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basically a money issue
It's not though, is it? It's never a "money issue" when there's political urgency, a foreign war, cash for nuclear subs, helicopter money for ****less banks, there's always money — and lot's of it.
So this is a political choice, not an economic one, which is baffling to me. When Reform and the likes of Suella Braverman rubbish a policy as ineffective and immoral, then it is high time to reassess.
why do you need to be an activist to vote and have an opinion?
there’s always money — and lot’s of it
Becasue for the things you've listed will come from (whatever the govt call it ) Capital spending, one off events that needs money throwing at them, while things like child benefits needs to come from departmental spending, and that needs a budget as it's on-going.
When Reform and the likes of Suella Braverman rubbish a policy as ineffective and immoral
Putting aside the biblical scale hypocricy on display there, you can say what the hell you like from the luxurious impotence of the opposition backbenches. As the present cabinet all know full well
grandstanding cranks
Your switch from insulting Tory MPs to insulting Labour MPs is seamless binners.
there’s always money — and lot’s of it
Until you have to buy essentials in another currency and the issuer of that currency doesn't rate the stability/value of your currency.
We have a representative model of democracy where we elect local MPs to represent our interests.
Well, true in theory, but in practice most people are voting for the candidates in their capacity as representatives of a particular party. The party publishes its manifesto and voters are generally entitled to expect MPs to stick to the manifesto once they're elected.
There are, to be fair, exceptions - independent MPs and the Speaker's constituents, for example.
Blimey! This is all very civilised!
Whos this civil, self-deprecating co-operative and even quite amusing Rishi Sunak bloke? Never seen him before.
Given the party he represents, he’s trying to get himself sacked, isn’t he? There’s no way those behind him are going to put up with this
Until you have to buy essentials in another currency and the issuer of that currency doesn’t rate the stability/value of your currency.
It doesn't even have to be foreign states - it's quite easy for domestic banks, companies, and even employees that it's not worth being paid in a currency that doesn't inspire confidence.
Until you have to buy essentials in another currency and the issuer of that currency doesn’t rate the stability/value of your currency.
Example?
(Bear in mind these are all floating currencies in developed economies with central banks that are mostly in discussion. With little or no foreign debt.)
Worth looking up - balance of payments constraints.
So this is a political choice, not an economic one, which is baffling to me.
For sure.
Your switch from insulting Tory MPs to insulting Labour MPs is seamless binners
I think you’ll find that I’ve been pretty consistent in my utter contempt for the Richard Burgans of this world, who lest we forget isn’t presently a Labour MP, Ernesto
Thank god!
I think you are quite consistent in your utter contempt for anyone who expresses political opinions different to yours
Speaks volumes that Starmer and Sunak appear to be much more friendly than Starmer is with some of his own MPs. In fact the tories look somewhat pleased with their achievement of creating a Labour govt with so little ambition to change anything.
binners
Full Member
The Reform bloke was entirely predictable. I think we could all have envisaged his question, pretty much word for word
A one policy "party". Hell, if they were ever given the chance to enact that single policy, they'd invariably bugger it up anyway.
Ahem can we take all talk of Sunak and Braverman over to the correct threads please?
😉
Things have worked out well for Starmer this week, Lindsay Hoyle (friend to the government and to Israel) making a point of calling the SNP kings speech amendment on the 2 child benefit cap has allowed starmer to sideline those in his party that he didn't want elected to government - 6 month ban....he'll be gleeful with such a win so early, that's another gold star for Hoyle and one step closer to the House of Lords.
He could have called Zara Sultana’s amendment for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza (ha...yeah right!), recognising Palestinian statehood, and suspending exports licenses for arms transfers to Israel, which has backbench Labour support, as well as Plaid Cymru, the Green Party, SDLP, Alliance and Independent MPs.
If Hoyle chose Zara's amendment then Starmer would have had a much bigger problem to deal with.
There may be a touch of eye rolling in my comment above
Turned out they only had 12 months retained ....
Becasue for the things you’ve listed will come from (whatever the govt call it ) Capital spending, one off events that needs money throwing at them, while things like child benefits needs to come from departmental spending, and that needs a budget as it’s on-going.
Meanwhile, we subsidise the obscenely profitable oil and gas industry in regular budgeting:
"Fossil fuel companies were given close to £80bn" [from 2015 to 2023] in subsidies.
Removing the two-child benefit cap would cost around 3b a year, so I'm not buying that the UK somehow can't "afford" this.
He could have called Zara Sultana’s amendment for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza (ha…yeah right!), recognising Palestinian statehood, and suspending exports licenses for arms transfers to Israel, which has backbench Labour support, as well as Plaid Cymru, the Green Party, SDLP, Alliance and Independent MPs.
Didn't David Lammy just ask for an immediate ceasefire on his visit to Israel last week?
Ask?
What was the answer?
It's pretty funny that before the election there was much debate on here from the usual centrist apologists about how democracy was broken and we desperately needed electoral reform in the form of PR and other stuff to make politics more reflective of what voters want etc. But now they have their preferred flavour of govt elected using FPTP on a massive majority but fewer votes than labour got in 2019 they don't see any problem in that govt taking an uber-authoritarian, zero tolerance approach to any disagreement or dissent on something where there is broad consensus.
Funny also how Johnson received all sorts of abuse from the same people for getting rid of the tory centrists who didn't support hard brexit but now it's people they don't like apparently it's fine to do exactly the same.
Bloody hypocrites the lot of you!
but fewer votes than labour got in 2019
Er.....you know they lost in 2019, right? Bigly.
but fewer votes than labour got in 2019
Er…..you know they lost in 2019, right? Bigly.
I believe that is exactly Daz's point.
Starmer got half a million less votes than Labour did in 2019, when they lost very badly.
Daz is criticising first-past-the-post. I thought that was obvious?
Removing the two-child benefit cap would cost around 3b a year, so I’m not buying that the UK somehow can’t “afford” this.
I don't think anyone does, but it still needs to be in the department's budget, and they're arguing that 1. the exercise to see what does and doesn't get into the dept's spending budget is happening, now, and 2 the right place/time to announce this sort of stuff is the budget, once you've got a handle on all the spending commitments. Otherwise you're just making it up as you go along, and how many other 'just' £3B are just as worthy, just as desperate, just as important? I'm pretty concerned with how much money the new DoH will put into GP funding now they've recognised that primary healthcare is pretty much THE best place to fund is you want fundamental changes in the populations health, and I could make a pretty passionate argument about lives it would save, but y'know, so can dentists as tooth decay in young children is now the biggest cause of children hospital stays. Pretty vital stuff. And I don't doubt that the justice system or the prison system or any number of vital bits of infrasture that most of us aren't even aware of need funding desperately after years of austerity.
But Starmer and Sunak were polite to each other over the despatch box this afternoon thus proving that Starmer is in fact a cruel and heartless Tory and hates every single 3rd child. Funding child care immediately would be brushed aside with barely a nod by people committed to critiquing Starmer becasue of who he's not, and the very next sentence would be "But what about.?"
I think you are quite consistent in your utter contempt for anyone who expresses political opinions different to yours
My ironing meter has broken with that one.
My ironing meter has broken with that one.
Buy another one?
I think it must have been broken if it thinks that I go around calling politicians "cranks" because I don't agree with them.
This has been amusing
the two child benefit cap is abhorrent and its wrong to have not got rid of it. That much is obvious
But its not a purging of the left to suspend the whip from those who rebel against a 3 line whip. That number of rebels is not significant and does nothing bar some virtue signalling and those folk have just sidelined themselves. What have they achieved? naff all apart from giving the tory press an attack line " labour chaos"
But neither is it a win for Starmer. its a political misjudgement not to have committed to get rid of the cap, its a political misjudgement to have made it a 3 line whip. He has handed the SNP a lovely piece of propaganda, he looks foolish to have nailed his colours to the mast of an abhorrent tory policy.
A stupid needless fight and a political misjudgement.
the worst aspect of course is as a res8lt of Starmers willingness to continue with Tory austerity is that children will go hungry.
Hew is still a newb at this politics business and I think and hope he will learn from this
I find it irritating that the term centrist is now being used by some, as some sort of slur.
It's a blunt and frankly misleading way of describing the vast majority of the uk elecorate, a lazy way of 'othering' and pigeonholing anyone who's not far left.
But now they have their preferred flavour of govt elected using FPTP on a massive majority but fewer votes than labour got in 2019 they don’t see any problem in that
I have no idea where you got that notion from, it certainly wasn't from me - Labour is not my preferred flavor of government, and I still beleve PR needs to be seriously looked at...
None of the above discourse is going to change my mind on anything significant, it is however, serving to reinforce my view that some will never be happy, never be interested in consensus, and eveyone must fully agree with them, or thier views must be wrong, malevolent, invalid or all three.
I said it back in the days of Corbyn, and I'll say it again, Labour in it's contemporary manifestation are a center left party, trying to turn it into a far left party is just silly... people in that camp should really just form a new party if that's what they want, rather than just being disruptive and looking silly?
But that's not going to happen as it involves actual work and requires appealing to a larger portion of the electorate, rather than just staying in thier comfort zone making unhappy noises from the back of the class, much like some on this thread.
I find it irritating that the term centrist is now being used by some, as some sort of slur.
And I find it amusing how the term leftie is used by some as some sort of slur.
I guess that it is up to the individual to decide whether they are going to be irritated or amused.
You lot are really never going to forgive the Labour Party for winning an election are you?
I’m really struggling with your die hard “Labour til I die” approach here, come what may… You’ve witnessed the party become a centre-right party under Starmer, a “Tory-Lite” if you will… Arguably it was the only way of making the party electable in a nation increasingly influenced by far right dog whistle politics, but at what cost overall…?
How would you have felt if Jeremy Corbyn won in 2019…? You were still die hard Labour back then…
Daz is criticising first-past-the-post. I thought that was obvious?
Or more to the point I'm criticising the shameless hypocrisy of some on here who before the election were wailing about how unfair FPTP is and how we needed a more consensual and considered form of politics, yet as soon as the shoe's on the other foot they abandon all that and make excuses for a govt which uses it's unfairly elected majority to suppress any opposition or dissent. What's even worse is that Starmer could have used his majority to end the 2CBC for the benefit of millions of children but instead chose to use it to get rid of a few leftie MPs who he doesn't like.
If there's one thing FPTP enables a govt to do it's enact policy without much opposition. Instead though Starmer acts as if he is in a coalition govt where his partners are opposing what he wants to do when neither is the case.
You are ware this is the only way to actually get anything done, right?
Yes, you can't make desperately needed changes to the benefits system if you're in opposition.
but instead chose to use it to get rid of a few leftie MPs who he doesn’t like.
I doubt what they did will survive even 24hours of news cycle given what else is going on, so what did they achieve exactly?
I’m really struggling with your die hard “Labour til I die” approach here, come what may… You’ve witnessed the party become a centre-right party under Starmer, a “Tory-Lite”
Erm... no I haven't. If anyone uses the word 'Tory-light', it just guarentees that I switch off and ignore everything after that point as its clearly patent bollocks. This present incarnation of the Labour Party under Starmer is a pretty accurate representation of my centrist (booooo, hisss bastards!) viewpoint on the world, which is why I'm an active Labour party member.
How would you have felt if Jeremy Corbyn won in 2019
Yeah, like that was ever likely to happen? That's like asking me what I'd do once I set foot on the surface of the moon. Magic Grandad was an electoral liability in 2017, by 2019 he was a walking recruiting shop for the Tories. He may as well have walked around waving a huge VOTE TORY banner
but instead chose to use it to get rid of a few leftie MPs who he doesn’t like.
They got rid of themselves.