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More Americans have voted for Trump than 4 years ago... I’m still trying to get my head around that.
on the other hand more folk have voted for Biden than Clinton and Trump combined 4 years ago.
ive no idea what that means in reality though
Has a president ever lost 2 popular votes and served 2 terms?
Just woken up..who is going to win, or too close to call?
So far the polls appear to have been dead wrong 🙁
It's flip-flopped a few times through the night, 3 hours ago when I woke up Biden was on course to win, then it was too close to call, at the moment, I hate to say it but the momentum appears to be with Trump... but, Trump is spinning his wheels madly. He'd like them to stop counting now, whilst he's ahead, which seems fair and he's actually trying to enforce it.
BBC / Sky are saying it's 220-213 to Biden.
Wall Street Journal and Fox News are saying it's 238-213 to Biden.
But most of the states left to declare are Republican, and I think Biden needs a shock result now.
I don't see how this will be resolved quickly, you'd think it would be as simple as counting all the votes in each state and declaring a winner, but this is America.
As an indicator of what the Democrats are up against:
Pretty shocking to see that on a ballot, but what does it actually mean? Having the ability to force criminals to work? Ah, it's getting rid of the loophole in the 13th.
More Americans have voted for Trump than 4 years ago… I’m still trying to get my head around that
It's truly baffling isn't it. There is a sickness at the heart of that country, and democracy in general, frankly. And where they go, we usually follow.
The first time people could claim they didn't know what they were getting, but now....
I'm genuinely going to find the psychological impact of this pretty hard to bear.
I, for one, welcome our new Wotsit overlords.
We know when we've been Tangoed 😢
or trumped
I, for one, welcome our new Wotsit overlords.
Surely...
And where they go, we usually follow.
We did beat them to it with recent acts of massive national self harm...
I agree with your sentiment entirely though. I was hoping that if Biden smashed it some of the British electorate might get buyers remorse about our pound shop Trump.
https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1323916044772270081
Kinda wish I'd taken that 50-1 Trump Win bet that was being offered yesterday. 😳
It’s truly baffling isn’t it. There is a sickness at the heart of that country, and democracy in general, frankly. And where they go, we usually follow.
The first time people could claim they didn’t know what they were getting, but now….
Couldn't the same be said about us with our most recent election - Labour did a ^&%$ job then, much like the democrats now - Labour and Democrats only have themselves to blame
Couldn’t the same be said about us with our most recent election – Labour did a ^&%$ job then, much like the democrats now – Labour and Democrats only have themselves to blame
How do you engage with people who vote against their own interests?
It’s truly baffling isn’t it.
Not really. They're getting the same choice we had last December...
Would you like your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?
I was watching Obama give a speech supporting Biden the other day. It actually had the opposite effect of the one they no doubt intended. You looked at Obama, then you looked at Biden and thought 'christ! is that the best you can come up with?'.
How do you engage with people who vote against their own interests?
You have to play them at their own game - get a leader who has more charisma than a cult leader for starters.
It's not enough any more to simply be better or honest.
How do you engage with people who vote against their own interests?
Learn from the Tories and Republicans - they've managed it
30mins until WI vote is in
Its very tight trump has a 100k lead
Milwaukee has yet to report, its heavily dem, but didn't turn out for Clinton and has been target of biggest voter suppression by the rep legislature
That Republican on BBC News now is a loathsome shit, isn't he?
I wonder if these fine Trump supporters still agree that counting all the votes is important...
https://twitter.com/TheGoodLiars/status/1323285983899590656
Just think, but for Covid we'd probably be looking at an overwhelming Trump landslide
How do you engage with people who vote against their own interests?
You stop pretending that the electorate is just the 5% of centrist* swing voters, and actually give the population as a whole something to vote for. The twisting of the peoples voting has been built on decades of disenfranchisement and deliberately ignoring huge swaths of society. It can't and won't be fixed by one election, especially where the "solution" is just promising business as usual and to sweep the past 4 years under the carpet.
*the centre ground between to right wing corporate owned parties.
Learn from the Tories and Republicans – they’ve managed it
Populism is a race to the bottom. If in order to ‘beat’ lies and spin and fear-mongering you have to do all of those things more and faster while placating the same demographic...then...er.
There is no way up until the bottom is reached. Whatever that looks like depends on how much division the ‘people’ want. The media (whoever that is today) are invested in division.
How do you engage with people who vote against their own interests?
You have to educate them in critical thinking from a young age. So that's not going to happen
According to the Guardian Trump is ahead in WI by 8,500 and there are 160k left to count.
The Guardian's showing Biden in the lead in WI.
CNN Livestream have Biden up by 10k in WI after Milwaukee County numbers coming in.
Just think, but for Covid we’d probably be looking at an overwhelming Trump landslide
I'm not so sure. I see a LOT of people that believe Covid is fake, the numbers are fake or overhyped and it doesn't exist or is "no worse than the flu" etc. Trump plays very well to them.
Kinda wish I’d taken that 50-1 Trump Win bet that was being offered yesterday.
I saw that bet being offered, I took heart in that the bookies must have been certain he would lose, but then saw the small print. The maximum bet was £1 and the winnings would only be paid out as 10 x £5 free bets, so effectively the bookie was just trying to gain new customers!
Here's an updated map. Trump is provisionally ahead in the bronze toss-up states, but the mail ballots should favour Biden. Trump basically has to win all four of those states to win. Biden only needs to win any single one of them for a draw or a win.
Not really. They’re getting the same choice we had last December…
Hardly. Biden was the safe centrist establishment candidate. Yet now you're equating him to Corbyn? Don't be daft, Bernie was always the best candidate, yet I distinctly remember many centrist types on here saying Biden was the better choice. Well here we are.
When is everyone going to get their head around the fact that the centrist approach is dead. You don't fight populism with meek, middle of the road, sit on the fence, sensible and mature politics. You've got to fight dirty, and beat them at their own game. Biden didn't do that, Corbyn didn't do that, and Starmer won't do that, and the results will be the same.
Hardly. Biden was the safe centrist establishment candidate. Yet now you’re equating him to Corbyn? Don’t be daft, Bernie was always the best candidate, yet I distinctly remember many centrist types on here saying Biden was the better choice. Well here we are.
I'm not sure why all these grampos are what they go for
Bernie was always the best candidate
Obviously not, seeing as how Democratic Party members much preferred Biden. If you can't win your own party's voters, hard to see how you're going to attract independents.
Don’t be daft, Bernie was always the best candidate, yet I distinctly remember many centrist types on here saying Biden was the better choice. Well here we are.
Sanders would NEVER have won. I wish that were not the case, but it is.
It's creeping toward a Biden win in WI
But sooooo tight & a somewhat bigger hill to climb in MI & something of a mountain in PA
😒
I saw that bet being offered
Yep, I went to jump on it... then saw it was just a trap.
I wish that were not the case, but it is.
This. Bernie should be mainstream USA, his policies are what is really needed there... but the idea that he would be embraced by nearly enough of the population is far from reality.
Just think, but for Covid we’d probably be looking at an overwhelming Trump landslide
I’m not so sure. I see a LOT of people that believe Covid is fake, the numbers are fake or overhyped and it doesn’t exist or is “no worse than the flu” etc. Trump plays very well to them.
It's the economic effect of Covid that could have hurt him.
I know the news is full of covid deniers and anti-maskers, but like anti vaxxers and flat earther, they're small in number, but great footage for the News so it seems like there's more of them, then there is.
He's spend the last 4 years creating jobs in old dying industries which is pure gold for disenfranchised working class Americans, he was also riding the post-Great Recession recovery. He's hugely popular with White Males in the US.
Covid unwound all that like it did everywhere else, the difference being he fought lockdowns to get their economy going again, but with even 260k Covid deaths in the US, it's what the majority of people wanted because the Americans are a lot more concerned about self-determination that we are, and frankly they worship money.
Not to mention, whilst Trump is a comic figure in most of the world, the US press are, not kind as such, but more respectful as he IS their President and their inherent Patriotism allows him that.
Fudge this I'm going for a bike ride
Hardly. Biden was the safe centrist establishment candidate. Yet now you’re equating him to Corbyn?
I do love your quaint idea that most people are sat studying the party manifestos and weighing up relative policies. They're not. Its all soundbites and slickly produced campaign videos
The point is that Biden and Corbyn were both shit, uninspiring candidates, who didn't even understand the populist showmen they were taking on.
I don't know if you saw the Johnathan pie take on it, but this is absolutely on the money
It’s creeping toward a Biden win in WI
But sooooo tight & a somewhat bigger hill to climb in MI
My my maths, Biden will win MI if he wins 60% of the remaining ballots. Given his advantage with mail ballots, I think Biden should be favoured to win. Basically, Trump has to win all the remaining states, Biden will win if he takes Mi alone. Ga and NC are still possible wins for Biden, so he has more paths to victory than Trump.
Biden was a BAD centrist candidate. He's had a bad slip ups in press where his cognitive abilities have come into question. He carries both negative and positive baggage from being Obama's VP. The stuff about his son, as much as a huge percentage of the media likes to ignore it, the general American population wont.
If any of you thought Biden was a great candidate, well, here we are in an election, where without a global pandemic his chances would probably be very slim. After all, before Covid, the US economy looked good, and had just avoided a confrontation with Iran.
Does anyone know if declared states can 'change their mind'? it seems obvious but you just don't know these days.
For example, Texas has declared for Trump, he's leading 5.8m votes to 5.1m votes, but there's still 2m votes left to count.
https://www.wsj.com/election-results-2020/
I'm keeping BBC coverage on in the background.
It sounds like it's just too close to call still, and will be for most of the rest of the day but Trump is getting everything lined up for challenge/proud boy riots, by implying that counting should stop now, by suggesting that anything counted today wasn't cast on or before polling day... It's insidious and deliberate.
The thing is I can see it going Trump's way, he's scored the important swing states that the Dems thought they might have a chance in. His pre-emptive whinging just serves to undermine him should he subsequently win, and just make him look insecure (from the outside looking in)...
His supporting mob will no doubt love all of this though, it feeds into the conspiracy driven, division of the whole nation...
I do love your quaint idea that most people are sat studying the party manifestos and weighing up relative policies.
Have you seen Sanders speak and campaign? He was the perfect opponent against Trump, an aggressive, straight talking pit-bull of a campaigner. My point aboout Sanders has got nothing to do with the policies and is based purely on him having the presense and aggression to turn people's heads away from Trump. We don't know if he would have succeeded, but it's almost certain that he'd have run a much better campaign than Biden.
I don't if this is in full effect:
Does anyone know if declared states can ‘change their mind’?
States haven't declared, they've been declared by the media... they're still counting.
Binners, the Corbyn thread is that way ——-> please don’t make this into a the Corbyn thread.
There is no perfect candidate - any of the Democrat frontrunners would have been attacked, just from different angles, whether it's being a 'socialist', too old, too young, gay or just for being a woman.
Biden I think has tired horribly during the campaign. He was considerably more composed a month ago. I also have a suspicion that the sheer saturation of Democrat advertising aimed at certain states has actually irritated the voters.
Bernie should be mainstream USA, his policies are what is really needed there
No, he comes across as a cranky old man still living in the 1970s. I think Elizabeth Warren is a credible candidate, but Sanders isn't. Giveaway with those two is that comfortably off White people with education like them, but Black voters did not like them. A Democratic candidate isn't going to achieve much if Black voters won't vote for them, as Hilary Clinton showed.
Does anyone know if declared states can ‘change their mind’?
All we have at the moment are unofficial predictions of who the final winners will be. The official winners won't be announced until all the votes are tallied and any recounts or challenges dealt with. In most cases, it will be obvious who the winner is, but Wisconsin, Michigan, etc. might have weeks of recounts and lawsuits before the results are certified.
No, he comes across as a cranky old man still living in the 1970s.
I know how he comes across, and I agree... he'd have been a disaster as a candidate... but his policies, which he would have been attacked on and lost voters because of, are what they need yet absolutely will never embrace in enough numbers. I don't think they chose the right candidate, but the answer wasn't Sanders.
Bookies seem to have them neck and neck now.. Trump was the clear favourite a few hours ago (Biden was favourite last night)
Bernie Sanders? Seriously? He wouldn't have stood a chance!
Surely Kamala Harris would have been the obviously better candidate?
Sanders would NEVER have won.
Agreed. One of the main MAGA scare points is "Boo! Socialism! Boo!" and Biden isn't even socialist. Bernie is (by American standards).
I know the news is full of covid deniers and anti-maskers, but like anti vaxxers and flat earther, they’re small in number, but great footage
Nah, it's not just on the news. Comments on social media posts on TikTok, FB, Twitter, YouTube etc are full of covid deniers. And unfortunately that matters these days. It sways opinion. (Especially when the president backs them and retweets them!)
And like flat earth I think it is indicative of a far more widespread anti-science anti-intellectual movement.
Surely Kamala Harris would have been the obviously better candidate?
Even if you disregard how controversial she is (for whatever reason), my life with an American wife has taught me this- unless there's a dramatic shift in attitude, America is too bigoted to vote for a woman. To the point where they'd rather have a black man than a white woman.
My wife voted in Florida. Fat lot of use that was...
America is too bigoted to vote for a woman. To the point where they’d rather have a
black manranting shitgibbon than a white woman.
FTFY.
Its worth remembering that, so far, more than 66m US voters have said that they want Trump (liar, racist, sexist, incompetent international embarrassment) to be their President.
That is simply nuts.
Sanders would NEVER have won. I wish that were not the case, but it is.
100% agree.. Sanders wouldn't have stood a chance
Bernie Sanders? Seriously? He wouldn’t have stood a chance!
You'd be surprised, he always polled well against Trump, and I don't think sanders was getting the extra cool polling points that Biden/Clinton always get. In addition, I think he would have resonated well with some of the working class voters in the swing states. That said, imo pre-covid Trump was in a strong position to get re-elected
There's over a million votes to be counted in PA
Its tightening in Trumps favour in AZ & NV
WI still too close
MI a while off
This is all just too depressing now. Trump is going to play it like he said he would and now there are only two real options:
Trump gets a second term.
Riots.
I'm not a big fan of the US at the best of times but now they can go and rot in the filth of their own making.
Bernie Sanders? Seriously? He wouldn’t have stood a chance!
Maybe, we don't know. We do know for certain however that he would have fought a much more aggressive campaign, and he had an army of on the ground campaigners ready to sweat blood for him. I'm not so sure the policies are particularly important in this election, it's mostly personalities, and the still relevant anti-establishment undercurrent. Sanders would have put off some anti-socialist centrists, and perhaps some black people, but he would have scooped up huge numbers of white working class votes in the rustbelt states where Biden is struggling. If you look at the map this morning, I doubt any of the currently blue states would have been lost by Sanders, but he would have stood to gain in many red ones.
America is too bigoted to vote for a woman. To the point where they’d rather have a black man than a white woman.
That's my opinion why Harris is Biden's VP.
There's no way that the US will vote for a woman, let alone a Democrat one, so let the old vanilla guy clear the pathway for her. It may happen yet.
they can go and rot in the filth of their own making
Of course the problem this time is that, because we're rotting in the filth of our own making in the UK, it'll effect us much more in terms of a trade deal that's truly devastating for food standards, health etc, or one that's just pretty bad.
Let's be honest, over the last few days Biden has looked completely clapped out. Every time I've seen him campaigning I haven't managed to hear what he's saying, a combination of wearing a mask whilst talking into a megaphone and a weakening voice.
Trump held 6 rallies on Monday, ranting for over an hour at each. For a man supposedly recovering from coronavirus his energy levels were amazing. When Biden jogged up the catwalk a couple of days ago I really began to worry, in trying to show how youthfull and energetic he was he illustrated exactly the opposite.
Trump looks like the youthful candidate, Biden comes across as 15-20 years older than Trump.
I think the talk of best candidates is a bit of a distraction too. I think when one side is willing to play on people's most base emotions in the most cynical ways, there really isn't a lot you can do, and that's what's so worrying.
No reason at all to assume western liberal democracy will last forever, I think we are seeing the beginnings of that, honestly.
One thing that baffles me is the way he seems to have got away with shitting on the military, and this coming from a draft dodger. In a mega patriotic country that reveres the military it seems very odd.
Of course the problem this time is that, because we’re rotting in the filth of our own making in the UK, it’ll effect us much more in terms of a trade deal that’s truly devastating for food standards, health etc, or one that’s just pretty bad.
It'll make no difference, we'll be agreeing trade deals with the same folk whoever 'wins' this nonsense.
Even if you disregard how controversial she is (for whatever reason)
She's had some very stupid moments. Like using the confirmation hearing of Mattis to virtue signal, or riding the Jess Smolett "incident" which then turned out that was of his making.
kimbers
Fudge this I’m going for a bike ride
Kimbers wins. 🙂
Sanders would NEVER have won. I wish that were not the case, but it is.
Would have been a much better President for the US and the world.
But wouldn't get elected over there, not in a million years. I agree pandering to the centre is tinkering with the problems, but the fact is, people don't seem to want to vote for a big lurch to the left, even if it's bin their own interests.
For a man supposedly recovering from coronavirus his energy levels were amazing.
Did you not hear his Fox and Friends call? He sounded like hell. Slurring badly and rambling about how unfair Fox had been to him. He almost sounded drunk but probably just knackered.
Its worth remembering that, so far, more than 66m US voters have said that they want Trump (liar, racist, sexist, incompetent international embarrassment) to be their President.
That is simply nuts
Yep, it's amazing. We just can't see what they can. If it were just one state, or one demographic then fair enough but it's half of America. Part of it will be 'never Democrat' but the rest is amazing
Even if the counts continue, and Biden gets the states he needs... Trump is now set up to be "the real President" and a right royal pain in the arse of any future administration. What he managed to achieve in terms of damaging Obama (the birther nonsense etc) is nothing compared to the disinformation and instability he'll able to spread as the "defrauded rightful ruler".
He almost sounded drunk but probably just knackered.
Trump is teetotal.
"As Trump himself admitted in a 2018 Rose Garden press conference, his lifelong sobriety is "one of my only good traits." He went on to say, "I never had alcohol, for whatever reason. Can you imagine if I had? What a mess I would be. I would be the world's worst.""
https://www.mashed.com/239831/the-real-reason-donald-trump-doesnt-drink-alcohol/?utm_campaign=clip
Its worth remembering that, so far, more than 66m US voters have said that they want Trump (liar, racist, sexist, incompetent international embarrassment) to be their President.
That is simply nuts
Yep, it’s amazing. We just can’t see what they can. If it were just one state, or one demographic then fair enough but it’s half of America. Part of it will be ‘never Democrat’ but the rest is amazing
How do you think we're looking to the rest of the world at the moment?
With our lying, philandering, bumbling, racist, incompetent former-journalist and sometime TV host as PM, with his huge majority, about to commit the greatest act of economic suicide ever, that was voted for by a majority of the population.
I don't think we're in a position to be passing judgement on anyone
Alas Kelvin I think you’re right.