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The political logic is straightforward. Labour’s leadership team is triangulating the threat from Reform UK on the right while insulating itself from the soft‑left threat posed by the mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham. The goal is to be rhetorically tough on migration and spending while still gesturing towards fairness and security.
Ah, the centrist's enduring and flawed logic....try to please everyone by claiming that you agree with them and yet end up pleasing no one.
I'm sure that if they keep trying it will eventually work.
What the actual F....! Utterly clueless and out of touch.
Waving a few flags won't attract Reform voters - but will drive others away from Labour. 🤦♂️
Waving a few flags won't attract Reform voters - but will drive others away from Labour.
Also shouldnt it be the Union Jack for the Labour conference?
...they had those too!... 🙂
If you're happy to Labour to sit back and be painted as "anti-English" or "anti-British", as they so often have been while in opposition, then go ahead and moan. Whether it's swapping the red flag for the red rose, or having Union Jack membership cards and billboards at election times, much more of this "marketing" is needed if you want to fight against the "vote Reform to save your country" movement that is coming. It's going to have so much more momentum than we've seen before, ever more than in 2016 & 2019, now that the USA (that dominates/controls our public online spaces) has swung that way. The battle is going to be bloody... a sea of flags at party conference is nothing compared to the Britanniashagging that'll be needed on the run up to the next election.
The battle is going to be bloody... a sea of flags at party conference is nothing compared to the Britanniashagging that'll be needed on the run up to the next election.
Or they could do their job well and we'd need none of this bullshit.
we'd need none of this bullshit
Fantasy. If at the next election all the key "metrics" are up and people are better off it absolutely will not stop the country swinging towards populism. It is not enough. Anyone that thinks people will look at the facts or metrics and decide that if everything is going their way then on that basis they will turn away from Reform is living in dreamland. The old adage that when people feel worse off they will turn to the far right is still true... but that doesn't mean we should think that in the modern age people being slightly better off materially will neuter the far right... they play by different rules now, they can, and will, pull people towards them even if they are living in a rising economy and are getting a fair share of the benefits. Don't give them an easy ride by being shy of claiming flags and other signifiers. You can be sure they won't.
If you're happy to Labour to sit back and be painted as "anti-English" or "anti-British", as they so often have been while in opposition, then go ahead and moan.
You need to change the company that you apparently keep, accusations of being anti-English or anti-British isn't how I hear Labour often described. Clueless and inept seems to be much more common.
And since you mention it while in opposition Labour was seen as the most patriotic party, more so than even Reform UK.
https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/latest-insights/patriotism-polling/
Instead of throwing in the towel and trying to ape the far-right perhaps Labour should focus more on exposing the fake patriotism of divisive politicians such as Nigel Farage?
The metrics don't matter (they won't be up, anyway) because after 40 years of neo-liberal dismantling and flogging public services to the friendliest bidder, what is needed is a government that can articulate a vision and a plan that will reverse the damage. This government can't bring itself to do that so they furiously wave their wee flags instead.
Temporarily slowing the decline doesn't cut it anymore. Actual change is needed.
Torn on this one its good to see them reclaiming the flag, I dont want it to be a symbol of the far right & xenophobic morons, that said they look awkward af! but the absence of a pushback on Reform claiming the narrative this summer was utterly depressing, the Tories obviously have given up the ghost on being any sort of moderate party.
The reality is the old 'working class labour heartlands' dont really exist, they switched to reform/ukip etc at the brexit vote and they are never coming back, the battle for them is between the Tories and Reform.
Im more than happy for Starmer to push back and condemn the resurgent racism we are seeing, but Labour need to deliver on improving on cost of living/ services and bringing in voters on the left on things like recognising a Palestinian state , workers rights and green energy etc, other wise a fragmented left wing vote will just end up inviting the chaos of a reform minority government
You need to change the company that you apparently keep, accusations of being anti-English or anti-British isn't how I hear Labour often described
Perhaps you're in a London bubble. Elsewhere I assure that is exactly what was being said on doorsteps when Labour were losing elections. And you can be disparaging about my friends who get drawn into this stuff all you like, but millions of Brits are. Right now. It's the dominant message on so much social media. It's based on lies, many of them hateful racist lies, but there is no need to make it easy for people spreading this stuff by political parties hiding away the flags. Waving some flags at conference is an overly simplistic, some would say patronising, approach. I would agree with that. But is it needed? Sadly, I think it is. I don't like where we are, or how we got here.
perhaps Labour should focus more on exposing the fake patriotism of divisive politicians such as Nigel Farage?
Both the LibDem and Labour conferences were absolutely dominated by "exposing the fake patriotism" of people "such as Nigel Farage", and especially the person who "is" Nigel Farage. You think that's enough to cut though? Why do you think that also including a little bit of flag waving isn't pushing back, but is giving in? I see it exactly the other way around. If the other parties hide away the flags, they are giving Reform a free ride to use them against them (and us).
We already require people to show their “papers” for many things. I’m not sure if providing a free digital ID for everyone would further embed exclusion, or help reduce it. We need to know more before making that call, I feel.Yes its a PR disaster - what they should have done was say they were going to modernise proving your NI number to cut down on fraud and nobody could really have complained. But instead they called it an ID card... They could even have pointed out that there are multiple government departments who all require you to have validated digital lDs - HMRC, Companies House and 2 different Scottish Gov schemes are just the ones I've used in the last month - all of which required me to jump through various hoops, and all of which are costing money to maintain/provide.
I don't understand why they didn't say this will be used to cut out benefit fraud and tax evasion - anyone arguing against it would then have looked like they wanted to enable those things!
Why do Tories and Reform object? First and foremost because Labour have proposed it. Especially if it is suggested as a tool in immigration - because you can't have another party trying to tackle that. Cynically if you just fought to get voter ID amidst claims it would help your party then making ID more available to people who wouldn't vote for you might not be a good idea.
If you're happy to Labour to sit back and be painted as "anti-English" or "anti-British", as they so often have been while in opposition, then go ahead and moan
Yes because waving flags around like a prick is clearly stopping that isnt it?
How about and I know this is a radical idea Labour take on the hard right anti British lot who wrap themselves in the Union Jack whilst destroying the ****ing country
Its not particularly British and definitely not English to moronically wave a flag around so to define it as patriotism is insane and something imported by the anti British right wingers from the USA.
If you allow the foreign controlled hard right press to define patriotism as waving a flag around then you have lost the argument.
Labour have to provide a better vision of what Britain is and start delivering. Not wave a flag around like a yank whilst continuing the tories slash and burn sell off.
Perhaps you're in a London bubble.
You think that the research from the UCL Policy Lab and More in Common carried out which showed that voters thought Labour was more patriotic than both the Tories and Reform UK was carried out exclusively in London?
Elsewhere I assure that is exactly what was being said on doorsteps when Labour were losing elections.
Ironic that you should talk of bubbles when you appear to be basing your argument on the apparent demographics of a certain area which you have personally experienced. I am assuming that you don't have experience of doorsteps throughout the UK, unlike pollsters.
But is it needed? Sadly, I think it is. I don't like where we are, or how we got here.
But by validating it you are clearly saying that the far-right's and Nigel Farage's tactics are correct. If Labour are correct in moronically waving little England and UK flags then so obviously are the far-right.
Unless you want to sell hypocrisy as a virtue?
But by validating it you are clearly saying that the far-right's and Nigel Farage's tactics are correct.
If you think that waving a flag is supporting Farage's tactics... well that's exactly the idea that needs to be dispelled. Because otherwise it leads to people thinking that if they want to wave a flag, then they should support Farage.
You think that the research from the UCL Policy Lab and More in Common carried out which showed that voters thought Labour was more patriotic than both the Tories and Reform UK was carried out...
...just before Labour won a majority at a General Election, while all their billboards and election material prominently featured the Union Jack.
If you think that waving a flag is supporting Farage's tactics
I can assure you that is exactly how Morgan McSweeney sees it. And I think most political pundits would agree that Sir Keir Starmer is trying to ape Nigel Farage.
just before Labour won a majority at a General Election, while all their billboards and election material prominently featured the Union Jack.
So not a problem when Labour were in opposition as you claimed. You seemed to suggest that Labour were perceived by voters to be significantly less patriotic than the Tories and Reform UK
Not only were they not perceived to be any less patriotic but they were actually perceived to be more patriotic!
So what if anything has changed in just over 12 months? Well Labour in government have ****-up big time and their support has collapsed.
Solution? The same one as Nigel Farage, in a desperate, and bound to fail, attempt to hide the fact that you have no answers to the real problems facing real people.
So not a problem when Labour were in opposition as you claimed.
**** me, you love a pointless argument.
Labour were seen as unpatriotic for years, they then changed leader, adopted a "reduce migration" policy stance (that I don't agree with) and emblazoned the Union Jack on everything (to an embarrassing degree). If you look at that UCL work in any detail, you'll see that they say that Labour being seen as the most patriotic was a huge change.
Changed Labour Party on patriotism
Starmer’s embrace of patriotic symbols such as the Union Jack has been criticized by some within his party and within the wider Labour movement. This research suggests that this criticism has had little cut through with the electorate, who see it as a signal that Labour has changed since Corbyn and that Starmer’s Labour embraces patriotism. Corbyn’s Labour Party is almost three times more likely to say it is ‘embarrassed to be British’ than Starmer’s Labour (33 per cent under Corbyn’s Labour, 13% under Starmer’s Labour).
As to the drop in support now... a lot of if it absolutely own goals... some damn stupid ones... but plenty of it is the work that's being done, especially on Social Media, to present Labour as being "anti-British" and Reform as the "Make Britain Great Again" party. If you don't want to know that's happening, or want to think it doesn't matter and doesn't need countering... that's up to you.
If Labour think waving a few flags around is going to save them they are utterly deluded. I've been thoroughly enjoying watching as Labour completely implode. My dream of seeing both main parties destroyed draws ever closer, the revolution begins.
and 2 child benefit cap is gobe finally!
My dream of seeing both main parties destroyed draws ever closer, the revolution begins.
What “revolution” are you hoping for?
What “revolution” are you hoping for?
The revolutionary idea of a government that accepts and clearly articulates people are getting poorer because the ultra-wealthy are hoarding all the money and not because people in small rubber dinghies are stealing it.
And then does something about it.
Sounds good. I wonder if billabong987 shares your aims, and importantly see the same path to achieving that. I’m going to guess not.
I was thinking more of a political revolution where both left and right leaning people have a party that actually represents their interests rather than the current weird uniparty situation.
So not a problem when Labour were in opposition as you claimed.
**** me, you love a pointless argument.
Oh the ironing !
Without providing any evidence you claim that Labour were perceived to be unpatriotic, I provide evidence to suggest that not only was that not the case 15 months ago but that voters actually considered Labour to be more patriotic than either the Tories or Reform UK, and still you are arguing the toss!
I am not basing my comment on some sort of hunch that I have, I am basing it on research carried out by University College London and a pollster whose profits are dependent on carrying out reasonably credible fieldwork.
But anyway you carry on believing that you right, and they are obviously wrong, because of something that you heard on a doorstep somewhere! 🙃
I was thinking more of a political revolution where both left and right leaning people have a party that actually represents their interests rather than the current weird uniparty situation.
So Reform UK will lead this "revolution"?
Ah, yes, Nigel Farage......... public school educated, City of London commodity trader, bankrolled by billionaires, and man of the people!
What could possibly go wrong??
for all the cynicism (ok thats proper alan partridge stuff)
i do get the sentiment, Im a cub leader
with a full time job, a long commute, young kids, thats a big committment of my time I volunteer, if anything makes me feel British?! its that
Ah yes, cutting the half time orange... Eh? Lol!
re the 1/2 time orange
i think the point is that its a job a volunteer does with his Sunday morning (my brother helps run his kids youth team and they still have oranges at half time)
Without providing any evidence you claim that Labour were perceived to be unpatriotic, I provide evidence to suggest that not only was that not the case 15 months ago but that voters actually considered Labour to be more patriotic than either the Tories or Reform UK, and still you are arguing the toss!
Sigh. It was not the case 15 months ago, when Labour were about to win a majority government. It was the case (read the UCL analysis) previously, when Labour lost several elections. That’s the whole bloody point.
Sigh. It was not the case 15 months ago, when Labour were about to win a majority government
Sigh. Yes it was the case 15 months ago.
Insight
15 June 2024
New research from the UCL Policy Lab and More in Common finds the importance voters put on the patriotism of their political leaders in the lead up to the general election. The research finds:
Tories lagging behind on patriotism
Labour currently lead the Conservatives as the party most likely to say they are proud to be British. Two in five (40 per cent) say that Starmer’s Labour Party is proud to be British, compared to less than a quarter (24 per cent) who hold the same view about Sunak’s Conservatives. Starmer’s Labour also comes ahead of Nigel Farages’s Reform UK Party on being proud to be British.
Labour was not seen by voters as less patriotic 15 months ago.
So what has changed.......why now the need to start waving little England flags at Labour Conference?
The answer is obvious, the current Labour government has ****ed up big time and most voters now accept the undeniable truth - Labour doesn't have the answers to deal with the real issues which effect their lives.
So time to rely on the time-honoured tradition of politically bankrupted politicians with no answers.....start waving flags.
Donald Trump, Nigel Farage, Sir Keir Starmer, they all know that flags provide the modesty required to cover the naked truth that they have nothing else significant to offer.
Some interesting stuff :
re the 1/2 time orange
i think the point is that its a job a volunteer does with his Sunday morning (my brother helps run his kids youth team and they still have oranges at half time)
It's definitely very admirable and people should definitely be acknowledged and celebrated but when I read about that particular section of his speech my immediate thought was this (for those uncultured enough not to have got the reference):
and they don't even have the excuse of being the Shad-cab anymore.
Labour were seen 24 months ago as offering solutions - that's where they've gone wrong. Trading that for flags and daft economics/lies was so clearly going to make a mess of their pretend majority.
I remember 2-3 years ago suggesting they become a bit more flaggy - it was met with derision. Yeah okay.
Flags on their own = people will see through it
Flags with good left policies = might just work.
Starmer delivered a half-decent speech yesterday - trouble is he means and understands none of what he was saying. And no one cares. Centrists also told me conferences were irrelevent a few years ago.
Literally all eyes on the budget - Reeves' Titanic.
(the idea of back-stopping JLR with a big loan - when Tata has revenue of $180bn and profit of $13Bn - is just plain socialising the losses. So it's 'lending' the equivalent of what they might have *saved with WFA cuts to a profit making parent company. That's how stupid the government is. )
*Governments don't save but just to make a point.
Maybe just maybe -like the Chinese government are doing - you invest in your own infrastructure and production? Chinese EVs are going to slaughter the europeans, particularly the creaking German economy.
Flags on their own = people will see through it
Flags with good left policies = might just work.
Yup, there is nothing wrong with the concept of being patriotic, in fact it is vital in a society which puts the interests of people first.
Personally I believe that the union flag should be flown over every state school, NHS hospital, nationalised railway station, and any other state asset which belongs to the people. To instill a sense of pride, community and belonging, and ownership.
To wave a little flag moronically, or to drape yourself in one, or to surround yourself with flags, to create and emphasis division and feed bigotry, as the far/hard-right do, is not something which anyone who claims to be left-wing and progressive should be doing.
Gotta to say though, I'm not sure what I looks more pathetic imo, people who go around attaching flags on lampposts and other public places, or people who feel "offended" by flags and quickly go around taking them down.
They are just flags, use them appropriately.
Saw a great clip of Starmer calling out Reform, and then saw a headline that he wants international law changing to help deal with migration.
What a useless, spineless idiot. Pick a side and make a stand. For once.
Personally I believe that the union flag should be flown over every state school, NHS hospital, nationalised railway station, and any other state asset which belongs to the people. To instill a sense of pride, community and belonging, and ownership.
despite the fact to a significant % of the population the Union flag is offensive? Half the population of Scotland. wales and NI. Or do you mean just in England?
No I mean the whole of the UK. It's the national flag of the UK so should be flown in all parts of the UK, even if some people are offended.
Sigh. Yes it was the case 15 months ago.
What was?
any other state asset which belongs to the people. To instill a sense of pride, community and belonging, and ownership.
If the idea is that it shows people what the state owns, would you stop privately owned buildings from flying the flag?
https://order-order.com/2025/09/30/labour-cancels-owen-jones-party-conference-pass/
“We have a responsibility to safeguard all our delegates, staff, volunteers, and visitors, and to maintain a safe and welcoming environment for everyone at conference. After careful consideration, we’ve concluded that we cannot continue your attendance while ensuring we meet our safeguarding obligations to all attendees. We hope you’ll understand that this decision was made with everyone’s wellbeing in mind"
I am not sure if that makes Owen Jones sound like a sexual predator or some sort of terrorist.
What's his position on Palestine Action?
Whatever the answer Morgan McSweeney clearly thinks that Owen Jones is dangerous and that the Labour Conference should be protected from him.
despite the fact to a significant % of the population the Union flag is offensive? Half the population of Scotland. wales and NI. Or do you mean just in England?
Yawn. Scotland voted to remain in the union. If we'd driven the tanks in and kept them in the union against their will I would agree with you, but we didn't.
If the idea is that it shows people what the state owns, would you stop privately owned buildings from flying the flag?
No of course not. Flying a flag above a state school, NHS hospital, or railway station, would simply emphasis that these are assets which belong to the nation, ie nationalised, it obviously wouldn't mean that no one else would be allowed to fly the flag!