[Closed] What makes a man in 2017?

Just one example: three times as many men drink themselves to death as women in France and Sweden. That's the ones who haven't already killed themselves doing stupid things when drunk.

But is that down to an inherent unhappiness or, for that matter, the social conditioning as "real men" as being drinking, smoking, fighting demi-gods? 🙂

I don't agree. Media and marketing are designed around the archetypes of a society. They have to resonate with their target audience otherwise they fail. There will be exceptions that turn expected norms on their head for comedic or dramatic effect but for the most part they are accurate.

But you can ignore marketing. Granted, some people probably can't, but I've never bought something because I feel it spoke to my manliness (whatever that is).

I suspect this is down to not seeing gender as a relevant factor

Sorry for only partially quoting but this pretty much sums it up for me. Just be the person you want to be regardless of gender. As long as you're not hurting anyone just crack on and live your life. Bollocks to how society perceives you. Life is much too short for that

...Just one example: three times as many men drink themselves to death as women in France and Sweden. That's the ones who haven't already killed themselves doing stupid things when drunk... ...real men" as being drinking, smoking, fighting demi-gods?

I'm of Nordic descent but managed to give all that up whilst on the train back south after a long weekend in York.

But you can ignore marketing. Granted, some people probably can't, but I've never bought something because I feel it spoke to my manliness (whatever that is).

Sorry for only partially quoting but this pretty much sums it up for me. Just be the person you want to be regardless of gender. As long as you're not hurting anyone just crack on and live your life. Bollocks to how society perceives you.Life is much too short for that

I think, though, the question being asked is whether you are "living your life" according to norms set down by society that you unwittingly pander to. It starts as an infant with many parents selecting blue for boys, pink for girls. Sure, people do break that mould but just look around you and see how many people conform to a relatively narrow view of what feminine and masculine mean. When was the last time you wore a dress to work; on hot days I bet it's better than trousers 😉

When was the last time you wore a dress to work; on hot days I bet it's better than trousers

Strikes me that to have a precise universal definition for something, being able to pigeonhole, to assign right and wrong, true and false, with no grey areas, uncertainty and to have empirical evidence is a very male trait.

This forum for example.

Look at the sheer volume of threads that discuss or pose questions such as homeopathy, religion, spiritualism are concerned and immediately, the detractors are....?

Does masculinity mean certainty about stuff? A measure of ones grasp and control of their environment? Does this fear of the unknown lead to narrow mindedness? Dogmatic intransigence to accept anything other than ' if I can see it, smell it, touch it, then it's real, if not it's bollox? IME, the majority of men express their fears in this way, especially here. I feel sorry for their spouses.

No dear I"m questioning your validity and contribution to society.

Maybe start a different thread once your man-period has finished.

Have you got anything useful to contribute

I contributed an opinion earlier in the thread don't ya know.

Are you on your man-period?

Just be the person you want to be regardless of gender. As long as you're not hurting anyone just crack on and live your life. Bollocks to how society perceives you. Life is much too short for that

That's pretty much my view on things, constantly worrying about how you measure up in society and how other people see you will just end up making you unhappy.

No dear I"m questioning your validity and contribution to society

😯 Based on a couple of probably not to serious posts on the internet, are you actually being serious?

Dogmatic intransigence to accept anything other than ' if I can see it, smell it, touch it, then it's real, if not it's bollox

A valid point.

1. More cosmetics than a woman in 2017
2. More body shaving " "
3. Undefended against discrimination

But you can ignore marketing.

funkmasterp - Member

Media and marketing are designed around the archetypes of a society. They have to resonate with their target audience otherwise they fail. There will be exceptions that turn expected norms on their head for comedic or dramatic effect but for the most part they are accurate.

But you can ignore marketing. Granted, some people probably can't, but I've never bought something because I feel it spoke to my manliness (whatever that is).

Of course you can ignore an advert. But all of the people won't ignore all marketing and media all of the time. You commented that a certain portrayal of men in the media was just how society wishes or thinks how men view themselves, that's very important. That portrayal isn't plucked out of the blue, it's a studied and considered distillation designed to convey a message to a specific target.

Culture shapes the media and media shapes the culture.

Been reading this with some interest. Being in my mid 50s I was brought up in a traditional working class environment in which my Dad went to work had his dinner on the table, sat on his arse and watched the telly and went to the pub, he had no involvement with anything to do with me or home and I was working at 16 and left home at 21.

I suppose I was maybe the first generation that was present at births, looked after babies, became reasonably domesticated etc. However we decided I would work and my other half would be a stay at home Mum which I think worked well for our kids and my other half - but to be frank providing for 4 kids in The "new" world of University and supporting them into their 20s has without doubt ruined my health and has reduced my quality of life and life expectancy.

I look at my two eldest (sons) who have settled relationships and the balance between them and their partners is really good.

I think men of a certain age have had a tough time.

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Bus drivers in Nantes wearing skirts as drivers aren't allowed to wear shorts.

Pah, the Scots have been wearing skirts for years.

So did anyone watch

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b09202jz?suggid=b09202jz ]No More Boys and Girls: Can Our Kids Go Gender Free?[/url]

Ever wondered why men die at a younger age than women?

Because they want to.

slowoldman - Member

So did anyone watch

No More Boys and Girls: Can Our Kids Go Gender Free?

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/no-more-boys-and-girls/page/6 ]Six page thread about it. [/url] Fill your boots.

Ah thanks jimjam I'd missed that (obviously).

Been reading this with some interest. Being in my mid 50s I was brought up in a traditional working class environment in which my Dad went to work had his dinner on the table, sat on his arse and watched the telly and went to the pub, he had no involvement with anything to do with me or home and I was working at 16 and left home at 21.

The irony is that the farthers returning from war and fathering the baby boomer generation were the most involved and hands on dads in history up to that point.

I suppose I was maybe the first generation that was present at births, looked after babies, became reasonably domesticated etc.

Nope! :wink:. My late dad who would be 69 now - cooked, cleaned up and was a very hands on dad in terms of both emotional and physical care of his kids.

My late maternal grandfather cooked, did laundry and also looked after his daughters. He was self-employed so mainly flexed his hours around my grandmothers full-time job when the children were young. He would be 90 in December.

jamj1974, your dad sounded like my late dad who would have been 79 tomorrow. He was very hands-on with childcare, cleaning and cooking when he wasn't at his scrap yard
🙂

*High-fives Vickypea*. 🙂

Isn't it just about continuing your line in the gene pool just like it is for every other creature?
Maybe different challenges through the generations but the same prize.

geetee1972 - Member
Oh, you're questioning my intellect. At least you didn't question my masculinity, that would have been devastating daaaaarling.
No dear I"m questioning your validity and contribution to society. Have you got anything useful to contribute, a reasoned argument or some useful insight on this topic?

A man doesn't GAF about other people's opinion of his manliness.

A man knows how to wear a kilt and look natural (something not all Scots manage).

where the little lady is preparing the evening meal while geetee is sat in his favourite comfy chair reading the paper.

You do know what my wife does right, and what I do that makes that possible?

You can sit there and accuse me of being a chauvinist dinosaur meanwhile in our house it's my wife's job that takes precedence and I lead with managing the kids and the household.

How is it in your house CZ?

epicyclo - Member

A man doesn't GAF about other people's opinion of his manliness.

I don't think the thread is about kilts, or beards or muscles or testicles (none of which appear to be the exclusive preserve of men anymore anyway).

holding doors open, walking on the outside of the pavement, standing up to let a woman take my seat.

That's not old fashioned - that's just good manners.

CountZero - Member

geetee1972 - Member
Oh, you're questioning my intellect. At least you didn't question my masculinity, that would have been devastating daaaaarling.

No dear I"m questioning your validity and contribution to society. Have you got anything useful to contribute, a reasoned argument or some useful insight on this topic?

Hmmm, patronising and condescending, how very 1970's male.
I can pretty much see the advert where the little lady is preparing the evening meal while geetee is sat in his favourite comfy chair reading the paper.

So there you have masculinity in the 21st century - calling each other names on an internet forum

No one is calling anyone names. There is some robust challenging going on and we fervently disagree but that's OK, that's how it should be. The debate is important.

To be clear, on the original question, my position is simple.

I think the notion of what defines masculinity in 2017 is very important and should be debated. This is essential if we are to liberate everyone from cloying and repressive gender stereotypes. You cannot do that if you’re not able to articulate, validate and accept alternative forms of expression for both men and women (i.e. masculinity and femininity).

No one is saying you have to be part of the debate. No is saying you have to feel as strongly about it as some of us do. And no one is saying you need to actively define and engage with your own notion of masculinity. You can be whoever you want to be and if all you want to do is say ‘hey, this subject isn’t important to me’ then that’s fine and no one has a problem with that.

What’s not fine; what will result in people’s heckles being raised and people like me calling you out, is saying that in a way that really says ‘this subject is unimportant or irrelevant and really has no place for discussion in our society.’ That is what some people have done – the ‘I’ve lost count of the ways I couldn’t give a ****’ about masculinity’, to paraphrase one comment, being a case in point. And if that’s not what you meant then my apologies but really maybe you should give some thought to the way you express your lack of interest so that it doesn’t get misinterpreted.

Are most suicides in men because more of them go through with it, or is that 80:20 split between men and women also seen in those who have suicidal feelings?

Are most suicides in men because more of them go through with it, or is that 80:20 split between men and women also seen in those who have suicidal feelings?

Well that’s a very interesting question. Another interesting, related to that, might be whether the experience of suicidal feelings is less well managed in men than women (because men are less able in general to process emotions) and that this is the reason we see more male suicides.

The question then is whether the self reported rates of having suicidal feelings are the same across men and women or indeed higher in one or other group.

What is particular telling though is the fact that women score more highly on neuroticism; they tend to think about things, worry about things or feel anxious more than men. You might be forgiven then for concluding that higher neuroticism would lead to higher rates of suicide but it seems that the opposite is true.

It might even be that a higher level of neuroticism might actually provide you with some degree of immunity against the suicide. That must be a question that’s been asked in the psychology community.

There's a lot of knickers in a twist here. Ooh, a real man does this and that.

I'm on parental leave as my partner earns significantly more than me and the baby is only 9 months old. I've just put him to bed and can spend a few minutes on here before I **** off to Mumsnet where they're allowed to swear.

I hope he grows up to do whatever the hell he wants.

What is particular telling though is the fact that women score more highly on neuroticism; they tend to think about things, worry about things or feel anxious more than men.

Have you met my wife?

She's endless asking me if I also worry about X or Y, to which the answer is always 'No'.

jimjam - Member
'epicyclo - Member
A man doesn't GAF about other people's opinion of his manliness."

I don't think the thread is about kilts, or beards or muscles or testicles (none of which appear to be the exclusive preserve of men anymore anyway).

Sorry, the last line was click bait.

I was waiting for the answer "I don't GAF about kilts." 🙂

How is it in your house CZ?

You were the one using a patronising term to a woman who was challenging you. I mean "No dear I'm questioning your validity and contribution to society"
I mean, really?

Hang ona minute, did yo read what enfht posted to provoke that responses? He/she (I really don't know what their sex/gender is but had assumed it was male) wrote:

Calm down sweetie, no need to get your knickers in a twist.

He posted his opinion, his opinion isn't useful to you but it's still his opinion none the less.

Are you on your man-period?

That' was a particularly nasty comment don't you think. And 'no dear' is gender neutral but yes it was patronising in this context and quite deliberately so.

Are most suicides in men because more of them go through with it, or is that 80:20 split between men and women also seen in those who have suicidal feelings?

More women consider it and attempt it but many more men 'succeed'.

"The Adult Psychiatric Morbidity in England 2007 survey found that 19% of women had considered taking their own life. For men the figure was 14%. And women aren’t simply more likely to think about suicide – they are also more likely to act on the idea. The survey found that 7% of women and 4% of men had attempted suicide at some point in their lives. But of the 5,981 deaths by suicide in the UK in 2012, more than three quarters (4,590) were males."

More women consider it and attempt it but many more men 'succeed'.

That is interesting

Does the research offer any suggestions as to why the rate is so much higher for men, i.e. why men succeed more readily? It cannot be down to capability; it must be down to intent and motive, i.e. the degree to which you really want to achieve a specific outcome.

Perhaps it is something to do with the underlying motives for attempting suicide. For instance, the difference between attempting it as a cry for help and attempting it as a means of regaining control (which is a very common motive apparently).

The need for control motive possibly aligns closely with the concept of 'conscientiousness', which we know tends to be observed more readily in men.

The ‘cry for help’ motive possibly aligns to neuroticism, which we know tends to be observed more readily in women.