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‘Most’ humans still stay put, so why the political focus on the few that don’t? And why the focus on skin colour by the supporter of this new party? I’m asking as a “white British” born abroad. Am I part of the problem Rupert Farquaad Lowe is here to fix? Is a “black British” person, born here of British parents, who has only ever lived in one city or town, part of the problem?
Just out of interest, does this kind of ethno-linguistic Darwinism also apply to Irish and Welsh language and culture that's at risk of extinguishment by English, Scottish Gaelic that's basically dead, all the aboriginal and indigenous peoples of the US, Canada, Russia, Brazil and Australia that have been overwhelmed by outsiders moving in, etc etc...? "Just STFU and roll with it?"
reply here https://singletrackworld.com/forum/off-topic/are-you-a-native-of-this-land/paged/2/#post-13700797
Describing the idea that post war 'hyper-mobility' as the norm as a way to dismiss people's fears of mass immigration is generally wrong, and a bad argument. .
also replying about n the other thread
‘Most’ humans still stay put, so why the focus on the few that don’t?
Speed of change and numbers of folks. The availability for average Joe to move about over long distances cheaply - either legally or economically is approx 100-150 years old, and post-war hyper-mobility - ie planes; is one to two generations max. This sort of movement of these numbers of Humans is unprecedented in our history outside of mass war or plague. Add to the fact that for the last 40 years; non-mobile groups - i.e. people born working and living in the area their families have come from haven't had a good deal from neo-liberal policies that has seen employment leave, and nothing replacing it, and have fallen behind in comparisons to people who have had the opportunity to go 'somewhere else' for education or work - for whom hyper-mobility is the norm. This isn't a right/left issue, it's a 'from here' and 'from nowhere' argument.
Multiculturalism absolutely includes placing value in, and the nurturing of, languages other than English, and the diverse cultures we have here.
I heard Kemi Badenoch on Desert Island Discs recently talking about multiculturism and was very surprised to find myself agreeing with a lot of what she said. Can't remember the exact details but the gist of it was that culture isn't about skin colour, how you dress, the religion you follow or the music you listen to. Instead it was more about the way you behaved, the social norms you complied with (and yes speaking English is one of them), and most importantly the laws you abide by.
She used a trivial example of queueing. I think everyone would agree that queueing is an ingrained trait of British culture, and so we expect everyone to abide by it (apart from in pubs, bizarrely 🤷♂️), but it's not in many other parts of the world. Should we accept people coming here and pushing to the front of a queue for a bus or in the supermarket? I don't know, but I can understand why some might get annoyed by it. Scale that up to more important stuff (eg the conflict between UK and Sharia law) and that's where the problem is I think.
scapegoating immigrants because of failed government policies achieves nothing though, it just feeds racism and discrimination
I would support the death penalty for people who throw litter from car windows
Some years ago while working for the local council garden crew during the summer I had a grass cutting round of some of the local villages and I would always find a scenic place to stop and have my lunch break. One summer I had a temp guy asigned to me and we stopped in one of my usual places to eat fish and chips. When he had nearly finished eating he announced "it's ****in beautiful around here" then less than 30 seconds later rolled up his chip papers and lobbed them out the window. He really couldn't understand what I was making a fuss about when I made him go and pick em up.
This isn't a right/left issue, it's a 'from here' and 'from nowhere' argument.
Instead it was more about the way you behaved, the social norms you complied with (and yes speaking English is one of them), and most importantly the laws you abide by.
Ah, here they all come... the "citizens of nowhere" line... the suspicious of bilingual people line... the lies about immigrants wanting to force some new legal system on the rest of us... they are not on your side just because you only speak one language and were born here. Don't nod along in agreement with these politicians trying to split us into insiders and outsiders for their own political gain.
Scale that up to more important stuff (eg the conflict between UK and Sharia law) and that's where the problem is I think.
What conflict between UK and Sharia law?
Yes agreed @kimbers but partly @bilabong's argument is why aren't the people that already live here and have seen their lives get harder and harder being looked after ahead of people who've just come here? They've had money spent in their towns, the centre of town is pedestrianizsed, there's a new GP surgery built, but the money never gets to them.
Why is it that we expect the people's who's lives are the hardest to bear the burden of the folks who've come here newly and need the most support? It would feel like rubbing their faces in it, no?
argument is why aren't the people that already live here and have seen their lives get harder and harder being looked after ahead of people who've just come here?
You've missed out the word "white" there. Why? That poster isn't talking about "people that already live here", they, and the politician who's policies they espouse, explicitly talk about "white" British people.
It's fine to say "some people are just worried about immigration, it's not about race"... but when people tell you it is about being "white"... listen to them.
She used a trivial example of queueing. I think everyone would agree that queueing is an ingrained trait of British culture, and so we expect everyone to abide by it (apart from in pubs, bizarrely
), but it's not in many other parts of the world. Should we accept people coming here and pushing to the front of a queue for a bus or in the supermarket? I don't know, but I can understand why some might get annoyed by it. Scale that up to more important stuff (eg the conflict between UK and Sharia law) and that's where the problem is I think.
That is how I see 'culture'. If living within a new country you should at least be trying to adopt/fit in with the ways of the country, i.e. attitudes to women (the accepted attitude, yes I know there are a lot of ****ers who already live here and have that wrong but it is not an overarching 'cultural' issue)
Moving to an area where you can continue exactly as you did in whatever country you were raised in does not do that.
You've missed out the word "white" there. Why?
because it's not about that. I used to live in Brackley, which is home to any numbers of folks from around the world, as its home to any number of F1 teams. The controversy caused by the Lloyd's bank putting out an A-Frame advertising to Polish people in Polish caused huge upset, and that was just white folks. I used to work in a newly built GP/Dentistry surgery in East Anglia, and the name badges worn by reception team members showing what languages they spoke (mostly Eastern European at the time) caused upset, and that was just white folks.
It's change, not colours, some folks are obviously racist, of course, but most people aren't, they just see other people getting a leg up that isn't them
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because it's not about that
Read the thread. Read Billibong's accurate summary of what Rupert Lowe and his new party is offering politically. It absolutely is about "white" for that political movement and its supporters. Pretending otherwise isn't listening. It's the difference with Farage's outfit, who say out loud that it's about all immigrants regardless of skin colour, rather then incomers/locals who aren't white (even if campaign posters and what they say off camera suggested otherwise).
Of course you would make the effort to "fit in", and learn the language, etc
I would yes, but the fact that many people don't seems to me as though they are not trying to or wanting to fit in with the UK way of life.
If I moved to another country I would blend into however that country lived and expectations around it. If I wanted everything to be the same as the UK why would I not just stay in the UK.
bilabong's argument is why aren't the people that already live here and have seen their lives get harder and harder being looked after ahead of people who've just come here?
that argument is bogus. Based on simple racism not facts. Immigrants contribute more and take less in our society
You've missed out the word "white" there. Why?
because it's not about that. I used to live in Brackley, which is home to any numbers of folks from around the world, as its home to any number of F1 teams. The controversy caused by the Lloyd's bank putting out an A-Frame advertising to Polish people in Polish caused huge upset, and that was just white folks. I used to work in a newly built GP/Dentistry surgery in East Anglia, and the name badges worn by reception team members showing what languages they spoke (mostly Eastern European at the time) caused upset, and that was just white folks.
It's change, not colours, some folks are obviously racist, of course, but most people aren't, they just see other people getting a leg up that isn't them
its still racist
If I moved to another country I would blend into however that country lived and expectations around it. If I wanted everything to be the same as the UK why would I not just stay in the UK.
This "everything the same" line... that's not normally what people take with them when they move to another country... they seek to fit in and benefit from the culture they have chosen as their new home AND ALSO keep much of what they already have. Hopefully some of what they keep the host country can benefit from as well. You can become part of your adopted home without having to erase all cultural aspects from your past and your family. Well, at least you should be able to, IMHO. If I lived in France, you wouldn't be able to keep me off the galettes, but I'd still have the occasional yorkshire pudding, I suspect. I'm no chef though... I don't think I'd be spreading the joy of eating yorkshire puddings in another country.
bilabong's argument is why aren't the people that already live here and have seen their lives get harder and harder being looked after ahead of people who've just come here?
yeah this is just regurgitating nonsense proganda straight from tommy Robinson's youtube channel.
If I moved to another country I would blend into however that country lived and expectations around it.
"blend in" covers a multitude of things. Do you think you could become fluent in the language to the point where nobody notices you're a foreigner? Do you have common experiences to share with the blokes down the pub, or playing backgammon at the local cafe? If your partner was working and you were at home looking after the kids how will this "blending in" happen? Especially when you're afraid of being abused if you step out into the street.
yeah this is just regurgitating nonsense proganda straight from tommy Robinson's youtube channel.
That's not an answer to the question though. And that question; "Why are govts ignoring our needs?" is largely the reason that Labour was created. To look after the interests of the working man, who're otherwise ignored by (for want of better word) Elites in Westminster. Listen any speech by Hattersley, Benn and Kinnock or Scargill.
The controversy caused by the Lloyd's bank putting out an A-Frame advertising to Polish people in Polish caused huge upset, and that was just white folks. I used to work in a newly built GP/Dentistry surgery in East Anglia, and the name badges worn by reception team members showing what languages they spoke (mostly Eastern European at the time) caused upset, and that was just white folks.
It's change, not colours, some folks are obviously racist, of course, but most people aren't, they just see other people getting a leg up that isn't them
How is seeing an advert "getting a leg up"? Being upset about name badges sounds either racist or just daft - I'm not sure which. Maybe it's just gullible, and they are people who have bought the idea that the reason they only have few cookies is because the immigrant has taken one, rather than that the oligarch has taken a pile.
Being upset about name badges sounds either racist or just daft
One of the older ladies upset by this told me that it just reinforced her opinion that the health-centre was only built when the area starting to become popular with eastern European agricultural workers, a good portion of the reception staff being from that demographic just reinforced the idea further Her world had changed in what seemed like overnight, she wasn't asked if she was OK with it, no one sought her opinion, and when she did ask, she's accused of being racist.
Cool.
and the name badges worn by reception team members showing what languages they spoke (mostly Eastern European at the time) caused upset, and that was just white folks
Being upset about name badges sounds either racist or just daft
****ing bilinguals, looking to help people, we can't stand that. It's gone mad in Wales. ****ing Welsh. Etc.
One of the older ladies upset by this told me that it just reinforced her opinion
Opinion based on .... Reform leaflets ?
attitudes to women (the accepted attitude, yes I know there are a lot of ****ers who already live here and have that wrong but it is not an overarching 'cultural' issue)
Misogyny isn't a British cultural issue?
Opinion based on .... Reform leaflets ?
Living there. again not helped by the (for example) Romanian receptionist being able to have a relaxed and informal conversation with other Romanians, but not her, a patient of many years. This wasn't recent, this is early 2010's, Reform didn't exist.
being upset because someone has a badge saying what language they can speak.... is racist & daft
Opinion based on .... Reform leaflets ?
Living there. again not helped by the (for example) Romanian receptionist being able to have a relaxed and informal conversation with other Romanians, but not her, a patient of many years. This wasn't recent, this is early 2010's, Reform didn't exist.
the relentless racist propaganda did tho.
One of the older ladies upset by this told me that it just reinforced her opinion that the health-centre was only built when the area starting to become popular with eastern European agricultural workers, a good portion of the reception staff being from that demographic just reinforced the idea further Her world had changed in what seemed like overnight, she wasn't asked if she was OK with it, no one sought her opinion, and when she did ask, she's accused of being racist.
So, she was getting help at a health-centre which she thought wouldn't exist, or be staffed, without eastern European incomers? Was she angry about getting that help that she thought that without these incomers she wouldn't be getting? Sounds confused.
Complain when services don't keep up with population size. Complain when they do.
Complain about people not integrating. Complain when they get a job that means you have to meet them.
sorry but makes no sense to me.
immigrants get far lesssupport from tbe state than citizens
Sure, but also immigrants tend to wash up in the parts of the country that are cheap to live, and those are also the parts of the country were folks have been struggling for decades now. It's not a great leap of the imagination for those folks to be resentful. Their lives are hard, and their voices ignored, and change is pretty unwelcome.
Question: If these communities had full employment and fulfilling lives and communities and clubs and so on, would their attitudes to immigration be different d'you think?
Question: If these communities had full employment and fulfilling lives and communities and clubs and so on, would their attitudes to immigration be different d'you think?
That's the point, isn't it? They have a difficult life and something leads them blame immigrants, even though their problems are not actually the fault of immigrants.
Sounds confused
The previous two GP practices were both run-down converted houses, and need new premises, it was just co-incidental with Eastern European migration to the UK, but the locals had been campaigning for years, and it felt like they had been ignored thus far. Que large migration, oh we'll build it now...Her complaint wasn't about care it was about being ignored.
What conflict between UK and Sharia law?
Forced marriages, women's rights, corporal punishment, honour punishments etc. Also not Sharia but there's stuff like female circumcision that goes on. Yes it's not universal and most muslims (I think) abide by UK law, but there are some who observe Sharia law over UK law (I have direct experience of this) and that's where multiculturism can be questioned. Multiculturism doesn't exempt you from the laws and cultural values of the country you live in.
The major question though is how widespread instances like these are? Reform and the right wing obviously want to inflate it, while the left likes to be in denial. Maybe we should just establish the facts and use those to formulate the policy? Whether we like it or not though an increasing number of people in this country think it's now a major problem, and that's why Reform are doing rather well in the polls.
not significantly
the most racist areas tend to be those with tbe least immigrants
its fear of orhers amplified by relentless propaganda
edit. answer to nickc
some who observe Sharia law over UK law
What does that actually mean? You don't get to choose your own law.
That's the point, isn't it? They have a difficult life and something leads them blame immigrants, even though their problems are not actually the fault of immigrants.
Sure, but these communities have been let down by successive govts in all areas, from employment to education, and as a country "we're asking" them to embrace and include and accept people with who they share no experiences, no cultural ties, no one has sought their opinion or asked if it was OK, or what they might need in order to take on this work...and just get angry and call them names when they turn to people with "answers".
i see the worlds biggest nutters are piling in on poor old nige
be fascinating if trump starts to go for him
https://bsky.app/profile/sundersays.bsky.social/post/3mf67w34ft22u
Her complaint wasn't about care it was about being ignored.
Hang on... community wants service improvements... some more people come... community gets service improvements... cue complaints. It just shows you can't win... if you seek to improve the lives of people who live somewhere, and coincidentally that is timed with some new people turning up... you STILL get complaints.
Her complaint wasn't about care it was about being ignored.
Hang on... community wants service improvements... some more people come... community gets service improvements... cue complaints. It just shows you can't win... if you seek to improve the lives of people who live somewhere, and it coincidentally that is timed with some new people turning up... you STILL get complaints.
Are you doing this on purpose?