i understand people’s views, but
Really, what are ‘people’s views‘?
She said:
"Training for staff is needed to deal with this in a sensitive manner,".
Wetherspoons said:
"The incident has shown that providing ID for transgender customers may present difficulties and we will review our processes in the area." They said
Done. Finished. Non-story on the face of it. But no...everyone wants to chew on it and make a ‘point’ or score some ‘wins‘ on the internets. A non-story (on the global scale) now easily becomes a globe-spanning dog-chew for people who are generally the most unaffected by such events.
Imagine people agreeing with the upshot of the article. ie ‘oh maybe that could have been handled better, hate to see people feeling upset but glad it worked out well in the end’
See also the young man with a special-needs anti-head-banging helmet who was brashly refused entry to The Cosy Nice Cottage Inn because of the no-motorcyclists policy. The pub apologised and reviewed their sensitivity policy. And Twitter was awash with ‘anti-WOKE’ articles about how motorcyclists and the learning disabled want to cancel pubs.
Wait, strike the last part that was the 1970s before electronic and social media. I may even have almost (or totally) invented the whole thing.
But...who won? The Woke or the AntiWoke? The Right or the Left? The Gays or the Straights? Europe or Brexit? Trump or China? Men or Women? Black or white? Latte or Bitter?
Which they’ve apologised for and learnt from. Obviously they’ll never be a politically savvy as you, but what more do you want?
So why are people arguing that they'd make the same mistake?
Do you really think I'm that knowledgeable, or are you just having a petty dig because I'm more aware of social injustice and eloquently showing compassion and empathy towards people who aren't like me?
It's nothing to do whether people aren't like you or not or empathy etc....the kid didnt have the right face on the ID...end of!! When a company can receive a fine or worse for swrving underage kids then the staff did exactly the right thing.
A complete non story.
the kid didnt have the right face on the ID…end of
You’ve seen the photoID as well?
kelvin
You make it sound so easy.
Currently: https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender + https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate
Attempts have been made to remove some of the hurdles in place, but the push back against those changes have been both vocal and effective.
Does she actually need to change the gender on the ID though? The barpeople didn't refuse to serve her because it said M instead if F, it was because the picture was not recognisable as her. Surely she could get e.g. a Citizencard with a picture accurately showing her current appearance and solve the problem?
I didn't say anything about changing the gender in the passport, someone else said that they should, I just pointed out that for a 19 year to do so is far from trivial. Even ignoring that the law is currently an arse when it comes to such things... getting an amended passport is not cheap.
…end of!!When a company can receive a fine or worse for swrving underage kids then the staff did exactly the right thing.
So instead you'd rather go to court and be sued for breaching the Equality Act?
"It is unlawful to refuse a service, or provide a worse standard of service,
because a person is intending to undergo, are undergoing, or have
undergone gender reassignment. For example, this means that stopping
a trans person from using the toilet they feel is appropriate to them
may create a risk of legal action being taken against the pub, club or
venue you work at.
It is also unlawful for a business to unlawfully discriminate against or
harass someone because they intend to undergo, are undergoing, or
have undergone gender reassignment. A business can be held legally
responsible for unlawful discrimination or harassment carried out by
its workers during their employment. In some circumstances, those
workers may be held personally liable for any unlawful discrimination or
harassment they engage in. "
I guess that's why the company has apologised and is making an effort to educate staff. Hmm, do I upstage you with a mic drop?
To save everyone skim reading that...
ID
Be aware that you might get situations in which a trans person looks different to how they look on their ID. While some trans people do change their ID to their new identity, some trans people do not want to change their ID, others may not have changed their ID yet or they may be unable to change their legal identity.
Agreed that the company have handled this well after the event... it's just odd that so many people want to ignore the apology and declaration of intention to improve things by the company, and double down on there being no need to do either.
@Faerie - i'd take my chances given the circumstances. Common semse needs to prevail here.
If you don't look like what your official ID says you do then you dont have a leg to stand on.
If you don’t look like what your official ID says you do then you dont have a leg to stand on.
Did you not read anything Faerie quoted, or linked to?
And... again... have you seen the photoID? Why are you so sure that you can't tell it is the same person?
Well, something to do with the opening sentence of the article 'A transgender woman has spoken of her upset after she was refused service in a pub because staff did not think she looked like the person on her ID'
So that sentence hints that there were more than one pair of eyes looking at the ID does it not??!
Three pages of whataboutery. Has anyone seen the ID in question and a photo of said lady that doesn't look like it's been Instagrammed within an inch of its life? Were any of us in the pub at the time and witnessed the event happening? Then you're all guessing.
It's possible that there was prejudice at work here. It's plausible, though very far from certain, that the staff thought "I'm not serving that freak."
It's possible that it was someone doing their job and didn't know any better. At the end of the day it was someone buying a drink, where refusal of service would be a relative non-issue but serving someone underage could cost them their job.
It is unlawful to refuse a service, or provide a worse standard of service, because a person is intending to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone gender reassignment.
See that word I've highlighted there? That's the important bit. It doesn't mean they're instead compelled to serve what presumably appears to them to potentially be an underage girl with her brother's passport.
Assuming the staff are being honest, she wasn't refused service because she was transgender but because she didn't look like her photo ID. Those are two very different scenarios and conflating the two just feeds the sort of narrative that Malvern Rider was lampooning. Cross out "transgender" and put "had plastic surgery" then read the story again.
In either case it's likely that some form of staff training is appropriate here to better deal with potential TG issues, raise awareness and treat people with a little more empathy, and I'm pleasantly surprised to see that looks like it's going to happen.
It does rather beg the question though, if her passport likeness is sufficiently poor as to not be able buy a drink, it's not going to be much use as a passport either is it?
Apologies to Jon here incidentally. Obtaining alternative ID is not something I've had to do, I just knew it existed. Sounds a right PITA.
And what if that person offered to remove an item they were wearing in order to prove they were who they were?
Something about common sense was mentioned I believe?
It does rather beg the question though, if her passport likeness is sufficiently poor as to not be able buy a drink, it’s not going to be much use as a passport either is it?
Aye - what's the point of any photo id if the likeness is irrelevant?
Apologies to Jon here incidentally. Obtaining alternative ID is not something I’ve had to do, I just knew it existed. Sounds a right PITA.
My BiL has neither passport nor driving license but needed photo ID to take internal UK flights. He got a Citizens Card without any hassle.
Does he look like his photo? (-:
kelvin
I didn’t say anything about changing the gender in the passport, someone else said that they should, I just pointed out that for a 19 year to do so is far from trivial. Even ignoring that the law is currently an arse when it comes to such things… getting an amended passport is not cheap.
Rather than say she didn't need to do that, you posted two links on changing gender on a passport and getting a gender recognition certificate, so it read to me that you agree with the poster that it's required, but difficult to achieve.
kelvin
And… again… have you seen the photoID? Why are you so sure that you can’t tell it is the same person?
I don't know why you keep making this point. Aside from barkeeper and bar manager in the main incident in the article, the woman herself goes on to say that it's been a problem a number of times since she transitioned in Feb 2019.
And what if that person offered to remove an item they were wearing in order to prove they were who they were?
Something about common sense was mentioned I believe?
Dunno about that. It does seem a bit odd. Could have been any number of reasons. Could well be that the server was prejudiced (and exercising a bit of prejudice of my own, it is someone choosing to work in a Wetherspoons). It could equally well be that they'd been stroppy pains in the arse for the last 15 minutes before ordering anything and the staff just wanted shut of them. We can sit here guessing all day.
Does he look like his photo? (-:
Apparently, he doesn't have to...
Is that how you see it, as a trap? Trans girl goes out for a drink with mates, staff refuse to serve because she doesn’t look like her photo, she explains why, they still don’t accept it, resulting in her offering to show them why, and they still don’t. And eject her.
This is incredibly naieve.
They would have been slaughtered if they'd have agreed to her offer of taking her wig off. It's already magically appeared in the press, this would have been another level.
I don’t know why you keep making this point.
Because, without seeing whether the person can be clearly identified from their ID, just about every claim and statement made by most posters in this thread is just vague supposition written as if fact. Clear statements about the staff doing the right/wrong thing are meaningless judgements without seeing the person and their photoID. We don't know.
On the passport issue (and this probably also applies to other official state ID that is accepted as proof of age, I don't know) staff need to be prepared for the gender to be different to that presented at the time, especially for young people, because getting their status on official documents updated is currently very difficult.
kelvin
Because, without seeing whether the person can be clearly identified from their ID, just about every claim and statement made by most posters in this thread is just vague supposition written as if fact.
From the article:
It is not the first time she has been questioned about her ID picture. She added: "A few times I've gone in [to other pubs] and they've said 'that's not you', but my voice isn't very feminine so when I speak it clears up the fact that I am trans, and I tell them that I am too."
Are you're saying they're all mistaken? 🤷🏻♂️
She's come across the same problem before, yes. Her description suggests that, when staff in the past have made the same understandable mistake, that once they know she is trans, they can see that it is her ID and accepted it. Without seeing the photoID, I have no idea if that is a reasonable expectation for all staff checking her ID, and nor do any of us.
@cougar post seems to sum this up well 🙂
On the passport issue (and this probably also applies to other official state ID that is accepted as proof of age, I don’t know) staff need to be prepared for the gender to be different to that presented at the time
The UK passport has the 'sex' of the individual. Gender is not recorded. The staff do need to be prepared for a whole variety of presentations by individuals. A tricky job!
So instead you’d rather go to court and be sued for breaching the Equality Act?
Possibly.
Since that scenario would probably result in me as the bar person getting the sack but be the company paying the bill.
Whereas if I served someone underage it would probably also result in me getting the sack and also having to pay the fine since for underage drinking its the server responsible not the company (which is why staff may decide to recheck regardless of the bouncers already having done so since its their necks on the line).
Apart from Kelvin, did anyone read the link to the Home Office guide for IDing trans customers?
"Transphobic hate crime
Any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be
motivated by hostility or PREJUDICE on the basis of a person’s actual or perceived
transgender identity, is a hate crime.
Hate crimes are particularly traumatic for victims. A customer who feels that
they are the victim of a transphobic hate crime may need your help and support,
including if they (or another person) wish to report it to the police."
Prejudice is not necessarily intended but is often used in decision making. I'll ask again, do you really believe that a young woman would use a male passport and claim she was transgender by cutting her hair and wearing a wig just to have a drink down the pub?
Or is it just a convenient excuse that means you don't have to step out of your comfort zone?
Common sense has been mentioned a few times but not many are applying it.
Possibly.
Since that scenario would probably result in me as the bar person getting the sack but be the company paying the bill.
"In some circumstances, those
workers may be held personally liable for any unlawful discrimination or
harassment they engage in." Home Office
Three pages and all I’m getting is I’m glad I don’t work in a pub. Anybody under the age of 25 looks about 14 to me. Safest just to increase (or decrease)the legal drinking age!
did anyone read the link to the Home Office guide for IDing trans customers?
It is a wet windy afternoon so...
...it is no wonder staff are unsure on this issue! I wonder what 'legal' status this guide has?
IMO it misapplies the english language and the Equality Act. Conflating sex and gender, talking about the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment as if it meant gender identity. The 'Toilet' advise directly contravenes single sex exemptions within the Act.
Other authoratitive institutions have also been found wanting in providing correct guidance e.g the Equalities and Human Rights Commission have admitted this failure, though are yet to amend their guidance to bring it in line with the law.
ID
Be aware that you might get situations in which a trans person looks different to how they look on their ID. While some trans people do change their ID to their new identity, some trans people do not want to change their ID, others may not have changed their ID yet or they may be unable to change their legal identity.
She’s come across the same problem before, yes.
Common sense just dictates if people don't think you are the person on your photo ID with DOB you get some other photo ID to corroborate or change the one you're using.
So you guys think that a young woman would cut their hair, wear a wig, claim they are trans and use a male passport just to get into a bar underage?
Bit elaborate is it not?
Erm... they got into a bar, they wanted serving alcohol.... and yep like most of my mates we spent 1/2 our lives at 17 working out how to get served, fake ID's etc. I had a fake NUS card.. went to a lot of trouble to get that!
Regardless you can still get chucked out or refused to be served for any number of reasons.
Being a dick is often a reason though perhaps that doesn't apply to Wetherspoons?
I had a fake NUS card.. went to a lot of trouble to get that!
Well, then you know why young people now have to carry official documentation, such as a passport, to prove their age. Official documentation that can prove very difficult and expensive to get updated when transitioning, especially if you are young, which most people needing proof of age are.
It seems like a non story to me...
Speaking as a hand wringing liberal, (not lefty, don't get confused now.) I also know what it's like for bar staff in a busy pub - they are not going to spend half an hour explaining/debating the decision, they simply have to say, nope, not you, to the best of their ability and that's that.
Was that particular decision wrong? quite possibly, but it seems there was no harm intended.
My local spoons used to have a lot of bother with kids hanging around outside, with a few mates inside who were '18' bringing drinks out to them, so they really clamped down on anyone who vaguely looked like a youngster regardless of gender or ID. It wasn't the bar staff being difficult or 'ist' it was an operational hazard.
Can someone explain the CIS thing to me ? One of the bike mechanic forums had some topic the other day and any male who dared to speak was immediately pounced upon for injecting their masculinity .I didnt get it all so didnt ask,as the general concensus and narrrative seemed to be that if you have to ask leave the thread
If im being honest it irked me somewhat , not that i was being excluded , more that the general attitude was one that the posters werent prepared to explain to several other bemused people what the hell it was all about and you shouldnt ask.
Lol. It's one thing getting a fake ID with all the tipex, photocopying and cutting a photo to size to get a drink, and quite another to changing your actual appearance and gender to get a gin. She even offered to humiliate herself further and take her wig off to show that she is who her passport says she is.
The same arguments in favour of prejudice are being recycled, despite evidence to show that what they did is wrong. According to the law a refusal in this situation is clearly discriminatory, which is why she's received an apology. Arguing against it just demonstrates how set people are in their ways and unable to extend empathy to those they don't understand.
Sorry, this thread has reminded me of Allthegear. I hope that she is well.
Well, then you know why young people now have to carry official documentation, such as a passport, to prove their age. Official documentation that can prove very difficult and expensive to get updated when transitioning, especially if you are young, which most people needing proof of age are.
Citizenship card: Costs £12 and takes 21 days. Card posted by Royal Mail 2nd class post
(or you can do the "urgent") ..
Cost: less than 3 pints
Really doesn't seem to be THAT difficult considering...
Try a list of the 10 most difficult things and 10 most expensive things for a young person transitioning.. does applying for a citizenship card really make either top 10?
One of the bike mechanic forums had some topic the other day and any male who dared to speak was immediately pounced upon for injecting their masculinity .I didnt get it all so didnt ask,as the general concensus and narrrative seemed to be that if you have to ask leave the thread
LOL. I think I know the one. If the thread had been "are there any female bike mechanics on here?" you'd have likely just browsed on past. Also see "non-ovulators", "people who have periods". etc.
The same arguments in favour of prejudice are being recycled
So drop your prejudice...
"teen who didn't look like their photo ID refused service in pub…"
She even offered to humiliate herself further and take her wig off to show that she is who her passport says she is.
Rather than what, "the humiliation" of applying for a new citizenship card photo?
Cripes I got asked to remove my glasses at immigration... the humiliation.
I was refused service in a pub when I was 25. Their minimum age was 21. I was with my workmates and did actually feel pretty humiliated. Especially as they ribbed me about it for ages afterwards.
Cripes I got asked to remove my glasses at immigration… the humiliation.
Absolutely no comparison what so ever.
Absolutely no comparison what so ever.
True, I can't read without them.
True, I can’t read without them.
Have you considered a career as a bouncer? Good eyesight apparently not a pre-requisite.
I’ll ask again, do you really believe that a young woman would use a male passport and claim she was transgender by cutting her hair and wearing a wig just to have a drink down the pub?
I don't think that anyone on this thread or indeed anywhere is suggesting that as a likely scenario, it's a (ludicrous) straw man argument.
Rather, do you think that it's 100% impossible that a 17-year old genuinely transgender woman might borrow her similar-looking older brother's passport in order to get served in a bar?
True, I can’t read without them.
You can sure as hell type though.
Can someone explain the CIS thing to me ?
It's not a "thing." It's been the conventionally accepted "normal" that has been expected and indeed demanded for decades, not a movement.
One of the bike mechanic forums had some topic the other day and any male who dared to speak was immediately pounced upon for injecting their masculinity
#AllLivesMatter ?
LOL. I think I know the one. If the thread had been “are there any female bike mechanics on here?” you’d have likely just browsed on past. Also see “non-ovulators”, “people who have periods”. etc.
See that was the thing to me they were all just people doing a job , it seemed like it needed to be labelled for some reason, I personally didnt understand what it had to do with being a bike mechanic in the first place but it seemed because of the topic title to develop into some issue? Cripes
It’s not a “thing.” It’s been the conventionally accepted “normal” that has been expected and indeed demanded for decades, not a movement.
Really great explanation. I had never heard of it.
