[Closed] What makes a man in 2017?

What makes a man in 2017?

I'll ask the wife.

Which is actually a serious answer.
Being masculine is about attracting a partner, and in this thankfully unhomogenised and enlightened time, we realise that all people are individuals, so our 'masculinity' if such a thing exists, is bespokely tailored to suit each individual potential partner.

For practicality we retain a balance of our own individuality, rather than becoming some sort of projection of their fantasy, or else they themselves won't have anything to base themselves on.

It's a pretty neat system.

That's my theory posted from my van somewhere on a windswept moor, where I have taken the kids for the night so t'other half can have a lie-in tomorrow

sadly to be a man in 2017 you have to be as female as possible

Re Depression and number of threads on here etc.

I don't think it has anything to do with a lack of understanding or definition of manhood / masculinity. Nor do I think having one would make any difference.

For the record I had a nervous breakdown in 2007 and have been on SSRIs ever since. Had bugger all to do with masculinity.

I'm not understanding this having to be as female as possible thing. I, as many on here probably know from other threads, suffer with depression and have done most of my adult life. It has nothing to do with my status as a man though. Of course other people may suffer with mental illness that is related to how they feel they do or don't fit in to society. Depression can start for a multitude of reasons.

Edit - footflaps said it better whist I was typing this

I didn't say it shouldn't be debated, I was trying to say that there shouldn't be rules about what makes a man (or a woman for that matter)

100% agree.

so our 'masculinity' if such a thing exists, is bespokely tailored to suit each individual potential partner.

Well, yes maybe, but then maybe not. Think of it like this. All people are genuinely individual; no two people are entirely alike, not even twins.

And yet, it is still possible to broadly group people together if you make the boundaries describing those people wide enough. So, for example, everyone is measurable along an axis that describes extroversion, neuroticism, agreeableness, openess and conscientousness. If you measure the population on these traits the data is normally distributed.

People are all individually, but they are also all a bit alike. So while you're own expression of masculinity is indeed unique to you, it's not that unique that people won't recognise it as such.

Anyway, top of the list of things we need to discuss is why almost 80% of all suicides are men.

This..

How many threads on here about suicide & depression?

How many of those threads are started by men??

Genuinely curious as to what you mean by expression of masculinity? I don't knowingly express masculinity I just do stuff that I like doing and be me. How that fits in with anyone's idea of what a man is doesn't really enter the equation. Well, at least not until I opened this thread.

Is the suicide stat a worldwide one or just based on the western world?

neuroticism

What makes a man in 2017????
Might have been said already but a birth year of ....1996??
As a man I can't multitask to check-
Google the medical age a boy becomes a man.
Do subtraction.
Type this.

[url= https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2015registrations#main-points ]ONS Suicide stats[/url]

"2. Statistician’s quote
"While the increase in the suicide rate this year is a result of an increase in female suicides, males still account for three quarters of all suicides. There has also been a continued increase in suicides for males under the age of 30, however, these remain lower than the peak seen in the late 1990's and remains significantly lower than the suicide rate for middle-aged males despite falls in recent years."

You have to ask why more men than women commit suicide..........

[url= https://www.samaritans.org/about-us/our-research/research-report-men-suicide-and-society ]Samaritans report[/url]

I'm with you GeeTee. How can you understand feminism without understanding what we might term 'masculinism'...? Neither exists in a vacuum. Also without understanding where gender roles and stereotypes have come from and are maintained - we cannot move past them...

I believe in white privilege. However, it doesn't mean that people from white European backgrounds cannot have serious issues in their lives. That's not what white privilege means.

Given the generally accepted social status of the majority of forum posters this should probably be renamed whitemalepriviligetrackworld and yet unhappiness and depression seems rife. Perhaps all these privileged men complaining about their lives should just go quietly into a corner and kill themselves?

Apart from I didn't imply any of that. People get depressed for all sort of reasons and from all backgrounds and statuses, I don't think masculinity in 2017 is one of the key ones...

The mental health lecture I went to recently said that this is not a thing, it's sexist and the word should not be used.

Well that statement contradicts decades of established research into profiling and personality.

There IS a problem with people misunderstanding and misuing the term and it is absolutely true that the spectrum of what 'neuroticism' measures, does produce a normal distribution for women that is shunted slightly to the right compared with men. So women as a (very large) set score higher than men (I think it's about 1SD).

But that doesn't mean neuroticism is a negative thing; it can be for sure but then so can low agreeableness (which men score much higher on than women by about the same margin).

It is true that the term has acquired negative connotations and it is true that society has used the data in a pejorative way towards women, but that doesn't mean it's not a thing. It is.

My understanding of neuroticisn is that is translates broadly as the degree to which you tend to worry about things or feel anxious. There are many subsets of that of course but if you think about it, being blase and laissez faire about everything tends to result in a poor outcome. You need a certain amount of neuroticism in order to care about things.

The mental health talk you attended and the statement you heard made sounds very much like the kind of 'cultural marxism' that is dumbing down our universities. That a 'thing' has been ill used doesn't mean the thing should stop existing; it does mean it's musapropriation should be addressed though.

The XY chromosome determines maleness. Anything else is subjective. If I believe I'm a giraffe does that make me a giraffe?

kerley - Member

Apart from I didn't imply any of that. People get depressed for all sort of reasons and from all backgrounds and statuses, I don't think masculinity in 2017 is one of the key ones...

No you just said

All smacks a bit of a white person saying what a hard time they have been white and living in the UK.

The obvious inference being that if you are white you shouldn't say you're having a hard time. Doubly so if you're a white male. Because, y'know if you're a white man you're running the world along with Trump and Putin.

The Samaritans link even states that emotional illiteracy is one of the main factors in the high suicide rates in men. It's men's ability to deal with pain and stifle emotions that make them more likely to kill themselves or to just live in misery and depression.

Our fathers and our grandfathers probably never had to question what a man's role in the world was. That's nowhere near as obvious for boys growing up today.

Our fathers and our grandfathers probably never had to question what a man's role in the world was. That's nowhere near as obvious for boys growing up today.

This is such a good point it's precisely because of the liberation of women (and rightly so) that the role of men has changed and by default the notion of masculinity.

Look you can say you're not interested in notions of masculinity but saying there's no such thing is just ignorant and stupid. You only have to look at adverts for men's products and compare examples from the 70s with now to see very clearly that there is absolutely a shared notion of 'masculinity'.

Of course the irony here is that the tendency to dismiss anything other than cold empirical and logical phenomena is itself a classic masculine trait.

This is such a good point it's precisely because of the liberation of women (and rightly so) that the role of men has changed and by default the notion of masculinity.

Nail on the head.

Women's lib has meant that traditional female & male roles have changed. I think the female role is more clearly defined, as it is that one which has been pushed to evolve, men on the other hand have not had an evolved role outlined for them with quite the same definition. Hence, a bit of a vacuum.

The obvious inference being that if you are white you shouldn't say you're having a hard time. Doubly so if you're a white male.

Nope, not what I was saying either. What I am saying is that the hard time a white person is having is very unlikely to be caused by the fact they are white.

I have specifically stated that the being white bit is the bit that tis giving them the hard time.
"All smacks a bit of a white person saying what a hard time they have being white and living in the UK"

How can you understand feminism without understanding what we might term 'masculinism'...?

That sounds logical, although the feminism debate has become really complicated these days to the point where it's sometimes disappearing up its own backside. The evolution in the female role was supposed to be an evolution towards more equality, for example getting the same pay for doing the same job. Shouldn't the debate be about how we all live together without detriment to one group?

I've somehow managed to put my response in a quote format
😀

 

Look you can say you're not interested in notions of masculinity but saying there's no such thing is just ignorant and stupid. You only have to look at adverts for men's products and compare examples from the 70s with now to see very clearly that there is absolutely a shared notion of 'masculinity'.

That's just the changing face of marketing and how society wishes or thinks that men view themselves, you can choose to ignore it if you like. Calling people ignorant and stupid is a tad harsh don't you think? I'm not saying there is no such thing, just that it is completely irrelevant to me.

Calling people ignorant and stupid is a tad harsh don't you think? I'm not saying there is no such thing, just that it is completely irrelevant to me.

Apologies if it came across as directed at you. I think it's of no consequence if someone doesn't feel that a sense of their own masculinity is important to them. It's just ignorant and stupid to suggest that it either doesn't exist or is irrelevant in society. I think some people were suggesting that.

The marketing comment is interesting. Why do you think marketing people chose those particular images as a representation? That's the point of defining anything in society. Look around at the messages being encoded in what you see.

It's semiotics if you're interest in the broader subject matter.

Have to say that making ends meet while still having what is called a life has occupied my mind far more through my adult life than any concerns about what place masculinity plays in modern society.
Basically I've come up short on the number of ***** I need to not give on the matter.

Well if you have nothing useful to contribute on this subject don't waste your time responding.

Well if you have nothing useful to contribute on this subject don't waste your time responding.

Calm down sweetie, no need to get your knickers in a twist.

He posted his opinion, his opinion isn't useful to you but it's still his opinion none the less.

Are you on your man-period?

His opinion was he has no opinion.

And how about you? Do you have anything remotely constructive to add or is that the limit of your intellect?

funkmasterp - Member

That's just the changing face of marketing and how society wishes or thinks that men view themselves, you can choose to ignore it if you like.

I don't agree. Media and marketing are designed around the archetypes of a society. They have to resonate with their target audience otherwise they fail. There will be exceptions that turn expected norms on their head for comedic or dramatic effect but for the most part they are accurate.

If we look back at films or advertisements from the 1930s or 1940s they tell us a lot about the society that produced them. They don't have to be documentaries to show us the attitudes and norms of the time.

Films from the 60s, 70s or 80s tell us a lot about how people dressed, talked, what was socially acceptable and what wasn't. It's impossible to ignore the world around you. Media shapes culture and culture shapes media.

kerley - Member

Nope, not what I was saying either. What I am saying is that the hard time a white person is having is very unlikely to be caused by the fact they are white.

Okay, so all you are saying is that you can take a group of people and make a bunch of assumptions based on their skin colour.

Have to say that making ends meet while still having what is called a life has occupied my mind far more through my adult life than any concerns about what place masculinity plays in modern society.
Basically I've come up short on the number of ***** I need to not give on the matter.

You personally may not have had to worry about it as such - as it seems you are carrying out the very masculine role of being the provider (making ends meet). There are still plenty who do feel uncertain of their role as a male in modern society.

It's an intereating social phenomenon. I see it partly symbolised by the upsurge in male grooming products & the way accessorising is now part of the male wardrobe.

Personally, neither are for me. But pick up GQ et al & look at all the ads for skincare & cufflinjs if you want proof.

There's barely any difference between that mag & Vogue..

His opinion was he has no opinion.

Wrong.

And how about you? Do you have anything remotely constructive to add or is that the limit of your intellect?

Oh, you're questioning my intellect. At least you didn't question my masculinity, that would have been devastating daaaaarling.

Okay, so all you are saying is that you can take a group of people and make a bunch of assumptions based on their skin colour.

Oh, you're questioning my intellect. At least you didn't question my masculinity, that would have been devastating daaaaarling.

No dear I"m questioning your validity and contribution to society. Have you got anything useful to contribute, a reasoned argument or some useful insight on this topic?

What I am saying is that the hard time a white person is having is very unlikely to be caused by the fact they are white.

I think this is almost certainly true but it fails to acknowldedge the myriad of other ways by which people experience discrimination.

Peple of colour and female gender do not have the monopoly on having a hard time in life.

Apart from I didn't imply any of that. People get depressed for all sort of reasons and from all backgrounds and statuses, I don't think masculinity in 2017 is one of the key ones...

I've posted this before but I'd really recommend watching this documentary. "Indoctrination" in "being a man" starts at a very early age by society and peers. Pressure to conform, whilst I doubt most boys realise it, is extremely strong.

Ever wondered why men die at a younger age than women? Have more heart attacks and stress related illnesses? That has alot to do with being the masculine provider and it kills men. So I'd argue that masculinity in 2017 can have some damaging affects.

You personally may not have had to worry about it as such - as it seems you are carrying out the very masculine role of being the provider (making ends meet). There are still plenty who do feel uncertain of their role as a male in modern society.

One of my life's good fortunes has been hooking up with a really lovely lady who is career driven. Meaning I consequently get a nice standard of living for not much effort. I have no feelings of uncertainty of my role in society and no concerns about my sense of masculinity. I suspect this is down to not seeing gender as a relevant factor in who is the/a breadwinner. Being a lazy gobshite probably factors in quite strongly as well.

Ever wondered why men die at a younger age than women?

I suggest typing variants on that question into Google. The are lots of geographical variations and that helps identify the main culprits. Just one example: three times as many men drink themselves to death as women in France and Sweden. That's the ones who haven't already killed themselves doing stupid things when drunk.

I suspect this is down to not seeing gender as a relevant factor in who is the/a breadwinner

More power to you.

Indeed, if more saw gender as a less relevant factor in defining who did what then a lot of societies problems would vanish.

Just one example: three times as many men drink themselves to death as women in France and Sweden. That's the ones who haven't already killed themselves doing stupid things when drunk.

But is that down to an inherent unhappiness or, for that matter, the social conditioning as "real men" as being drinking, smoking, fighting demi-gods? 🙂

I don't agree. Media and marketing are designed around the archetypes of a society. They have to resonate with their target audience otherwise they fail. There will be exceptions that turn expected norms on their head for comedic or dramatic effect but for the most part they are accurate.

But you can ignore marketing. Granted, some people probably can't, but I've never bought something because I feel it spoke to my manliness (whatever that is).

I suspect this is down to not seeing gender as a relevant factor

Sorry for only partially quoting but this pretty much sums it up for me. Just be the person you want to be regardless of gender. As long as you're not hurting anyone just crack on and live your life. Bollocks to how society perceives you. Life is much too short for that

...Just one example: three times as many men drink themselves to death as women in France and Sweden. That's the ones who haven't already killed themselves doing stupid things when drunk... ...real men" as being drinking, smoking, fighting demi-gods?

I'm of Nordic descent but managed to give all that up whilst on the train back south after a long weekend in York.

But you can ignore marketing. Granted, some people probably can't, but I've never bought something because I feel it spoke to my manliness (whatever that is).

Sorry for only partially quoting but this pretty much sums it up for me. Just be the person you want to be regardless of gender. As long as you're not hurting anyone just crack on and live your life. Bollocks to how society perceives you.Life is much too short for that

I think, though, the question being asked is whether you are "living your life" according to norms set down by society that you unwittingly pander to. It starts as an infant with many parents selecting blue for boys, pink for girls. Sure, people do break that mould but just look around you and see how many people conform to a relatively narrow view of what feminine and masculine mean. When was the last time you wore a dress to work; on hot days I bet it's better than trousers 😉

When was the last time you wore a dress to work; on hot days I bet it's better than trousers

Strikes me that to have a precise universal definition for something, being able to pigeonhole, to assign right and wrong, true and false, with no grey areas, uncertainty and to have empirical evidence is a very male trait.

This forum for example.

Look at the sheer volume of threads that discuss or pose questions such as homeopathy, religion, spiritualism are concerned and immediately, the detractors are....?

Does masculinity mean certainty about stuff? A measure of ones grasp and control of their environment? Does this fear of the unknown lead to narrow mindedness? Dogmatic intransigence to accept anything other than ' if I can see it, smell it, touch it, then it's real, if not it's bollox? IME, the majority of men express their fears in this way, especially here. I feel sorry for their spouses.

No dear I"m questioning your validity and contribution to society.

Maybe start a different thread once your man-period has finished.

Have you got anything useful to contribute

I contributed an opinion earlier in the thread don't ya know.

Are you on your man-period?

Just be the person you want to be regardless of gender. As long as you're not hurting anyone just crack on and live your life. Bollocks to how society perceives you. Life is much too short for that

That's pretty much my view on things, constantly worrying about how you measure up in society and how other people see you will just end up making you unhappy.

No dear I"m questioning your validity and contribution to society

😯 Based on a couple of probably not to serious posts on the internet, are you actually being serious?

Dogmatic intransigence to accept anything other than ' if I can see it, smell it, touch it, then it's real, if not it's bollox

A valid point.