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At least it's not torch lit ceremonies at the Reichstag...
As it happens the Germans have been doing the same sort of ceremony for a while now. Only this year they decided to tell everyone about it on Twitter...which, as you can imagine, didn't go as well as they'd perhaps hoped. Makes our "vague unease about Nationalism" pale by comparison.
The fuss leaves me a little bemused every year. It is inextricably linked to politics I feel as ol Tony and Dave used it to drum up support for unpopular military escapades.
I've worn a paper poppy every remembrance period for 24 years, ops excuded.
I grew up never really knowing about my own father's service in Northern Ireland and the Falklands, it wasn't until after I joined the Army that he shared them with me, it was after I returned from my first tour of Afghanistan. He clearly felt I was in a place I could understand
My dad came back from war changed forever, he was quieter and had an air of sadness that as stayed with him until this day. Bayoneting terrified young men and seeing in close up his friends and colleagues killed and injured, so I now very much understand.
To my own service, even when serving I didn't really need one to 'remember'; I'm lucky that I'm of a generation of soldier who got to spend a lot of time with veterans from WW1 through to the first Gulf War.
The pain and burden they carried was evident in their eyes and their words, many hours in their company, listening to their stories left indelible marks on the mind.
Then add in my own personal experiences with conflict. From the Former Yugoslavia at the very start of my career through to my final tour of Afghanistan. I've seen the cost of war on the civilian just trying to live their day to day, I've felt the cost on those in uniform as well.
The memories of slow marching my friends caskets onto a Herc to be flown home, days that I can still remember in technicolour.
The countless other ramp ceremonies and memorial services on ops of ours and other nations fallen.
To the virtual services I've had to attend since leaving where the chaos of war realised a slow acting poison in the minds of my friends who died by their own hand after servicing the best our foes could throw at us.
The bitter irony is I've lost more friends in 24 years to their own hand than I ever did to those who we opposed.
I wear one, because I feel it's the right and proper thing to do. In some small part it would be a betrayal of all those men and women who in one way or another have impacted me through those years for me not to wear one.
But that's me, I care little if you choose to wear one or not. I don't even care if people choose to carry on their lives while others stop to mark these days, the endless debates in the media about it are not about sacrifice or service or the cost of war; its just another vehicle to sell something, be that an ideology, an argument or simply papers.
If we all just let people get on with their lives without judgement and had just a smidge more tolerance for each other maybe we could dispense with these repetitive, circle jerk arguments/discussions and focus on not repeating the mistakes of our past.
Because they were conscripted, and did not volunteer to take arms
Wow.
Have a word with yourself about that statement.
Bold statement there Bridges for sure.
I normally wear a poppy, but was disapointed that my son was told by a teacher that he'd be in detention if he didn't wear a poppy to school this week. Should be a personal choice IMHO.
I normally wear a poppy, but was disapointed that my son was told by a teacher that he’d be in detention if he didn’t wear a poppy to school this week. Should be a personal choice IMHO.
Probably unsustainable if escalated, any compulsion is not on really and merely feeds the "anti" monster as people kick back
Whomever thought it was a good policy needs to explain themselves
That's bonkers Natrix. I'd push back on that if it were me, that kind of mindset helps nothing.
Have a word with yourself about that statement.
Fair comment, and I have, and want to clear up the obvious misunderstanding (my fault because of how I made the statement in the first place).
Of course, there were millions of volunteers in WW1, and I should have said the majority of combatants (on all sides) were conscripted, although I would consider the national fervour whipped up by governments at the time to be a form of coercion to get men to enlist for war. And conscription was vital to the UK being able to mount an armed defence against the Nazis. indeed; members of my own family have been volunteers in numerous conflicts, so I never meant to insult the memory of such brave people.
I was referring more to much more recent conflicts, where the UK has a purely volunteer-staffed military. Again, this doesn't mean each individual is 'wrong' for signing up, just that the context is completely different; our borders aren't under any genuine significant threat, and whilst national defence is sadly still necessary, it is still a choice by the individual to take arms against others, something I am personally opposed to. I don't want that to be interpreted as 'all military personnel are evil'; many sign up for the right reasons. And we should all be grateful to them for doing something many of us choose not to. I also strongly believe in de-colonisation, and would like to see a huge reduction in our armed forces, especially in light of recent illegal and immoral conflicts the UK has been complicit in creating.
I wear one, because I feel it’s the right and proper thing to do. In some small part it would be a betrayal of all those men and women who in one way or another have impacted me through those years for me not to wear one.
I totally respect this, and would like to thank you for posting that.
Don't worry bridges, I got you first time round. The article you linked to about Matic was really illuminating and that linked to another Stoke player from Derry which threw even more light on the subject.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46095169
Is that real? I assume it is.
Words fail me. The massive hypocrisy of jingoistic rhetoric juxtaposed with the official flower of never again.
1) I hope they were joking
2) That’s in pretty poor taste
3) That cheapens poppy-wearing beyond belief whether or not they were joking.
The massive hypocrisy of jingoistic rhetoric juxtaposed with the official flower of never again.
Yep, just about sums the whole thing up for me.
As for being real, that debate is nothing, we had a Tory backbencher suggest we should go to war with Spain over Gibralter last year (as part of the Brexit debate). This was in the house of commons...
To be fair, reading that back words didn’t fail me.
Those words are roughly about spot on.
Yep, the B word has caused a lot of problems. Gibraltar, fishing, Northern Ireland.
The EU is one of the political structures put in place to increase the chances of it never happening again. Perhaps a wilted poppy for those who voted against unity in 2016?
Maybe it's me but this feels a bit... distasteful.
https://www.poppyshop.org.uk/products/pull-the-pin-legion-100-limited-edition-rum
"Pull the pin"? Seriously?
Maybe it’s me but this feels a bit… distasteful.
Not just you. Error of judgement, shall we say?
Bizarre 😕
And what makes it ironic/even more weird is that it looks far more like a German WW1/2 potato masher than a British grenade.
What were they thinking?!?
the official flower of never again
It's never really been that though has it? Or if it was it hasn't worked very well!
"Pull the pin" is a brand of rum that was set up by an ex-commando who was invalided out. He was helped by the Legion so has produced a special edition for fundraising as a thank you.
Well that's the history behind it. Thanks mefty.
What is the justification of trivialising a horrific weapon of war by having an "amusing" reference to detonation?
Edit : Just to be clear I have no issue at all with light-hearted references to wars, eg I loved the Carlsberg Dambuster adverts, but the whole point of the Remembrance Sunday/Poppy Appeal is, I thought, to have a sombre reminder of the horrors of war.
There's a time and a place.
What it shouldn’t be about:
Large scale televised military parades.
Putting pressure on people to wear a poppy.
Calling it a festival.
Making it only about the military.
Focusing on ‘victories’ i.e. WWII.
Religion.
It's not about any of these things.
Ex-service people laying their respects in uniform at the cenotaph is not a military parade.
I don't believe people are pressured to wear a poppy. Different if you're on TV or a politician who I think should wear them, but not the average Joe on the street.
Never heard it referred to as a festival ever.
Not just about the military...all people who served and contributed are represented and remembered.
Well kind of is about victories...but not individual wars and battles, but the victory of freedom over tryanny, which is worthy of celebration in my book.
Religion - well nothing should be about religion in my view. Religion is a personal choice much like your personal choice to play Squash or Tennis and shouldn't have any consideration in broader political issues. But all religions are represented. All corners of the British Empire at the time answered the call to arms to fight against tyranny and all religions, colours and creeds are represented and remembered. So hardly the sign of something that is nationalistic...just the opposite.
God it's changed hasn't it? I don't think it's possible to deny it anymore, hijacked by small minded right wingers and nationalists. They don't completely own it yet, but it seems inevitable.
Once a solemn reminder of the terrible price of War and a lesson from history to not let it happen again. Now, for a lot of people anyway it seems to be a chance to celebrate decades old 'wins' and rub them in the face of our international neighbours.
I always buy a Poppy, I'll usually lose it in in the car in a couple mins, but if I'm being honest, I feel self-conscious these days wearing it. I'm a middle-aged man, and a I don't want to be associated with all those other middle-aged men who seem to utterly fall in love with Wars and the Military, once they're safely too old to get involved themselves of course. "Two World Wars and One World Cup" types.
I don't know if it's Brexit, or the UKs gradual slide to the right, a growing desire to cover our houses and cars in plastic tat for any reason, or just I'm more sensitive to it, but 'Poppy Day' feels like some kind of grotesque festival to celebrate the brave winners of COD WW2 and Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday a chance to out-remember each other.
Well kind of is about victories…but not individual wars and battles, but the victory of freedom over tryanny, which is worthy of celebration in my book.
It's really not that.
I don’t know if it’s Brexit, or the UKs gradual slide to the right, a growing desire to cover our houses and cars in plastic tat for any reason, or just I’m more sensitive to it, but ‘Poppy Day’ feels like some kind of grotesque festival to celebrate the brave winners of COD WW2 and Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday a chance to out-remember each other.
This is something I've noticed more of recently. Cars done out in "poppywrap". There are several massively distasteful ones I've seen including a great big horse box. Just a way of shouting "I'm remembrancing more than you are!"
https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch/status/1448898437030764547
It’s really not that.
It is for me. Struggling to understand what it fundamentally is about if not that. You can argue the toss about the particulars of the ceremony's but fundamentally its about defeating tyranny and the sacrifices we've made in order to do so...freedom has come at a very heavy price and therefore all the more worthwhile defending. Care to expand assuming you're not going to go on a rant about right wing nationalists...because it certainly isn't about that.
I don’t know if it’s Brexit, or the UKs gradual slide to the right,
When were we a 'left wing' country? We've had Labour governments, but most since WW2 at least, have been Conservative and not all Labour administrations have been particularly left wing, and not all Conservative governments have been particularly right wing. We're basically a moderate country politically and most governments have reflected that. Though in recent times it does feel we're diverting to ever more extremes.
This is something I’ve noticed more of recently. Cars done out in “poppywrap”.
Word.
I spotted this in Swansea yesterday, I thought the googly eyes really help with the respectful, sombre tone of the 'piece'.
Well that’s the history behind it. Thanks mefty.
What is the justification of trivialising a horrific weapon of war by having an “amusing” reference to detonation?
Edit : Just to be clear I have no issue at all with light-hearted references to wars, eg I loved the Carlsberg Dambuster adverts, but the whole point of the Remembrance Sunday/Poppy Appeal is, I thought, to have a sombre reminder of the horrors of war.
There’s a time and a place.
The subject of this thread is in people's mind because of the time of year, but the RBL do incredible work all year round to support the living, not just remember the dead. Remembrance is a relatively small part of their actual work, although the poppy appeal is of course an important fund raiser. But they also run events (including cycling and running events) and sell lots of merchandise.
They also sell tea, beer, Christmas cards, coffee, sports kit etc. Non of these are 'sombre reminders of war', nor intended to be used in remembrance (they sell plenty of wreathes etc for that), but just to raise funds for the organisation year round. Many of them, including the rum, are sold as part of their 'veterans market' - giving a platform for veteran run small businesses and also raising funds for the legion's work - win, win.
The post above highlighting the rum strikes me as someone trawling their website, just looking for something to take offence at. Sad
The post above highlighting the rum strikes me as someone trawling their website, just looking for something to take offence at. Sad
It wasn't me that posted it but...
It popped up on Twitter although how many people were reading/retweeting it with the intent of being professionally offended by "poor taste tat" and how many had looked beyond the initial image to the story behind it, who knows.
The problem is that there is so much tat now, so much overt "I'm remembrancing!!", that actual veteran-led initiatives get caught up in it. My first thought on looking at that rum thing was indeed to think that it was bandwagon jumping: "grenade" plus alcohol plus the name - it just seemed (to me) a bit like buying a commemorative mug or plate where you're more concerned about being seen to buy and have said tat than actually caring about what it represents.
I spotted this in Swansea yesterday, I thought the googly eyes really help with the respectful, sombre tone of the ‘piece’.
The shit parking ....
The post above highlighting the rum strikes me as someone trawling their website, just looking for something to take offence at. Sad
Thanks - saw it on Twitter and, whilst I appreciate and support any and all fundraising for the RBL, it did (and does) strike me as uncomfortably dissonant that a charity that helps veterans is selling an alcoholic beverage with a hand grenade motif, given A) the relatively high incidence of alcoholism amongst veterans and B) the very much higher incidence of PTSD amongst veterans with specific regard to their exposure to explosive devices like hand grenades. But hey, you and the RBL think differently so maybe I'm just a miserable git, we're all adults so having different opinions is fine.
We’re basically a moderate country politically and most governments have reflected that.
Moderate?
There was nothing moderate about the 1945 British government which established the principal of universal free healthcare, a total unique concept in the Western world.
Nor was there anything moderate about the 1979 British government which launched a mass privatisation of huge industries and utility providers, again quite unique in the Western world at that time.
Though in recent times it does feel we’re diverting to ever more extremes.
Those two examples I gave are pretty definitive post-war British governments so "non-moderate" British governments is nothing new.
I spotted this in Swansea yesterday, I thought the googly eyes really help with the respectful, sombre tone of the ‘piece’.
That's Tredz carpark. Our hero is a cyclist?
we’re all adults so having different opinions is fine.
👍 Agree. And adults ('even' veterans) should be free to buy a bottle of hooch from the off licence, or even the RBL if they fancy it 😉
👍 Agree. And adults (‘even’ veterans) should be free to buy a bottle of hooch from the off licence, or even the RBL if they fancy it 😉
Got no problem with that. 🙂
No need to tell us what you think about it wobbliscot, you told us already on page 3 of the thread, here's just a taste...
"Just like taking the knee, glueing yourself to a road and stopping traffic and ambulances pulling down statues of people by people (mostly white rich middle class people) who have no idea about who the statue is and why the statue was erected in the first place"
Your first contribution to the thread was to bring up taking the knee, you were looking for a symbol you could weaponise to troll those who have a different political or social perspective (or colour) than your own and you found it in the poppy.
You remind me of like that plastic patriot who was beating a policeman with a blue lives matter flag at the capitol building.
But closer to home...are you -
The mad bag lady from Father Ted?
Our Culture Secretary?
Jim Davidson?
A Middlesbrough fan?
Or the the owner of one of those cars on the previous page?
We’re basically a moderate country politically and most governments have reflected that.
What? Our current government is tipping into fascism and is hard right wing. Moderate is the german centre right. tories are hard or far right and a very extreme government deliberately stoking racism, deliberately impoverishing large sectors of the population and its adherence to libertarianism has resulted in huge numbers of deaths
50 000 alone died from Austerity
Our current government is tipping into fascism
It's just a matter of time before they arrest Keir Starmer and execute him.
How appropriate to raise it on this thread.
What? Our current government is tipping into fascism and is hard right wing.
Bollox like this aways diminishes the fight against real facists
Boris the spendoholic is taxing and spending like a socialist, he might talk differently, but it's the reality
Yeah Johnson isn't a socialist but let's not derail this thread entirely.
Although if I may point out that when TJ talks of Johnson killing 50,000 through austerity I assume he is referring to this article in the Guardian last month :
The problem is that the article refers to the 2010-15 period long before Johnson was PM. So presumably that makes David Cameron and Nick Clegg almost fascists.
Although it might be more appropriate to call Nick Clegg a Vichy Government style collaborator, to vaguely steer the thread back on topic.
Let's be real, it doesn't take much for certain sections of society to flip almost anything into some Nationalist ****fest. This discussion spins around every year, starts the same way, goes through the same hoops as last, and fades as quickly as it began.
I encountered those sorts at almost all of the public facing occasions I had to spend time on over the course of my career.
But the noise of these mouth-breathers doesn't interfere with the thoughts in my own head when I think of those i've lost and the deeper impact of conflict on all those involved.
Why should it? They're irrelevant.
ut the noise of these mouth-breathers doesn’t interfere with the thoughts in my own head when I think of those i’ve lost and the deeper impact of conflict on all those involved.
Why should it? They’re irrelevant.
My concerns are the more this fetishisation becomes normalised, the greater the pushback against those that don't participate - for example, as referred to earlier, the demonisation of anyone in the public sphere that doesn't wear a poppy on television. Definitely a thing that has only really become an issue over the last 5 - 10 years or so, but now seems almost normal for the flag-shaggers to have a pop at someone.
Soon we'll have compulsory rembrancing or else...
I've felt it growing before that. Like I said in an earlier post it definitely took a sharp rise when it was hijacked to garner support for Iraq/Afghanistan.
To be fair, war has always been a fetish in this country, it appeals to the baser nature of a great many. When you've seen it up close your opinion can mature rather quickly though.
But what isn't politicised today? We're a nation that reacts to/compares against/judges things from a place of identity and emotion.
That gives people space to play silly buggers.
Soon we’ll have compulsory rembrancing or else…
I doubt we will honestly. It's a annual event (the froth over poppies) that just gets out of hand and few folks get much publicity and the social media bots get dusted off, and cranked up a gear or two. Meanwhile in the real world, no one is being lynched or cares really whether one wears a poppy or not. I mean, I keep meaning to get one, but honestly I've had a hard time over the last couple of days to find some-one who can sell me one.
What @nickc said.
Also, it's why I have an enamel one. Less faff every year, but I can still throw money their way online.
TBH in contrast to the blanket wearing of poppies on the TV, I think fewer people in the real world wear poppies now than maybe 20/30 years ago and certainly fewer than when I was a kid.
Not sure if it's because people don't wear traditional coats and jackets any more or the whether people are being put off by how far it's all been taken by some.
Hopefully it isn't impacting on RBL donations.
As I mentioned before - I have one on my jacket coat - it stays there so if I'm wearing a waterproof or just a hoody or something I'm not wearing it. Either way I'm not making a point to others, neither have I, even vaguely, felt any disapproval either way.
https://twitter.com/PoppyLegion/status/1457983549454307331
I know it's twitter and they are probably paid Russians but still... (the comments)