Anyone else been watching this? I'm absolutely gutted by the amount of stereotyping the 7 year olds are doing to themselves. The girls particularly seem to be giving themselves such a raw deal. Sad as I thought things would have come along further since the 80`s when I was at school and was frustrated at being made to wear a skirt to school and not being allowed to play football or cricket because they were boys sports.
Here's hoping programmes like this will help set small changes in motion.
Interesting program.
I have two girls, 6 and 7. We are quite aware of the gender stereotyping and try to limit the amount of pink in the house. Try telling that to most of the other parents at the school and most of our families though!
I can't fault their school or their teachers.
Are you a boy that used to wear a skirt to school, or a girl posting on this forum? Can't decide which is more likely...
Not seen the programme yet, but as a father of two young girls I see it every day 🙁
I was just listening to a mum the other day lamenting that she is constantly doing the washing because her boys play in the dirt and how she wishes for a nice clean little girl. 🙄
My two are very much encouraged to get dirty. Running, jumping, climbing trees, all that good stuff.
But I do regularly still have to challenge my own gender bias by asking myself questions like [i]"Would you tell them off for this if they were boys?"[/i]
I haven't watched this but would tend to agree that there should be equal opportunities for either sexes to indulge in atypical gender specific activities. I'm 62 this year and have witnessed some incredible advances for women in even my relatively short lifetime.
For instance, when I started cycling seriously as a sport over 30 years ago it was very rare that you saw a woman on the few sportives that were around. Nowdays there are myriads of them riding and they are not hanging about either which is great!
I do think you also have to be careful though to respect the wishes and inclinations of the indivudual though, whatever sex. There are still natural instincts associated with each sex and I'm not sure if it would be advisible or even desirable to try and subjugate them like some would have you do. Only time will tell I guess.
I'm not sure if it would be advisible or even desirable to try and subjugate them like some would have you do.
Heh - quite right, too. Except maybe I don’t think I mean what you mean...
Rachel
Heh - quite right, too. Except maybe I don’t think I mean what you mean...Rachel
I'm talking about not subjugating the natural instincts of each sex not the actual individuals. 😀
I'm talking about not subjugating the natural instincts of each sex
I think the aim (as I see it) isn't to suppress any natural gender instincts - it's just to let them know that they can be whatever they want to be.
It's about freedom, not suppression.
I think the question is to explore whether their are natural gender instincts or whether their are culturally imposed/learned gender differences.
I think the aim (as I see it) isn't to suppress any natural gender instincts - it's just to let them know that they can be whatever they want to be.It's about freedom, not suppression.
I agree but I have read there are those who are taking things a bit too far in an effort to prove they are gender neutral parents. Young children very often have no say in the matter and have to suffer the consequences of the parents effectively using them as guinea pigs in a social experiment.
What is taking things too far? Can you give a concrete example?
Well there was the recent case of the Canadian couple who were fighting to avoid having a gender on their baby's birth certificate.
That seems a little bit much to me. That genetic gender is an identifying feature of that individual, recorded on an important state identity document. It's just a biological fact. It may not match the gender they adopt in later life, but that's okay isn't it?
(I suspect your feelings on this may be stronger than mine Rachel)
Amongst all the worries and concerns patents may have about bringing children up I honestly think this is a pretty low concern over all.
Many patents would love the luxury of only laying awake at night worrying if they are being gender neutral enough.
Don't forget, boys and girls ARE actually different and trying to make them the same is quite wrong.
Are they? How do you know that? Are they different because of inherent traits or through exposure to external influence?
I'd agree with Dan. ^^
Though I disagree with the idea that 'girls aren't as good or can't be as good', i have the promote the idea the sexes ARE different!
Both in genotype and phenotype....
Men are stronger and more angry (generally) - we've evolved that way.
Women have more of a home maker instinct (generally)..now, completely NOT wanting to be sexist with these statements, but it's kinda true.
It's almost like saying 'women should be able to grow beards..lets let them'... bar a few hormonal imbalances, women simply can't grow beards.
I know this is a difficult subject, and PLEASE don't think I'm a misogynistic tool... but women and men look different, behave differently, and are different!
I hope they are all given equal opportunities, but at times, one sex IS better and more natural at a certain task...
Hmmm..
Flame me away 😉
DrP
Well there was the recent case of the Canadian couple who were fighting to avoid having a gender on their baby's birth certificate.
Well, really they were fighting to avoid having a sex on the birth certificate. Sex is not gender. Confusing those two is what leads to a lot of the problems.
DrP - there are physical and genetic differences between men and women. I don't think there's any evidence that those differences extend to the brain - the differences in behaviour are pretty much all down to nurture not nature, especially in the early years.
Doctor p.Have you seen the programme though I think if you did you would be sad for some of the girls. It's not about making everyone the same and actually a lot of what you think is biological is actually not. Boys and girls brains are the same at that age but even as tiny babies boys and girls are played with and spoken to differently. Please watch it's well done with a scientific basis.
Big thing here in Sweden. There is a pronoun when you don't want to say he ( han) or she (hon) you use hen. Friends are making up new names for their children that are gender neutral.
Personally I support it, my son or daughter can do or be whatever they want.
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Don't forget, boys and girls ARE actually different and trying to make them the same is quite wrong.
They're not always as different as you might think and trying to stereotype them is also wrong. I actually think that stereotyping went worse in some ways, In the past 20 years. I was a kid in the 1970s and preferred my train set, cars, riding my bike and getting muddy. I did have dolls and shit but I didn't like them. No, I didn't have any brothers, just a younger sister.
There was definitely no pink obsession like there is now. I think I would have been very unhappy if I'd had Disney princesses, glitter, pink and Barbie dolls forced on me!
Not seen the programme but would like to. I consider myself a fairly progressive parent so was upset the other day to hear my six year old daughter refer to boys' sports and boys' colours 🙁
Even I would be unhappy to have the pink glitter forced on me!
Rachel
I think the question is to explore whether their are natural gender instincts or whether their are culturally imposed/learned gender differences.
the differences in behaviour are pretty much all down to nurture not nature, especially in the early years.
There are a few things wrong with these suppositions.
First lets address the issue of brain structure and put aside for one moment the fact that we don't know anything like enough about the true workings, structures and functionings of it to really know if there are or aren't differences.
If indeed there aren't differences, what then causes the very apparent physiological differences between men and women? That surely cannot be down to nurture. Obviously.
Second, assuming there is an argument to be made between nurture versus nature, it is impossible to seaparte them to the point that they are more or less the same thing.
Think of it like this:
Nurture = culture, culture = societeal behaviours, norms, values, artistic expressions etc, that set of things = the product of behaviour, behaviour is a function of the personality and ultimately your DNA.
You can't separate them. You're DNA creates a set of parameters within which your natrual behavioural proclivities will be expressed. These parameters are relatively fixed; there is very little change over time (all the studies support this) but you do see with maturity, the ability to expand the parameters beyond what you were born with. This is a good example of learnt rather than innate behaviour.
Since the data also suggests that there are small but very significant differences between the personalities of men and women (women tend to score higher on agreeableness and neuroticism, men on conscientousness and lower on agreeableness; look those terms up before you comment on them as they don't mean what you might think), our culture reflects this and becomes a feedback mechanism.
It becomes very difficult to separate the two in any meaningful way, which in this instance is to try and isolate cause and effect.
Of course the key to this conundrum is to over ride your innate behaviours and choosd to behave a different way. Behaviour is not personality and while it might be an expression of this, you do still have some choice about what you choose to express. If you go too far with that supression, you will almost certainly end up clinically depressed though but that's a separate thread.
They're not always as different as you might think and trying to stereotype them is also wrong. I
This though is far more relevant and important than the differences. Men and women are far more alike than they are different.
One thing we are guilty of as a society is polarising ourselves along gender lines and making far more of the differences than we should.
This is squarely in the camp if 'nurture' even if it does have a biological cause (which it might or might not). It is interesting that we do this but the evidence is that humans tend to accentuate, even look for, the differences between us and then exagerate them. We see this with all characteristics such as race, sexuality, personality etc.
The position of the experts involved in the program is that pre puberty, they really aren't that different at all, but WE, as society, make them different. It's an interesting and compelling argument, and quite tragic for the girls. 7 year old girls already internalising the 'fact' that boys are better leaders, stronger, cleverer etc; FFS 😡boys and girls ARE actually different
I'm with Dan on this one. As a parent of 21+ years, of a boy and 2 girls; anyone who thinks they are inherently the same is nuts.
That said, the core level of stereotyping is abhorrent. For example; why do girls' school shoes predominantly all have heels? Girls like to run around as much as boys.
he position of the experts involved in the program is that pre puberty, they really aren't that different at all, but WE, as society, make them different.
That's only a hypothesis. You cannot conclude that any lack of observable behavioural difference at one point means that any future difference can only be attributable to cultural effects. You can only suggest this and then test for it.
Which by the way has been done and it seems that the small but important differences in personality and behaviour are indeed innate.
Again, they are only small. We are vastly more alike than we are different.
Men and women develop in vastly different ways after puberty - does that mean that this must also be nurture?
Men are stronger and more angry (generally) - we've evolved that way.
One of the issues addressed in the programme was that pretty much from birth boys are taught that tough guys don't cry and should suppress emotions. This leads to them expressing themselves through the only emotion acceptable to a boy which is anger.
Teach them to have a more nurturing and caring side with dolls and soft toys rather than guns and swords and you end up with much less angry, more empathetic boys.
At the age of 7 I had a female teacher who hated boys and would counter emotion with shouting and sarcastic comments. In comparison if a girl got emotional she was hugged and comforted.
I ended up being a very angry and emotionally repressed child and it took me years to develop away from that. I guess many boys grew up the same way and are still angry now.
7 year old girls already internalising the 'fact' that boys are better leaders, stronger, cleverer etc; FFS
My own 7 year old daughter has sadly said things like "Boys are better than girls" since she was six. This is not something she got from me and is something I try to drum out of her.
Currently reading the excellent "Bedtime Stories for Rebel Girls" to her every night. She loves it.
For example; why do girls' school shoes predominantly all have heels?
Or in the recent Clarks example, the girl's shoe was called "Dolly Babe" and the boy's shoe was called "Leader" 👿
I'm with Dan on this one. As a parent of 21+ years, of a boy and 2 girls; anyone who thinks they are inherently the same is nuts.That said, the core level of stereotyping is abhorrent. For example; why do girls' school shoes predominantly all have heels? Girls like to run around as much as boys.
Our kids, boy and girl, are wired very very differently. They've been given the same opportunities but they approach life from a very different angle. Given even a gender neutral toy like lego the boy loves the building and breaking, the girl loves building it to.see how she can play with it and how the figures will interact with it. I'd say we've done a good job in that we've ended job with a boy whonisnt afraid to sing and dance (sometimes halfway through a rugby match) and a girl whonwill go straight from Ballet to the BMX track.
Absolutely, but it's a compelling one, and it fits with my experience as a parent and an adult who has long been interested in gender inequality.That's only a hypothesis.
The differences emphasised [i](at age 7!)[/i] by the programme were NOT small however. And they rang true.Again, they are only small. We are vastly more alike than we are different.
Obviously not. This is about prepuberty. However, character traits and internal belief and understanding of how the world works will have been largely formed PRE puberty.Men and women develop in vastly different ways after puberty - does that mean that this must also be nurture?
My own 7 year old daughter has sadly said things like "Boys are better than girls" since she was six.
I was quite happy when my daughter came home singing "girls win / boys go in the bin." Less happy when my wife was still singing it six hours later.
Absolutely, but it's a compelling one, and it fits with my experience as a parent and an adult who has long been interested in gender inequality.
As a parent myself I can empathise with this experience but as evidence to support a hypothesis its irrelevant and meaningless.
The differences emphasised (at age 7!) by the programme were NOT small however.
OK but then this is just a TV programme. As a means of representing and understanding the world, it's as irrelevant as our individual experiences. It offers zero value as data and only serves as entertainment to reflect the editors view of the world.
I'm not saying that the differences don't exist because clearly they do. It's just that we have to realise that this programme was broadcast with a conclusion already in mind that preculded all other possibilities. That makes it worthless for anything other than entertainmet.
Obviously not. This is about prepuberty. However, character traits and internal belief and understanding of how the world works will have been largely formed PRE puberty.
Not for one second would I dismiss the critical nature of childhood experiences and how these impact your life (heck I'm speaking from painful personal experience here) but that is not the same thing as saying that all of who we are is determined by puberty. Quite apart from anything else, the data shows a clear change in people's view of the world as we get older. That changes radically based on experience and is why our personality expression can increase in range.
It is true to say that a lot of what makes us, us, is innate though and relatively fixed from before pubverty and so won't change much. But then that brings us back to nature not nurture.
Very mixed feelings on this, particularly as i have a daughter (11) that has seen both the good and the bad side of it.
She's a real 'tomboy' (and i use that term carefully as even that is stereotyping) in that she has always been interested in what i guess we are trying to avoid labelling as boy stuff, like sport, and nerf gun parties and ....
She's also the kindest, most caring kid you could hope to meet, shows incredible sensitivity to others.
There are undoubtedly challenges and stereotypes to overcome still, but you know what - I don't think there's a better time to be a girl growing up than now. Because as i tell her, she can do everything a 'boy' can (i don't use the grow a beard example yet, I have banned her from weeing standing up though) and at the same time if she wants to also do 'girl' stuff then no-one will bat an eyelid.
Frighteningly; the only people who seem to struggle with the concept currently are her (male) peer group at school, and discussing with teachers who have been absolutely brilliant even that's a moot point. She's usually last to be picked for lunchtime football for example - and while the immediate impulse is it's because she's a girl, and the boys don't want girls playing football, having watched and observed her teacher doesn't think it is that....it's because as they've got bigger and stronger and reached that point where physical power starts to deviate, she's picked last because she is the 'weakest' person there. Which is cruel in a different way, if you want to see it that way (and maybe in time as the boys emotional sensitivity grows may reverse), but in a way is total acceptance in that they make no allowances for her sex, and judge her only on capability.
She's also the kindest, most caring kid you could hope to meet, shows incredible sensitivity to others.
Case in point. Women overall score higher on agreeableness than men.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreeableness ]Agreeableness Definitino[/url]
women simply can't grow beards
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i think there are a lot of people here that really should watch the programme!
honestly, it's actually very good.
there was a good experiment last week where they dressed some babies in gender-opposite clothes and some random adults played with them. Adults who thought they were playing with girls tended to pick up pink toys and dollies, while adults who thought they were playing with boys were more likely to be hands on, pick them up and put them on the big tractor etc.
The adults were surprised afterwards when they discovered that Sophie was in fact Joshua, and they had been picking gendered toys without really thinking about it. None of them would have thought they were 'perpetuating gender stereotypes' but were vaguely embarrassed to think that they were subconsciously doing it.
Funnily enough I always think of a post on here (not long ago - we did this recently!) where someone who was arguing strongly that gender differences are mostly innate, and used the example of their own young children: his wife had tried to get the son involved in baking cakes, and he had tried to get his daughter interested in the relative merits of 27.5 vs 29 or whatever, but to no avail. But he didn't acknowledge that growing up in a house where 'the cake person' was female, and 'the bikes and cars person' was male, might influence a child's opinion on what men and women do.
Not directly related to the programme but...
I was at the dentist's earlier this year, in the waiting room, and there was a dad there with his youngish (7 or 8-ish) daughter. He was doing all the gender stereotyping stuff, like boys' colours and girls' colours, that sort of shit. Who knew that black is a boys colour? Not me. It fair made my piss boil but how the hell do you even begin to think about the possibility of educating that sort of stupidity out of someone?
Our kids, boy and girl, are wired very very differently.
That's your personal experience and I don't doubt you, but my sister and I (two girls) were always wired differently.
As a parent of 21+ years, of a boy and 2 girls; anyone who thinks they are inherently the same is nuts.
And as a parent of 20 years and a woman of 49 years.....although I'm not saying boys and girls are "inherently the same", there is a sliding scale and we are not as different as you may think.
Anyone listened to the Infinite Monkey Cage episode on the difference between men and women? There's very little evidence for a significant difference in brains.
Our kids, boy and girl, are wired very very differently.
My kids, girl and girl, are wired very very differently.
There's very little evidence for a significant difference in brains.
Yeah, but we also share 99% of our DNA with chimps... You don't need much of a physical difference for there to be a clear visible difference.
There's very little evidence for a significant difference in brains.
And yet we still develop differently. Go figure.
My kids, a boy and a boy, are wired very differently.
there was a good experiment last week where they dressed some babies in gender-opposite clothes and some random adults played with them
Supporters of the (fallacious) nature over nurture argument claim that boys 'automatically' make a beeline for cars and ride-on toys (the kind of toys which positively affect brain development) whereas girls choose to play with dolls, very interesting to see just how much a child's 'choice' of toy is actually determined by the prejudices of their carer
Supporters of the (fallacious) nature over nurture argument claim that boys 'automatically' make a beeline for cars and ride-on toys (the kind of toys which positively affect brain development) whereas girls choose to play with dolls, very interesting to see just how much a child's 'choice' of toy is actually determined by the prejudices of their carer
OK but so what; why is that difference important?
there was a good experiment last week where they dressed some babies in gender-opposite clothes and some random adults played with them
Yeah I saw that, it was an excellent example.
It also highlights the problem. Even if you as a parent try to avoid gender stereotyping at every turn (which is difficult enough), other people will do it for you, usually without even meaning to.
OK but so what; why is that difference important?
Good question. Why do girls need to play with tractors, what use is that going to be later in life when they're in the kitchen squeezing out babies?
OK but so what; why is that difference important?
Eh?
Because it is telling children, from a very young age, [i]"You are female, you should look after babies. You are male, you should drive trucks and like engines."[/i]
Worse still it is telling them [i]"Boys don't look after babies. Girls don't like trucks"[/i]
Because it affects their later life-choices. It means either they self-avoid things like engineering or others do it to them because they assume women "don't like it". Yes, there are some obvious physical differences between men and women but their ability to make bridges/cars/websites isn't one of them.
Rachel
It also highlights the problem. Even if you as a parent try to avoid gender stereotyping at every turn (which is difficult enough), other people will do it for you, usually without even meaning to.
Again, so what? I completely agree that society treats men and women differently but so what?
I'll offer an possible explanation. It's ineffecient. Not all men and not all women will align well with the general differences we see in aspirations, desires, motivations and behaviours. But the less society is willing to accept these deviations from the norm, the more restricted those individuals will be in their choices. And where they do make different choices, they are more likely to experience conflict.
That will inhibit otheres from making different choices and that's less effecient than everyone playing to their strengths.
It is a symmetrical problem.
However, what is also ineffecient is assuming that there are no differences and therefore the outcome of life choices should be the same. We shouldn't expect a completely equal outcome of choice; we should be OK with there being differences.
When I came out as trans, somebody actually asked me if I would be getting rid of the bikes - in their mind, they were clearly "unfeminine". That's [b]exactly[/b] the type of stupid preconceptions that are wired into peoples brains by messages they are exposed to at an early age.
Rachel (who has ore bikes than ever, including loud ones)
Arrrgh - for goodness sakes geetee72 - "so what?" Really???? You actually don't care that half the population of the World is being told how to behave? "So what"???
10 pages*.
2 bannings.
*Especially when all the women start yapping away like they do.
When I came out as trans, somebody actually asked me if I would be getting rid of the bikes - in their mind, they were clearly "unfeminine".
That's not good. Did you then get rid of the bikes or did you just dismiss that comment for the idiocy it clearly was (interestingly my best friend has had nothing but incredible support since she came out as trans and that include everyone in the private equity community that she works in. I am hopeful that we've turned a corner with such mindless attitudes as you've encountered but there will always be people in the world who are less inclined to be nice).
Arrrgh - for goodness sakes geetee72 - "so what?" Really???? You actually don't care that half the population of the World is being told how to behave? "So what"???
No of course I care and i offered the explanation below my challenge.
My challenge is genuine - it's about developing the argument rather than just making bland statements and then expecting those to be enough to carry the day.
You actually don't care that half the population of the World is being told how to behave?
Only half?
Because it is telling children, from a very young age, "You are female, you should look after babies. You are male, you should drive trucks and like engines."
And because the type of toys that kids get to play with affects how their brains develop
Did you then get rid of the bikes
Kept them but put a basket on the front and painted them pink, surely 😉
My kids, a girl and a girl, are wired very differently.
My kids, a boy and a boy, are wired very differently.
Thank-you! The point should be we are all individuals, somewhere on a multi-dimensional distribution or spectrum of physical characteristics and behaviors. The whole 'men are physically stronger than women' is such a poor over-simplification on so many levels. Guess what, 'women are better at maths than men'. But on an individual level, it is meaningless.
OK but so what; why is that difference important?
I'll bite. In terms of the science - you can't devise an unbiased experiment. All children will have developed their social skills within their home environment and social circles so no test will be able to fully differentiate nature and nurture. In terms of the children - the examples given from the TV show alone speak volumes about how the girls in particular view themselves, even at that age. And in terms of societal benefit - I don't agree with continuing the prejudice with statements like 'women are more sensitive so we need more female leaders to change the dynamics of our institutions'. I think that is absolute bollocks. I do however believe that differing and challenging viewpoints generally leads to improvements in practices or new ideas or different ways of thinking about a problem, which is apparently called 'innovation' and apparently that is going to save our economy!
Of course, there are sections of society (men and women) who are socially conservative; who are happy with the status quo, which in the UK remains a male dominated/superior societal structure, though not as extreme as some other parts of the world. And they have every right to that viewpoint.
Arrrgh - for goodness sakes geetee72 - "so what?" Really???? You actually don't care that half the population of the World is being told how to behave? "So what"???
It's worse than that, 100% of the population of the world is being told how to behave, and to the demonstrable disadvantage of half of them.
"So what?" is worth promoting if you're on one of those sides. Guess which.
*Especially when all the women start yapping away like they do.
Coffee. Monitor. 😆
My challenge is genuine - it's about developing the argument rather than just making bland statements and then expecting those to be enough to carry the day.
I'm surprised it [i]needs[/i] challenge.
Would the statement "society treats black and white people differently" need a "so what?"
We shouldn't expect a completely equal outcome of choice;
Why?
we should be OK with there being differences.
I'm fine with there being biological differences between women and men.
Those exist.
But it has very little do with young girl feeling she shouldn't play football because that's "for boys", or a young boy feeling ashamed that he likes playing with dolls. Those pressures are societal, learned and unhelpful.
There's very little evidence for a significant difference in brains.
And yet we still develop differently. Go figure.
We develop differently in terms of reproductive abilities according to our hormones. That doesn't mean our brains work differently. Go figure yourself!
We are quite aware of the gender stereotyping and try to limit the amount of pink in the house.
Why on earth would you do that? All that achieves is to bring awareness of stereotyping to your children. Just let them wear what they want to wear (ie, take them shopping and let them choose) and don't discourage any decisions they make. If they want to wear all pink then so be it.
I have two girls (just turned eight) and they now choose almost all their own clothes themselves. They have pink (shock), but they also have cute rabbits, sparkly tops, black (one daughter likes to sometimes dress from top to toe in black but the next day she'll be in cutesy pink), faux leather jackets, pretty dresses, dungarees and whatever else. I really don't see why a parent should interfere and try to discourage or encourage any particular choice a child wishes to make one way or the other.
I'll offer an possible explanation. It's inefficient. Not all men and not all women will align well with the general differences we see in aspirations, desires, motivations and behaviours. But the less society is willing to accept these deviations from the norm, the more restricted those individuals will be in their choices. And where they do make different choices, they are more likely to experience conflict.
I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting, sorry. Firstly, even if the societal norm is opposed to what an individual chooses to do, I don't think that automatically restricts that individual? And I also don't agree that it would automatically lead to conflict. You are implying that having a strict superior-inferior arrangement where 'boys don't cry' and 'girls look pretty' society is more 'efficient'? Surely the opposing view, that the societal norm should be to treat everyone as an individual, is a better way of reducing 'conflict'?
We were having a conversation in the staffroom today talking about how being a teacher has made us (without excepting, including Corbyn voters) believe that many stereotypes are completely correct and whilst boys and girls vary across a huge spectrum, they tend to fall into groups of good at things, bad at things etc. That doesn't mean we wouldn't fully encourage and support any child of either sex in any subject but girls and boys think and learn in different ways.
We spoke about twins who were both summer born and the girl is significantly more mature than the boy. The boy would have massively benefitted from starting school 'a year behind'. The girl, barely. Again, common behaviour. Summer-born boys tend to struggle.
There are differences between the sexes. It strikes me that with the acknowledgement of many physical differences, it's simplistic and illogical to suggest that brains must be absolutely identical in every way.
Boys tend to have better spacial awareness and this benefits them in subjects like engineering. They tend to perform better under pressure or in different types of subjects. Speaking to the Head of Science, average boys do Physics as they learn a handful of formulas and can use them appropriately, average girls do biology as a conscientious student can learn the info. Smart children do chemistry but boys can visualise a lot of it more easily although girls outperform them in coursework.
To my mind, the 'mosaic brain' makes sense and matches with my experience. There are boy traits and girl traits. Boys tend to have more boy traits and vice versa. Although there is enormous overlap, there tend to be differences in the sexes.
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allthegear / Rachel with the loud bikes
(please ignore me if the questions are inappropriate)
Firstly, I would completely agree with you re. how stupid it is that some things like bikes are masculine or cooking feminine.
As a trans person though, what is feminine? If you said 'wearing pink and having nice nails' then you clearly aren't the person I imagine. From what I know, it's different to sexuality as you can be a trans-lesbian or trans-homosexual or trans-straight etc.* So, if it isn't down to the sex of the person / people you fancy and it isn't down to whether you have a pink or blue mtb or like Barbies or sharks, what is it?
As a trans person, don't you [u]have[/u] to acknowledge that you believe in innate differences otherwise you're just 'a person'.
*excuse my terminology - I'm desperately trying to be inoffensive
It's an outrage - I'm still unhappy with my mum for buying me, no pushing on me, all those cheap heavy blue bikes as a kid, when deep down all I wanted was gender neutral naked carbon like Hope's latest machine.
I Hope all get to play with any toy, sport or bike they like and don't suffer my misfortune 🙂
Boys tend to have better spacial awareness and this benefits them in subjects like engineering.
Is this innate, or because they were pushed towards playing with Lego as a kid? Despite being underrepresented overall, half of my highest-performing physics students are female*.
*my best performing is non-binary, so my best performing student is neither male nor female.
makecoldplayhistory - no, you worded things just fine 🙂
No, I'd very much not describe myself as "wearing pink and having nice nails". Takes something big to get me in a dress, for example. Yesterday, the hairdresser had the clippers out and I'm currently loving that feeling of spiky blonde hair on the back of my head. Might be blue very soon... 😀
It does lead to some hard questions about what defines us, though. I've not gone through all I have just to dress fancy. I can see with my own eyes every day the injustices women put up with in the IT industry. I certainly didn't do it for that! Yet I *had* to deal with it. I'm not a feminine man; I'm a woman. There's a difference.
Gender Identity isn't the same as sexuality, that's true.
Even if I had been born female, I'd be the same person I am now (fewer scars possibly?) - maybe that is key?
Rachel
As a trans person, don't you have to acknowledge that you believe in innate differences otherwise you're just 'a person'.
I was just rolling round the same notion. Boys and girls being genetically different at some level has to be a truism surely, or we wouldn't have trans people.
The danger comes when we pigeonhole people because of that. Perhaps speaking very broadly girls do tend to be better at some things and boys tend to be better at others, but the operative word here is "tend." There's absolutely no reason why an individual boy or girl cannot buck that trend, but from an incredibly young age society is brainwashing them into not doing that and instead forcing them to conform to the stereotype.
If a girl wants to play with dollies then that's fine, but if she wants to play with toy rocketships that should be fine too, and we really should be making every effort to expose them to both. Similarly, telling boys to repress their emotions is not great.
Boys tend to have better spacial awareness and this benefits them in subjects like engineering.
How many of those boys with "natural" spatial awareness were given building blocks and Lego to play with while their sisters were given dolls?
By the time they are school age they have already spent four/five years, their entire existence in fact, being programmed with gender stereotypes and being instructed to develop different sets of skills.
That's what makes separating the nature/nurture thing so tricky.
One thing's for sure...you can still see the SAME people on here getting hot under the collar about how horrible normal life is when it comes to any topic vaguely related to gender, equality, titties or balls.
I don't think STW provides a national average sample of women though.
There's a big of a difference between wanting to play with the dollies and wondering what the hell this thing is sticking out of your body!
(trying to simplify as far as possible)
+1 here.My kids, girl and girl, are wired very very differently.
One thing's for sure...you can still see the SAME people on here getting hot under the collar about how horrible normal life is when it comes to any topic vaguely related to gender, equality, titties or balls.
Some people blindly accept the norm. Some people would rather change it.
You seem to suggest that is a bad thing?
Don't forget, boys and girls ARE actually different and trying to make them the same is quite wrong.
One thing's for sure...you can still see the SAME people on here getting hot under the collar about how horrible normal life is when it comes to any topic vaguely related to gender, equality, titties or balls.I don't think STW provides a national average sample of women though.
You've made two contributions, neither constructive. Well done.
I watched some of the programme but couldn't watch it all as it seemed to be hugely contrived - the presenter saying things to fit his agenda, leading parents to conclusions and then picking soundbites from them that appeared semi-scripted also to fit his agenda.
I really don't like "consumer-science" shows.
I watched with my wife who is a teacher, a parent, and in the interests of full disclosure a lady.
We have different views about imposing gender traits onto our children (boy and girl), those views aren't that extreme though and are right and left of the middle. We did however agree that this programme was BS.
My 13 year old daughter could definitely take me in a fight.
Just sayin'
I don't think STW provides a national average sample of women though.
I wonder why that might be.
I'm reluctant to get involved in this, but it is worth pointing out that sex hormones have both organisational and activational effects. There are small organisational effects of sex hormones pre- and postnatally but the biggest effects are activational. These effects are very robust and well established in animals, and as far as we know, somewhat similar in humans, although experimental work is lacking for obvious reasons (so, we have to rely on evidence from 'natural experiments' e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8532819). So even if men's and women's brains are largely identical, circulating hormone levels can lead to different types of behaviour in certain contexts.
I wonder why that might be.
They're all on mumsnet?
Huge amount of point-missing in this thread.
Don't forget, boys and girls ARE actually different and trying to make them the same is quite wrong.
No. PEOPLE are different. You don't have to make them the same, of course not - no-one is suggesting that.
The point is that you should let PEOPLE do what they want and be what they want, WITHOUT bringing their gender into it. So it's perfectly fine for kids to play with dollies or tractors; but it is NOT fine for you to assume that the boys will want the tractors and the girls dollies. They may do, but you need to give them the choice!
Boys may be 80% more likely to like football or whatever, but you cannot then assume that all boys like football and all girls do not. This is absolutely crucial and it is the point. Girls might be more empathetic on average, boys might be more sporty on average, these stereotypes may be correct, but you MUST NOT then go on to treat all boys as un-empathetic and all girls as non-sporty.
Just treat people as individials, not genders.
I'm reluctant to get involved in this, but it is worth pointing out that sex hormones have both organisational and activational effects.
Again, quite possibly true, but do not assume that it is always true. Do not enforce and perpetuate gener stereotypes, let people discover themselves.
I wish i'd been born a girl.
I've been looking for butter in this fridge for an hour now.....