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So… “native” means “white British”, handily excluding everyone British but not white (we know why, but let’s not dwell on it)… now define “British” for white folk. If you are a British citizen who is white and descended from refugees from somewhere else, are you “British?” What about someone who was brought over as a child from Australia, by parents who can trace their roots back to here? Are they white British? Am I white British? Are you? What’s the criteria?
That’s just how it’s worded in the census
Key word is clearly white.
What do want to be done with the non-white members of my family then? British born and bred, but whose skin colour offends you?
Why would their skin colour offend me?
That’s just how it’s worded in the census
The census doesn’t have a “native” question.
It also includes “Black British” in the list of ethnic groups.
Why have you decided that if someone is not white that they are part of some perceived problem that Rupert Lowe will fix for us?
Let’s approach this from a different angle. The Spanish seem to be getting increasingly annoyed at the British who like to retire over there, they don’t learn the language, don’t integrate, live separately in the own little communities etc. If one day they decide they’ve had enough and want to kick them all out should they be able to that? Would that be racism? Or fascism? I think it’s fine if they want to do that, their country, their rules.
billabong tying himself in knots trying to say its not just coz he's racist aside..... Im loving Lowe attacking farage
https://bsky.app/profile/rolandmcs.bsky.social/post/3mf4uwijydk2c
its also quite interesting that Jenricks speech as 'shadow chancellor' was a standard cut n paste Tory speech, absolutely no difference form the one Mel Stride would give today or George Osbounre would've done 15 years ago, they dont even want to scrap the OBR any more
the closer that Reform get to power, the more they know theyll have to moderate their positions- espicially financial as the markets would roast them for some of their more batshit stuff- that gives Lowe & co an opening- they can stay divorced from reality because they stand no chance of getting in to power.
Reform will also struggle with their idolising of Trump & Putin, would expect to see some moderation on that too
apart from bilabong not many people here want to see the ethnic cleansing that Trump is pushing in the States, killing innicent bystanders, rounding up children and families and putting them in concentration camps is abhorrent to most
sorry that should be on the farage thread
but the relevance to the government is that splitting even a few % off the reform vote could make a huge difference come a GE
hopefully with mcsweeney gone Labour wount fall in to the trap of chasing REFUK voters as they try and fend off RESUK
The census doesn’t have a “native” question.
It also includes “Black British” in the list of ethnic groups.
Why have you decided that if someone is not white that they are part of some perceived problem that Rupert Lowe will fix for us?
Let’s approach this from a different angle. The Spanish seem to be getting increasingly annoyed at the British who like to retire over there
@billabong987 any reason why you completely ignored @kelvin 's very relevant question? We can maybe look at your Spanish analogy if you'd care to address the question posed.
Reform will also struggle with their idolising of Trump & Putin, would expect to see some moderation on that too
I don’t know about that, seen who Reform have made head of policy? James Orr! Alignment with the far right government of Hungary, and appeasement of Russia, is increasingly baked into Reform. The current situation in the USA probably makes them think they can get away with that.
Let’s approach this from a different angle.
Let's not. Let's just answer the question that was posed.
because I don’t want the white British to become a minority in Britain obviously.
What about black or brown British?
So, we’re back to what “white British” means… yes, people self declare in the census, but ultimately anyone white might tick that box… it’s only really useful for excluding people who aren’t white. As there have been people in Britain that aren’t white for thousands of years, why does your notion of “native” excluded them and their children, and their children’s children? And why does it include white immigrants, and the children of white immigrants, who self declare as British? But not non-whites who self declare as British?
Just stop messing around and say it plainly. You’re concerned about the balance of white and non-white people in the UK. Even the talk about “white British” becoming a minority isn’t honest, is it. You know Britain will stay a majority white country, any honest look at the numbers will tell you that, you just want it to be whiter, don’t you? It’s about “keeping Britain white”. That’s at the heart of the kind of policy that you can get behind, yes?
because I don’t want the white British to become a minority in Britain obviously. That doesn’t mean everyone else has to get rounded up and kicked out.
Pretty sure I've done plenty more than you and many white British people to earn a place of equal footing.
By a country ****ing mile.
So billabong - your answer to relapsed mandelorian who has put his life on the line for this country? Is he british ( if just a funny shade _ his own words)
I’d consider him English but if he’d prefer to go with British fair enough
But if he doesn’t tick your “white British” box, is he part of this perceived problem you think Rupert Lowe will fix for you?
But he is a non white son of an immigrant - the very folk you were talking about taking over the country
We do have another thread for this now if folk want to not detract too much from this one?
We’re on the (party) politics here. There’s a nice civil discussion on the other thread, let’s not mess with that.
But if he doesn’t tick your “white British” box, is he part of this perceived problem you think Rupert Lowe will fix for you?
I agree this isn’t the correct thread so I’ll stop after this and continue over there if you like.
This all highlights the problems with language like white British, English, native etc. It’s not clearly defined and means different things to different people.
Trying to discuss complex, difficult and contentious subjects over a few lines of text is also a nightmare. I’m probably just not eloquent enough to get my point across clearly without writing walls of text that no one wants to read.
We’re on the (party) politics here. There’s a nice civil discussion on the other thread, let’s not mess with that.
To that end, my point is that a politician doesn't and shouldn't define what it is to belong or what a person identifies as/with.
Rather than try to define nebulous concepts like 'integration', you simply set clear boundaries and requirements for getting in the club and clear measures of accountability when you fall short or fail to play a straight bat.
I think trying to play this off as complicated is disingenuous. It's really quite simple when you get down to it.
With regard to the death penalty post earlier. I’m always dubious of polls, we all know they can be manipulated in various ways. That being said I’ve seen quite a few where when asked if in general it should be brought back around 50% of people agreed. Then when asked specifically if it should be brought back for the most heinous crimes like child rapists and lunatics like Rudakubana it jumps to around 60%.
I think trying to play this off as complicated is disingenuous. It's really quite simple when you get down to it.
Doing it well is likely to be expensive and the Reform DoGE only want to spend money on themselves.
I think trying to play this off as complicated is disingenuous. It's really quite simple when you get down to it.
Doing it well is likely to be expensive
As is the way to do things well and to have lasting positive impact. Problem is they're all shite and incapable of doing things well.
Why would their skin colour offend me?
If you were concerned about immigration, as you profess to be, why didn't you illustrate your concern with the stats about british vs non-british populations over the years. You fixed on WHITE british which if that wasn't your intent, you need to be a whole load more careful about. Because that's the kind of stat a racist would use as illustration.
Secondly - Lowe is a racist, and doesn't care about being labelled as such. Restore has a clearly far right, racist agenda - or do you dispute that? ISTR a discussion some weeks back in which I told of the train ride my wife and daughter endured into London at the time of the Unite the Kingdom marches. And I said that whether you think 'there's a discussion to be had' or not, if you're on that train going to the march with those people, puts you firmly in that camp. Figurative or literal, make a comment like "I really think this is the guy" and you're firmly on Lowe's train with all the other racists.
That Rupert Lowe wins a landslide victory and does all the things he says he’s going to do.
Okay... of "all the things", give us your top 3 things.
I’ll give you the top one thing that it all boils down to. You’re either ok with the native people of this land becoming a minority in their own country or you’re not.
The people that are ok with that have a plethora of options to choose from, all they’re doing is arguing about the speed at which it’s going to happen.
Those who are not ok with it, have been consistently voting against it and been shafted time and time again now have a viable option to vote for. Hopefully.
I can’t see anything whatsoever that would make me vote for that party and that bloke. Anyway, what is this land? England, Britain, UK?
Whether or not you care, it would take a long time for the number of UK born people to become a minority in this country. In the mean time there are a whole load of things that will impact on your life more than the percentage of overseas born people living here.
If it is the main thing you care about, why? What bothers you? What don’t you like about having people born overseas living here? My daughter wasn’t born here… what’s wrong with living next to her?
Hence why the debt mountain is huge and the amount we have to spend servicing that debt is eye watering
FFS here we go again for the nth time. Until people break out of this doom-spiral thinking we're all f---ed. There is not a finite amount of money, there hasn't been since 1971. Whichever way you want to think about it, either MMT or Keynes, the only way to break out of recessions, depressions and economic stagnation is to spend money to invest in the economy, create jobs and stimulate production and consumption. Taking money from services to service debt does the opposite.
If we really are worried about 'paying back' the debt then there is only one way to resolve that, and that's to tax those who can most afford to pay and remove all the loopholes and tax-breaks handed out to corporations and the billionaire elite.
It’s not the debt. It’s the cost of servicing it that’s the issue. Yes we should tax those who are earning the interest to fund its cost
Trying to discuss complex, difficult and contentious subjects over a few lines of text is also a nightmare
At the risk of putting the boot in, which I would prefer to avoid, you did start with the "top one thing that it all boils down to. You’re either ok with the native people of this land becoming a minority in their own country or you’re not. "
When challenged your definition did seem to tend towards white eg " white British in England and Wales"
If we ignore the first bit what are you left with? Is it we shouldnt count people as "British" (substitute English, Scottish, Welsh, lets stick with "Great Britain" and ignore the UK bit) until they or their parents have lived here for x years? If so what is your criteria here?
Sell me on Lowes party!
The Spanish seem to be getting increasingly annoyed at the British who like to retire over there, they don’t learn the language, don’t integrate, live separately in the own little communities etc.
This is rubbish. Spanish people are pretty indifferent to these people who bring money earned abroad and spend it on goods, services and taxes in the Spanish provinces. There'd be **** all industry or employment in the Costa del Sol otherwise - you'll have noticed that the rest of provincial Spain has emptied out because the kids want to live in the cities or elsewhere in the EU. Theres even about 200,000 of them in the UK and the number is growing...
oh give over with this nonsense, populations & culture are dynamic, humanity's history is one of migration, interbreeding and cross fertilisation of ideas, genes, language, technology etc our language is a mixture of celtic, saxon, norman, latin, greek, the backwash of empire bringing even more
I understand that you dont like change billabong, it can be scary, but you wont stop it, the best thing you can do is roll with it
Just out of interest, does this kind of ethno-linguistic Darwinism also apply to Irish and Welsh language and culture that's at risk of extinguishment by English, Scottish Gaelic that's basically dead, all the aboriginal and indigenous peoples of the US, Canada, Russia, Brazil and Australia that have been overwhelmed by outsiders moving in, etc etc...? "Just STFU and roll with it?"
I've done more than most to undermine the "native" population of this country, BTW, so feel free to praise or curse me as appropriate...
top one thing that it all boils down to. You’re either ok with the native people of this land becoming a minority in their own country or you’re not
I'm sure we've all heard or read that comment before but I've always thought there is an inherent and obvious flaw to that argument.
Unless you think that we are going to see 70+ million migrants arrive anytime soon then it's impossible.
Unless...
If you consider the children, grandchildren etc etc of immigrants to the UK as never being British, no way, no how. That's the crux here isn't it? There are people that don't care if someone is born here, they will never consider them as being British due to them having a 'different' surname or skin colour.
So to me, the whole, 'were are becoming a minority' argument is utterly ridiculous unless you really do think British = white.
Tl;Dr It's an argument based upon racial discrimination not logic. Simple as that.
Scottish Gaelic that's basically dead,
Not quite dead, it still has a strong pulse that just needs nurturing to bring back to life and give a sense of belonging /ownership of our history and culture to those that can speak/understand it (I was taught it at primary/high school in Argyll (1980’s)
https://seachdainnagaidhlig.scot/2025/02/17/mythbusting-gaelic-debunking-the-decline-narrative/
Scottish Gaelic that's basically dead,
Not quite dead, it still has a strong pulse that just needs nurturing to bring back to life and give a sense of belonging /ownership of our history and culture
Bit of a Freudian slip there - if it's not dead, it shouldn't need anything to bring it back to life...
But in any case @kimbers seems to be suggesting that nurturing of language, history and culture is a waste of time: you can't fight change, the best thing you can do is roll with it etc.
Lowe's latest policy is a referendum on the death penalty, followed by the retrospective introduction of capital punishment for past murders.
Ironically I would support the death penalty for people who throw litter from car windows, but not for anything else.
nurturing of language, history and culture is a waste of time
Quite the opposite. There is a strong undercurrent of a narrowing of culture, and a belief that only one language should be used in the UK amongst those focussing politically on protecting the "white British". Multiculturalism absolutely includes placing value in, and the nurturing of, languages other than English, and the diverse cultures we have here. Beware those that paint being bilingual as a negative. Beware those that see minority cultures and languages as a "threat" to the majority, rather than a necessary and welcome addition.
oh give over with this nonsense, populations & culture are dynamic, humanity's history is one of migration, interbreeding and cross fertilisation of ideas, genes, language, technology etc our language is a mixture of celtic, saxon, norman, latin, greek, the backwash of empire bringing even more
I understand that you dont like change billabong, it can be scary, but you wont stop it, the best thing you can do is roll with it
Just out of interest, does this kind of ethno-linguistic Darwinism also apply to Irish and Welsh language and culture that's at risk of extinguishment by English, Scottish Gaelic that's basically dead, all the aboriginal and indigenous peoples of the US, Canada, Russia, Brazil and Australia that have been overwhelmed by outsiders moving in, etc etc...? "Just STFU and roll with it?"
I've done more than most to undermine the "native" population of this country, BTW, so feel free to praise or curse me as appropriate...
There is a significant difference between a minority indigenous language and traditional culture being undermined by colonial politics by those with economic power vs the relatively minor impact of immigration on an already very powerful and economically strong majority population. Especially where past colonial actions create the conditions that may facilitate immigration and many of the foundation immigrant populations were invited here in the first place.
What’s more, I don’t think most prominent right wing politicians in the UK give a flying ‘ about Welsh, Gaelic, Irish, Scots, etc.
Sell me on Lowes party!
Plenty of benefits if you look on the Companies House Website. Similar set up to Reform, strangely
Restore Britain Ltd (16514233) and Great Yarmouth First Ltd (16778645) to name but two
From memory in 1991 white British in England and Wales were about 90% of the population. In 2021 they were around 75%. You can fact check me on that but I don’t think it’s a million miles off. I’d consider that a significant change and it shows no sign of stopping.
I looked up these numbers, they seem broadly correct but the issue is that the options given on the census was different between those two years. In 1991 people could select "white" but in 2021 they could select "white British". In 1991 there was probably lots of white people that didn't consider themselves British and in 2021 they didn't select "white British".
With no definition of "white British", why would they? I still don't know if I am in the eyes of those for whom this judgement is important, being born abroad, but I ticked the box because I have a British passport and look white. If a white Ukrainian recently arrived becomes naturalised and ticks that box in 2031, would they be wrong? If someone was born in Belfast, lived most of their life in Manchester, and didn't tick the box, are they wrong? It's a most peculiar stat to get exercised about, or to base your political vote on.
Ironically I would support the death penalty for people who throw litter from car windows, but not for anything else.
What about people who don’t acknowledge you after you just let them out in traffic?
They should be first against the wall, surely?
oh give over with this nonsense, populations & culture are dynamic, humanity's history is one of migration, interbreeding and cross fertilisation of ideas, genes, language, technology etc our language is a mixture of celtic, saxon, norman, latin, greek, the backwash of empire bringing even more
Somewhat controversially but perhaps slaying myths that are created by historiography*; over 'most' of Human's written history period (ie the last C.4500 years); 'most' humans have in fact stayed put, being born, living and dying in a very small geographical area. Describing the idea that post war 'hyper-mobility' as the norm as a way to dismiss people's fears of mass immigration is generally wrong, and a bad argument. .
*the way that humans tend to write about their past