra rather than the family saloon I usually drove.

People are really quite unwise. I'm always particularly cautious around courtesy cars!

It's plain and simple because it's seen as a bit odd. Very very few give you shit if you have kids onboard though (though I did get a guy tutting at my 8yo daughter for riding on the pavement the other day, with me riding behind as that road didn't allow supervision from the road. I'm not sure if a sarcastic "Yeah, terrible isn't it?).

People forget about day to day risks (getting hit by a motorised vehicle) and focus on the risk of that dangerous hobby of cycling. The same way my gf (and people on here) get upset when I ride a mile round trip to the shops without a helmet, but wouldn't be bothered if I'd walked it despite similar risks.

It's the same, for example, with strangers, terrorists, and other things pretty unlikely to cause you harm that dominate public discourse.

The only way you combat it is normalising cycling. It's happening but it needs some help with adequate provision. How do you do that when there are more pressing things like stopping Schrodinger's immigrant simultaneously steal our jobs and our benefits (whilst dictating our laws at the same time)?

the biggest trick that the motoring lobby ever pulled off was convincing car owners that it is all the fault of the cyclist.

Guilt and shame.

fatties gonna fat and don’t like to be reminded of their own sloth.

Er, yeah, something like that! Does it make them feel inadequate cos they're not fit and svelte and wouldn't look hot in lycra?

Interesting thought experiment to put to any horsey types who moan about bikes.

Ever seen a horse on its own freak out when it sees a person on a bike?

We should put the horses in cars. See how they get on. Couldn’t be much worse than it is now and it would be pretty funny to see.

I reckon it’s jealously. Seriously.

Yep, spot on.

The other factor is people feeling they are losing out and that the "out group" is getting something they aren't or that resources are being diverted that would have been spent on them. So money spent on cycle lanes is money not being spent fixing potholes and cyclists are all freeloaders who don't pay "road tax" while failing to notice all the legal and illegal tax free cars on the road.

The same narrative works pretty well for lots of other out groups

Equality seems like tyranny to those who are privileged.

Its the fault if the Raleigh Chopper. It turned the idea of ‘bikes’ into ‘toys’ that children grow out of and that’s why there was a big slump in transportational cycling here compared to other countries.

Then somewhere down the line we decided it was too unsafe for our children to leave the house (mostly because of the danger presented by cars), with the only people left cycling branded as MAMILs.

It's quite a sad state we've found ourselves in. It's certainly not something exclusive to the UK, but most other countries I've experienced, there are roughly if not less the same number of serious types on road or mountain bikes than in the UK. Everyone else is just travelling from A to B. It's just a way to get about, accessible for anyone. And it's just not seen that way here.

I blame Clarkson.

The elephant in the room of this thread is the behaviour of many cyclists

That's factor, sure, but even that confirms the tribal "otherness" issue:

Most drivers take "liberties" on the road too (as you noted) but they don't get equally vilified. Some driver liberties are now so commonplace that they are not even considered wrong by the majority (e.g. speeding, going through amber lights, parking illegally, phone use etc).

I think a compounding factor is a cyclist taking liberties that the driver might like to but can't.

there are many examples of this but ISTR that last year the po po set up an operation somewhere in London to clamp down on cyclists breaking laws.

Turned out that the statistics showed they stopped/caught/identified something crazy like ten times as many drivers breaking laws than they did cyclists.

Personally, just happy that as a straight white male in a country that has never seen war in my lifetime, this is the only discrimination I face.

Overall, as a minority group of "cyclists" we get ascribed the worst characteristics of the following, as any non-cyclist cannot distinguish further than "bicycle" in an urban/suburban setting:

1. Chav/byk lyf pavement wheeliers
2. cyclepath eschewing saturday morning chain gangs
3. red light jumping, undertaking commuters

Unfortunately, in my experience of mountain bikers riding on the road as part of an XC ride, large groups of otherwise sensible, driving licence holding adults; once they get into a group of about 6 or more, become incompetent and dangerous idiots. The very same people who are perfectly sensible in a group of 2 or 3 (and I presume, when solo) will turn across oncoming traffic, stop in the middle of a junction, and all other manner of ****wittery. I have no explanation for this.

So why does it annoy you?

I would guess it's because it's reinforcing the negative stereotype and thus fuelling people's dislike of cyclists?

People are really quite unwise. I’m always particularly cautious around courtesy cars!

How can you tell them apart? Some are liveried up perhaps, but most if not all of the ones I've had over the years have been plain cars. The Micra was plain Armitage Shanks White all over.

You're right though. I have zero tolerance for bullies and if you think I have any reservations whatsoever about allowing you to plough your 69-plate A8 into one of the worst cars it's been my misfortune to drive in recent years then you are one off. You'll be the one reversing, dickhead. I've got a book out of the glove box before now and started reading.

all freeloaders who don’t pay “road tax”

One thing I never understood about this argument. I kinda get the notion that they might think we're benefiting from something at their expense, but does it not occur to these boneheads that most cyclists are quite likely to own at least one car also? No-one would dream of throwing that accusation at pedestrians.

Scotland is different, I think

Scotland is not different.

It's simply because the majority of UK drivers do not cycle regularly on the road, and cleave to the common belief (which is still generally tolerated) that cyclists shouldn't really be there.

It’s not just the UK. Even in Holland drivers will punish you if you veer off onto the road when there’s a cycle lane.

I've been waiting (with no right of way) to cross a road in the Netherlands and had a big SUV tank pull to a halt and refuse to move until I crossed the road. I have never seen that happen in the UK. I'm sure some Dutch drivers will get a bit grumpy if someone rides on the road where a path is available (because the paths are generally excellent, and it is much more of a convention to use them) but I bet it is a lot rarer to see the sort of aggression that is common in the UK. I've ridden on a few roads in the Netherlands which were off the cycle network, and drivers were uniformly courteous.

all freeloaders who don’t pay “road tax”

One thing I never understood about this argument. I kinda get the notion that they might think we’re benefiting from something at their expense, but does it not occur to these boneheads that most cyclists are quite likely to own at least one car also? No-one would dream of throwing that accusation at pedestrians.

was more fun up until a few years ago, where the amount of tax they paid was clearly printed on the bit of paper in the windscreen on the passenger side.

Everyone behaves like a total arsehole when the other person isn't standing face-to-face infront of them. Drivers hate cyclists but they also hate other drivers just as much. See also internet users.

Everyone's nice as pie in the supermarket or walking around town. But get into a car and they do things they never would in person - like queue jumping for example.

I’ve been waiting (with no right of way) to cross a road in the Netherlands and had a big SUV tank pull to a halt and refuse to move until I crossed the road. I have never seen that happen in the UK.

It's happened to me plenty of times. One time a car at a T junction in front of me pulled out (I was cycling) so I then pulled forward and looked right over my shoulder - but the driver had immediately stopped to let another cyclist cross the road from the pavement. I nearly hit the back of him. And other occasions where I was counting on the driver moving but they stopped anyway and got in the way.

I’ve ridden on a few roads in the Netherlands which were off the cycle network, and drivers were uniformly courteous.

I found them business-like - on single track roads they expect you to be an experienced cyclist, and they see thousands of cyclists a day, so they tended to blast past quite closely without slowing down.

all freeloaders who don’t pay “road tax”

I think that's mostly just retro-justification.

The elephant in the room of this thread is the behaviour of many cyclists who jump lights and generally ignore the rules, which makes drivers hate them as much as they hate the onanists who cut up the traffic in their Audis, BMWs and Mercs. Seeing a cyclist taking liberties annoys me as much as seeing a driver taking liberties and now that there are no Police on patrol, annoyance happens on almost every one of my ten commuting drives a week.

The elephant in the room is that the "cycling menace" doesn't actually exist.
Go and do a bit of research on red light jumping, road traffic incidents and pedestrian injuries and deaths, and find out who is responsible for the overwhelming majority of incidents and the damage on UK roads. I'll give you a clue; it's not cyclists.

The notion that cyclists somehow deserve what they get because of the behaviour of a tiny minority who cause a tiny percentage of road incidents should be challenged every time it gets repeated.

My favourite ever car advert was the one where you bought a particular shite tin ****-box and were then miraculously transported to a sort of parallel fantasy world where you drove effortlessly through deserted streets while all the other drivers sat fuming just yards away in endless stationary queues, presumably because they'd plumped for the wrong car.

It tells you quite a lot about the emotional draw of motoring and its inevitable frustration. The more people buy 'freedom', the more traffic there is, the more illusory your freedom becomes.

Meanwhile some bastard on a bike just pedals past you as if you're standing still. Because hey, you actually are standing still.

I genuinely don't think it's any more complicated than that. Trying to dress it up as being about 'out groups' and other pseudo sociological rationalisation just over complicates it. Unless you're a horse, in which case you have a different perspective.

Today sums it up for me: Dressed in bright orange with a flashing front light. A Royal Mail van pulls a u-turn on me from the LH side of the road- same direction (no indicators) . I yell whoa! & swerve behind him. He blows his horn & gesticulates at me. Apparently that was my fault.

Unfortunately the world around us is an impatient world these days. And the lack of tolerance in all walks of life is very sad. Maybe its just the era we live in, coupled with the vast number of people trying to inhabit the same space be it roads, pavements, shops etc. I experience many courteous drivers on my commute by bike, actively giving me space, unfortunately countered by the back-eyes who are just oblivious, to those who are downright dangerous to all road users. Shame.

You lot must ride around some shit drivers. The vast majority near me give me enough room, wait for me to pass junctions, and are generally very pleasant. Sure you get the occasional a-hole, but your generalisations of all drivers as homicidal maniacs is as misguided as car drivers thinking all cyclists are ****ers.