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It’s a annual event (the froth over poppies)
I think there is a thread on here most years. And I expect there will probably be one next year, going over the same issues and making the same claims.
I lost my poppy this morning at the vaccination centre walking around with my jacket in my hand after receiving my booster.
I'm going to have to another now which will make me double patriotic this year. Or even more racist/fascist/war glorifier, whatever it is.
"I’ve felt it growing before that. Like I said in an earlier post it definitely took a sharp rise when it was hijacked to garner support for Iraq/Afghanistan."
Notice in that RBL tweet is says "armed forces community, past and present"
I remember the Falklands War where the soldiers who died we're buried by their comrades where they fell, just like British soldiers had for centuries. During the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts soldiers were bought back to Wootton Basset to take place in a very public and media orientated ceremony.
Can anybody explain this to me?
It wasn't possible to fly back until they regained control of the islands and rebuilt the runway plus difficulty storing bodies?
Because the lessons learned about how in some parts of the world CWGC sites aren't respected.
Some locations would make visiting those sites impossible for families.
The logistics and equipment made it much easier in modern times.
Also secure airheads are key.
So makes sense to repatriate the fallen.
The media spectacle, well that's a separate issue entirely.
Also, and this is rather unpalatable but rather detailed forensic examinations are done to the bodies to removed shrapnel/rounds. These have to follow similar protocols as police investigations, those articles are evidence.
Also the deaths have to be subject to a coroners investigation to rule on the cause.
As an example a British born Iraqi was convicted of the murder of a US serviceman in Iraq after his thumbprint was found on parts of the IED that killed said soldier.
I have an enamel one
Mine is a wrist band. Bought a few years ago. I gift aid privately. I also have a lovely bone china mug I bought in the museum at Ypres when we visited. The band has my RoadId mounted. I like practical and understated.
Not sure how the Nationalism part of it works when it's slapped on an Audi......seems like there may be some irony hiding here
****ing hell.
Also, it’s why I have an enamel one. Less faff every year,
Good shout, I'll organise myself one. Partner is Canadian, and their poppies are a nice silk materiel. Makes our paper cut out ones look a bit bargain basement TBH, and it's lasted well for a few years now
https://twitter.com/Barcajim3/status/1458340675649474563?s=20
Incidentally, does anybody from here ride in that group?
JFC!
I note that camper van is registered in le Manche. The Lancaster bomber images I find quite offensive given the way France was pounded in 1945 with little or no thought to civilians. And in some cases very questionable military justification.
I may have mentioned working on a campsite in Royan in 1987. The owner told how the resitants in the Poche de Royan communicated the German movements to the Brits and informed them where the Germans were hidden in the dunes and woods. The RAF apparently took no notice of this intelligence and bombed the town flat (Lancasters) killing hundreds of civilians rather than Germans. While the railway marshalling yards and strategic sites were fair game I've yet to find any reasonable justification for the bombing of a seaside resort cut off from the rest of the German forces. It was later bombed using Napalm which had already been used in St Malo. The old man was amused by my daily running and teased me about how his running speed had saved his life one glacial Junauary night.
I was in Royan last week, Madame took these pics:
and the 50s reconstruction:
So poppies, wear one if you wish, but there's no need for Lancaster bombers on a French registered vehicle. Remembrance yes, glorification no thanks.
“Also we need to recognise that people died on the other side and that their dead need to be thought of whatever we think of individual actions.”
^^ This.
“I’ve always viewed the Poppy as a symbol of the futility of War, sadly far too many people have hijacked it as a symbol of how ‘We’ won 2 World Wars and how it represents some sort of patriotism and honour. “
^^ And this.
“No I am sure you are not the only one. I suspect that it is widespread among those still desperately mourning leaving the EU.”
^^ Not this.
“I say it every year, when the politicians stop laying wreaths one minute and starting wars the next, or start properly caring for veterans I’ll start wearing one. I give some money every year but don’t need a poppy to show for it thanks.”
^^ But this too.
Also when David Cameron promoted the celebration of 2014 as the centenary - rather than the rather more appropriate 2018 if we are really talking about remembrance…
Incidentally, does anybody from here ride in that group?
I've cycled with a member of that club regularly in the past, she was a member of our club as well. Lovely lady. Bit of a shock to anyone who engaged her in conversation mid ride - "so what do you do for a living?" 🤣🤣
Also we need to recognise that people died on the other side and that their dead need to be thought of whatever we think of individual actions.
100% agree - this is why I wear the poppy.
Edit - in case of picture fail, it's graves of German and British soldiers, all unknown, side by side in Northern France.
You guys have got me thinking again. Dangerous.
I will not be wearing a poppy. I don’t like what it represents - or more correctly fails to represent.
But remembrance is good. And a little education about what and why we are remembering. So I choose to remember in different ways.
Taking my then 13 and 8 year old sons to a little local French war museum east of Reims and driving on the back roads round there past cemetery after cemetery was an experience the older one at least will not forget.
But there was hope there too. The museum included pictures of what the village had been reduced to, and information on where the help to rebuild had come from, and the finally the rebuilt village. It didn’t big back the dead, but rebuilding did help prevent the living joining them through the lack of livelihoods and shelter.
On today lets just remember the dead and wounded- civilians and military. Winners and losers, "our side" and enemies. All are dead, all are tragedies and all should be remembered
Lest we forget
.
Do you mean Remembrance Sunday or Armistice day? Never heard either called ‘Poppy day’. Wearing a Poppy is, or should be sweet FA to do with nationalism, patriotism or politics. It’s a simple act of remembrance and a means of fund raising for RBL.
Some people may wish to attach some kind of political significance to it, but they can **** right off. As a veteran it has a very significant meaning to me and most of my ex serving mates and for reasons which are much more contemporary than WW1. I’m not some right wing knuckle dragger or ‘flag shagger’ as some bell end tried to imply poppy wearers were on here a few days ago. My politics, not that it matters as regards the poppy are centre left but people of every political persuasion wear poppies. To remember.
I believe in free choice to remember or not and give zero s**ts if other people choose not to wear a poppy. I do so for my own reasons, not because it’s expected or because I care what others think, positively or negatively about it.
+1
tjagain
What? Our current government is tipping into fascism
😆 You should read up on fascism.
See you all again next November?
See you all again next November?
I reckon it will kick off again on Sunday....
You should read up on fascism.
Oh I have done and they are very much doing so 🙂 the parallels are astonishing
Give us a few? I'm mostly looking for things about their ambitions of turning the country into a 1 party totalitarian state. Kinda by definition you can't be fascist if you are willing to work within democratic systems. So some evidence of that would be nice.
Makes you wonder why we bothered having a world war over fascism.
Tbh it doesn't seem as bad as some people claim.
Probably needs to be a different thread TBH
No it really doesn't need a thread devoted to nonsense about fascism! lol
Anyone fancy telling my Chinese friend the UK is heading to a fascist distopia .
I mean his Facebook page is blocked so you might have to call him and have the state listening in 🎧. he is in Hong Kong so needs a good laugh.
Different argument to the poppy debate I cleaned a war grave yesterday by me. I know there is no one under it but at least I read his name and age 19
I know tj likes to go a bit Rik Mayal from time to time but we would be foolish to dismiss the idea that fascism is on the rise.
Read up on Umberto Eco's 14 characteristics of fascism essay written in 1995. Trump complied with every single one, Its worth a read to see how meany of those points relate to our current mob.
Excusing someone by saying they can't be fascist because they aren't as bad as Hitler is basically saying don't call someone a fascist unless they are a mass murderer. Better to keep an eye on these things before they get out of hand.
Accusing someone of being a fascist is a heavy charge that will often be met with a riposte followed by a futile argument. Look at actions not persons, how many of those 14 points are applicaple to what we see with our own eyes?
At the end of the day, like racism, fascism is as fascism does.
And that's all I've got to say about that.
saying they can’t be fascist because they aren’t as bad as Hitler
Could be wrong but I can't see were anyone has said that. And why choose Hitler as a comparison? Closer to home we have Oswald Moseley, making a comparison him would make more sense.
The point of Trump is that he is no longer in power in a fascist country he still would be. I'm not saying it's not on the rise look closely at the old eastern block.
Sometimes it just dilutes the word to band it about.
I'm not defending trump at all he is a hatful spite filled man.
Again different thread
Point taken Ernie,
You give me Oswald Moseley and I'll give you Jacob Rees Mogg.
Leader of the House of Commons if I'm not mistaken?
Nothing to see here......
The point of Trump is that he is no longer in power in a fascist country he still would be.
It was a pretty close run thing, he did his best to overturn the election result and came pretty close. Thankfully there were enough democratic Republicans to stop him.
The Nazi party subverted the democratic system to get into power in 1933. Once there they stayed. Do you count Russia as fascist or democratic? Holding manipulated sham elections doesn't make a fascist country democratic. Even Raab recognised the Russians meddled in the 2019 election which is quite something for a man unaware of the importance of trade through Dover.
Sometimes it just dilutes the word to band it about.
That's a real risk. The BBC series a couple of years ago on the Rise of the Nazis felt uncomfortably close to the rise of Nationalism around the world. We're not there yet, suggesting we are risks that we'll be so busy arguing about it that we won't see any changes that push us that way.
The word gets banded about a lot, I tend to wonder why people can't just see what's in front of them, it's not fascism, it's just the cold hard and ugly side of capitalism and democracy. Capitalism and democracy doesn't infer good, and can and does have its ugly side also.
Massive trailer on the main shopping drag in Glasgow today selling Remembrance merchandise.
Like the coca cola truck to remember our fallen.
Cringe.
Russia is a tricky one it's lost its way on the world stage. It's also huge like the USA and given the vast difference of opinion and opportunities to its people it's always messy
San Fransisco and Alabama could be in different countries policy wise in USA.
As for Russia it's corruption first then policy Putin is only a page of history away from being a dictator.
Alternatively, MoreCashThanDash, making the same mistakes in allowing propaganda merchants to spread lies with impunity means people get duped into supporting what eventually becomes a power grab with no way to return to democracy.
Make a list of the lies Boris has made to get where he is now. You'll need several pages. Now consider the consequences of those lies and the policies they have led to and the impact on British people. Consider how many people are happy to blindly follow the man wherever he takes them. All that tells me Britain is a flawed democracy like many others. dangerously flawed.
We need Rememberance day to learn about the errors of the past that led to the horrors of war. That part of Rememberance is being replaced by the jingoistic glorification of war in a highly nationalistic manner. Why would a government so reliant on lies and propaganda want to denounce those very things as being the root cause of the conflicts being remembered? It wouldn't and won't.
Alternatively, MoreCashThanDash, making the same mistakes in allowing propaganda merchants to spread lies with impunity means people get duped into supporting what eventually becomes a power grab with no way to return to democracy.
I think we're possible trying to say the same thing just in different ways - yes, I can see parallels between the Tory/Trump et al playbook and the start of the rise of the Nazis, but what we have now isn't fascism, we need to be careful people don't dismiss it now and allow it to become fascism down the line, or at least, a loss of democracy or a dictatorship.
Yeah, I've kinda seen a lot of Eco's list up close and personal.
Cutting down the hung, charred bodies of those who dare opposed their masters will always be a highlight that keeps me awake at night, but it's one of a whole host of other unspeakable acts that many like me saw the aftermath of.
The world is a beautiful place, inhabited by some truly amazing people, who do amazing things. But it also has a darkness that resides in many, a darkness that doesn't limit itself to one ideology.
But many who fantasize about war infantilize the misery it produces, but those who oppose it are often guilty of same trying to assign the darkness an ideology that suits their own politics and narrow view of the world.
OK guys - I did try to leave a nice post on this thread. sorry for my part in the diversion
Sometimes it just dilutes the word to band it about.
Indeed and very true which is why I sad " tipping to facism" is heading that way with those tendencies
But your point there is valid
On today lets just remember the dead and wounded- civilians and military. Winners and losers, “our side” and enemies. All are dead, all are tragedies and all should be remembered
Lest we forget
I was listening to 6 music at 11am today, when Lauren Laverne asked us to remember "all those who gave their lives for peace and freedom" - at which point I have to admit that I shouted "Oh, **** off" at the radio. Most of the dead did not 'give' their lives, their lives were taken. And for what? To satisfy the greed, stupidity and pride of their rulers. So remember and grieve for the dead by all means, but never forget why they died and who sent them to their deaths - and be angry enough about that to make sure it doesn't happen any more.
My neighbour is properly racist. Pretty open about shouting to people on street his views. All his cars have these big plastic poppies, on all year round. I always had this theory thats its a very secret way of signaling ur with the far right?? I tried googling it once, no luck? Maybe its on the dark web!!