Can someone find me someone who owns a chain or a brewery who isn’t a deeply unpleasant rapacious money grabber?
Yes
Won’t be long before we get assigned compulsory digital ID.
How times have changed. When I was 15 we went to the local pub, landlord served us alcohol no questions asked (I looked about 12-13, having since seen some old school photos)
Furthermore on our leaving the landlady invited us to see a (female) stripper on the weekend!
(‘Sunday afternoon, lads? We gorra stripper. We’re doing a roast dinner too...’)
Even as kids visiting our first pub without our parents we thought it must be a bit of a ‘special’ pub to be doing lunchtime striptease letalone with gravy and peas. We joked that it was probably going to be the landlord’s wife. She looked a bit like the grandmother in ‘Giles’. cartoons. Anyway, never went back. There were about 60 other pubs within a mile. (Think it’s down to the mid-40s now)
Reported that she offered to both barman and manager to remove her wig so she’d look (more) like her passport photo, but both refused.
However 'spoons would still lose if it that were to play out, only the narrative would be "those nasty transphobic bar staff humiliated me into taking my wig off in front of the whole bar"
Grum, I'm not saying they're all the same but they're all businesses in the same market. If you start boycotting every business because of foul practice there's a lot you wouldn't do or buy. I also think Spoons staff were treated appallingly but maybe having a pint and chatting unions is more effective than putting them out of a job.
All you wetherspoons fans desperate to prove your salt of the earth credentials might want to take a look at who owns the company and some of his public utterings.
The comments haven't been slagging off the odious boss - they've been aimed at the customers in general and tarring them all with same brush.
Which I think falls under the umbrella of prejudice.
Here comes the juice. Squeeze the ‘story‘ hard enough. Insert some words.
1 x ‘transphobia‘
1 x ‘boycotting’
Red-rags to the ‘take back control‘ narrative.
Are we going for a bingo card? How about ‘No reason for forced diversity’? Howabout ‘PC gone too far’?
Keep it up, and with any luck LGBT people will be increasingly (not decreasingly) unwelcome and ‘then they’ll really have something to whine about’ </sarcasm>
Wetherspoons didn’t make itself political. Politics was forced on it by the LOONY LEFT
I wouldn’t bother wasting time looking for the cuddly capitalist, you’d never get a pint.
Maybe not and simply a decision based on ethics, but some are so well known (i.e. Weatherspoons boss) they are very easy to avoid without having to do 2 seconds of research into the owner and I would avoid the place.
Avoiding the place is one thing - I do.
Blindly slagging off all those who don't is just another type of blinkered prejudice.
Reported that she offered to both barman and manager to remove her wig so she’d look (more) like her passport photo, but both refused.
Credit to them for not walking into that elephant trap
just another type of blinkered prejudice.
Yes, shit pubs have had centuries of prejudice and oppression. It's only now that society is coming round to their way of thinking and I we can only hope that one day all pubs will be viewed equally.
Credit to them for not walking into that elephant trap
Is that how you see it, as a trap? Trans girl goes out for a drink with mates, staff refuse to serve because she doesn't look like her photo, she explains why, they still don't accept it, resulting in her offering to show them why, and they still don't. And eject her.
Or are we still at DezB's 'I got turned away for wearing trainers and didn't cry about it' level of comprehension at the almost daily scrutiny and prejudice she will face.
Because it's nowhere close to the same thing.
From a purely practical perspective why, when she made the decision to change the way she presented herself to outside world, did she not get new id photos sorted?
The girl I worked with used to talk about her 'dead name' to describe her 'male' name she was given at birth. I would imagine you would have wanted to rid yourself of your old ID photo if you felt that way about your previous name.
Good and fair question. Practicality, as much as anything maybe? It's not easy to get official documents that are accepted with proof of age on, my son has travelled on his dead name passport for the last 2 summers and we are just now going through the legal process to adopt a new name and update it. It's going to cost several hundred which not everyone can easily afford.
But (not an accusation BTW) - that line of thought is getting a bit close for me to being a bit victim blamey. Should she have to, if she chose not to or couldn't for other reasons? Perhaps she should only go out as her old identity until she can get it changed. To avoid putting anyone in a difficult situation or trapping them?
From a purely practical perspective why, when she made the decision to change the way she presented herself to outside world, did she not get new id photos sorted?
My thoughts exactly. If your photo ID is sufficiently out of date that it doesn't look like you any more, surely you update your ID? Granted, passports are expensive to renew but there's plenty of other options.
Can someone find me someone who owns a chain or a brewery who isn’t a deeply unpleasant rapacious money grabber?
That isn't the problem with 'spoons to my mind. Rather that Poundland's Father Jack abused the position to turn them into political mouthpieces full of propaganda.
Granted, passports are expensive to renew but there’s plenty of other options.
Example?
Can someone find me someone who owns a chain or a brewery who isn’t a deeply unpleasant rapacious money grabber?
Easily. Would you like them alphabetically?
EDIT: link already posted.
OK. And what documentation do you need to have to get one of those?
For an online electronic validation:
We only accept the following documents for the Electronic ID Validation:
Passport (UK or International)
Photo Driving Licence (UK or European)
European National ID Card
Or if you want to apply by referee (a professional person not related to, in full time employment, etc.)
- Biometric Home Office photo ID
- Birth certificate
- Certified copy of a birth certificate
- Disclosure and Barring Service certificate (DBS)
- European National ID Card (can be up to 3 years expired)
- European Health Insurance Card
- Gender Recognition Certificate
- Ministry of Defence Form 90 (Defence Identity Card)
- NHS Medical Card
- Passport (UK or International; can be up to 3 years expired)
- Photo Driving Licence (UK or European; can be up to 3 years expired)
- Proof of Age Standards Scheme card
- Scottish marriage certificate (must state applicant's date of birth)
- UK Naturalisation Certificate
None of which are trivial if you don't already have verified ID in your trans identifty.
Or for ValidateUK (the second link)
Two documents from ‘list A’ or one document from ‘list A’ and one document from ‘list B’.
<h5>Acceptable documents</h5>
LIST A
- Birth certificate
- Copy of photo page of current passport
- Photo driving licence
- DBS Check
- Medical card or GP Registration letter
- UK Armed forces card
LIST B
- Utility Bill e.g. gas, electric, council tax
- Bank statement
- Building Society letter or statement
- Letter from a Government agency e.g. DWP, HMRC, Jobseekers
- European Health Insurance Card – E1-11
- University, school, college acceptance letter
- Blue Disabled Driver’s Pass
- Police Warrant Card
- Tenancy Agreement
- UK Border Agency Papers/Residency Permit
Honestly, we've looked at all this for my son, so he can have official docs in his name and to change some of these docs is possible but requires certified and witnessed original copies of Deed Poll documents. And as a minor he also needs our consent which may not be forthcoming in all situations. You can apply for gender recognition, which is another route but that requires you to have lived as your new identity for at least 2 years.
It is genuinely not easy, can be costly, time consuming and stressful. Not £15 and a few mouse clicks no matter what some seem to think.
Avoiding the place is one thing – I do.
Blindly slagging off all those who don’t is just another type of blinkered prejudice
Not everyone who drinks in wetherspoons is a ****, but all ****s drink in wetherspoons.
I'd rather support an independent local than a chain owned by a rabid Brexit fundamentalist who probably can't wait until he's allowed to get rid of pesky EU directives like safety standards and worker rights. If that makes me a snob so be it.
DezB’s ‘I got turned away for wearing trainers and didn’t cry about it’ level of comprehension
What can he mean?
Honestly, we’ve looked at all this for my son, so he can have official docs in his name and to change some of these docs is possible but requires certified and witnessed original copies of Deed Poll documents. And as a minor he also needs our consent which may not be forthcoming in all situations. You can apply for gender recognition, which is another route but that requires you to have lived as your new identity for at least 2 years.
It is genuinely not easy, can be costly, time consuming and stressful. Not £15 and a few mouse clicks no matter what some seem to think.
How easy do you think it should be to get an ID card?
You likened it yesterday to being turned away from a pub for being transgender (OK, for not having 'valid ID' but we all know there's more to it)
"she left Wetherspoons on Tuesday in tears after being told she would not be served
I got this far, then realised I didn’t care. I got turned away from a pub in Portsmouth once cos I was wearing trainers. I didn’t cry, I just went somewhere else.
Which I find shows either a lack of comprehension, or pretty offensive.
That's good to know theotherjonv - I appreciate (now) how much hassle it could be.
But.......you are talking from a position of wanting your new name on the ID too are you not - would it be the same level of hassle if you were prepared to have your dead name but a current photo on the ID?
Again - not trying to victim blame. But everyone who goes out for a drink wants a hassle free evening. If it helped you get that it's a win. Birth certificate, bank statement, new photo, £15 - jobs a goodun?
How easy do you think it should be to get an ID card?
I didn't say it should be easy. I said getting official ID with proof of age on such as a passport wasn't trivial, and you and others said there are lots of other options. Which as it turns out, 1/ there aren't and 2/ they pretty well all rely on having a passport or similar standard ID in the first place.
So yes - you're right. There are other options that you can get for £15 and a few mouse clicks, but unless you're going to argue semantics they do not answer the question / solve this problem.
if you were prepared to have your dead name but a current photo on the ID?
Factually true. Not easy. Do you want to try to talk my son into that?
Black men would like a hassle free existence too. IDK why they don't just drive round in shit old cars and not go out in the evening, for a hassle free existence?
Factually true. Not easy. Do you want to try to talk my son into that?
Well, this girl was walking around with an ID that had both her dead name and her old visual representation on it. So my proposal would be a 50% improvement would it not?
Agree - this is a really tough situation and one I didn't have to face.
yes, fair comment. She could have relatively easily got an ID card in her dead name but with a new photo.
I can't speak for her, but that wouldn't work in our situation - actually it's the name rather than the visual photo that creates the bigger issue. And we're not in pub going territory (yet)
Which I find shows either a lack of comprehension, or pretty offensive.
Oh. I find it offensive that you're comparing it to black issues. Who's offence is most important?
Complete aside (excepting partisanal potential for meta-confirmation-bias-bingo)
-What about if a black cyclist were refused entry to the pub?
-What if three black cyclists were refused entry?
-What if black cyclists were refused entry , and then some white people were allowed in?
-What if the pub said it was due to Covid19/social distancing?
-what if the three refused cyclists were to pay no heed, go and stand in the centre of the pub and thrice sing Land Of Hope Glory?
-Would this break prejudice and bigotry so hard that it would never recover?
Personally, I find yours worse. Because footwear is something you can change just like that. Gender identity, or skin colour, not.
At least, I don't think trainers are a protected characteristic yet?
Changing your gender on official documents sounds quite complicated and some of the requirements appear contradictory, never mind the cost. If the individual hasn't had surgery they also need a letter from their gp to say that they have lived as that gender and that the change is permanent, but what if you are still exploring who you are?
And maybe waiting for acceptance from colleagues, family and friends before making a transition to permanently assuming a different gender?
I understand that barstaff have to be vigilant of underage drinkers because of the consequences, but do you really think that a young lad would go to the effort of dressing up as a young woman just to get into a pub?
It takes a lot of strength and courage to make such huge changes to your appearance, I can imagine that the knock back has damaged her confidence further. It's good to see that 'spoons is acting compassionately and taking action by providing training.
@theotherjonv, thank you for providing your insight and all the best to your son.
https://gic.nhs.uk/info-support/changing-your-passport/
Quite:
It is a bit of a non-story, it’s been badly handled and Wetherspoons staff are apparently going to be better advised for the future which is a good outcome. The responses of some on here – to her and to Wetherspoons and their clientele – that’s a bigger issue for me.
Pubs and breweries are in a market which predetermines average costs and margins hence prices being broadly comparable as are the wage rates of bar staff. Friendly ethical capitalists have tried to step out of that model eg William Morris but none survive due to competition from the market cf Tony Elliott's Time Out and the City Limits co-op. It's a system not a collection of nice or nasty individuals.
After a bit of a think, I'm going to have to side with the Pub staff on this one.
I worked in a lot of pubs / bars when I was younger and if you're unfortunate enough to work in a Pub that younger people enjoy you are inundated by kids as young as 14 with dubious ID from shady stuff bought on the Internet to passports and driving licenses borrowed from older siblings or just off friends.
I feel for her, but especially in an age when you can buy booze on an app and have it delivered to a table, you're going to get every kid in miles trying it on.
Obviously it asks all manner of moral questions, but do we think some poor overworked, poorly paid Weatherspoons staff member, presented with it for the first time is going to be able to interpret Weatherspoons policy for themselves on the hop?
As I've had to explain to my Gay son on more than one occasion, the rate of change in society in regards to gender and sexuality has been massive over the last few years and whilst it's not fair, he had to accept the real world is struggling to keep up with the theoretical one.
Who is to blame? Well you can't expect Pubs to accept ID that doesn't match the holder, and the policies are quite clear - does the person look 21 / 25 depending on their policies, well no, she's 19, do they look like the picture in the ID? No, you can debate facial shape and all that, but we're talking about people here, not CSI.
Ultimately, if the Girl has transitioned, then her ID is no longer valid. You have to apply for a new Passport if you change your gender, or your appearance and she had done both. Yes it's a hassle and I'm sure it costs money, but that's life, it's not 'fair' but it is the same for everyone.
Not sure this is really a story, maybe the takeaway is if you're trans and look different enough from your photo to how you look now, maybe update your photo ID?
Wetherspoons or not, if they think someones trying to pull a fast one then they have the right to refuse service or be fined or possibly lose their license. As much as Tim Martin looks like James May had sex with a racist ghost, It's a bit of a leap to think that Wetherspoons sent a memo round with a list of minorities to refuse service to.......although, now I say that out loud it does seem plausible
do they look like the picture in the ID? No
You've seen the photoID then?
You have to apply for a new Passport if you change your gender
You make it sound so easy.
Currently: https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender + https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate
Attempts have been made to remove some of the hurdles in place, but the push back against those changes have been both vocal and effective.
Even by usual Wetherspoons standards The Counting House is a dump. Beautiful old bank, but it's right slap bang in the city centre, and a genuinely hellish experience full of some less than desirable characters. Given the pretty much non stop stream of people being thrown out by the bouncers in there, I don't envy the challenges the staff face.
I'm very aware that this is basically victim blaming, and I know attitudes will never change if people feel they need to hide away, but a trans teen is always running a risk going to The Counting House, both from knuckle dragging customers, as well as staff that don't have the appropriate training to understand and deal with the situation correctly.
Glasgow has a load of really good bars that are geared up to deal with this correctly, from the LGBTQ specific area/ bars around the Merchant City, to the places like Max's, Bloc, 13th Note etc, that have some really great attitudes and policies. I suspect however it's the lure of cheap drink that brings younger folk to a Wetherspoons, and then it's a gamble if they do happen to find an understanding member of staff that can deal with the situation correctly.
So you guys think that a young woman would cut their hair, wear a wig, claim they are trans and use a male passport just to get into a bar underage?
Bit elaborate is it not?
She explained why she doesn't look like that and that the passport was her official ID, which demonstrated that she's old enough. As has been said earlier there are many reasons as to why she may not have updated her passport. Yet the bar staff still refused her, which is clearly discrimination based in ignorance.
Where does that leave people who are gender fluid?
At home?
Yet the bar staff still refused her, which is clearly discrimination based in ignorance.
Which they've apologised for and learnt from. Obviously they'll never be a politically savvy as you, but what more do you want?
Surely the whole point of ID is for it to be of an accurate appearance of yourself.
The bar staff made the right decision.
It’s a bit of a leap to think that Wetherspoons sent a memo round with a list of minorities to refuse service to
That’s the leap that dare not speak it’s name. Unless maybe some opportunist I dunno, maybe Douglas Peterhood or Jordan Murrayson, looking out for some new material.
“The Left have this idea that Wetherspoons has, has, (they literally do think this) - they belieeeeeve in their heart of hearts that Wetherspoons, no really, they belieeeeeve that Wetherspoons (for our US viewers, I’d like to point out that Wetherspoons is a pro-Brexit UK pub company which sometimes functions as a popup campaign leaflet-distribution outlet currently running 879 pubs across the UK and is always, always (as far as ‘always‘ is practical) welcoming to all minorities...
...Where was I?
Yes, so to get back to the point. This article shows, again, and again, and again, and again, that The Left (or at least the ‘radical Left‘ inasmuch as one may determine these days) shows that The Left belieeeeeve (as do the minorities, or at least the radical minorities, we don’t have actual figures) ...this article AGAIN shows that they, they actually do belieeeeeeve that Wetherspoons...
... has an official policy of barring minorities!!! It is clearly insane. Well, The Woke 1% will finally have something to complain about when the 99% of The Rest Of Us finally get tired of their street-fires, their rape of our daughters, their pillaging of our resources, their knifings, their bombings, their riots and their flooding of our streets with sub-Saharan immigrants. We shall roll over. We shall scratch. And it won’t be pretty. Please click like and subscribe. And beware the Left and Radical Minorities. They may pretend or even believe with open naive hearts that there is such a thing as racism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc in Britain, when the exact opposite is true. But they use our better nature as a broad back in which to plunge their knife. They bully us into our quietest, meekest corners, and we (The 99%), we huddle ourselves, hardly daring to speak up as they roll up our sleeves and ‘vaccinate’ us against unWokeness with their compulsory Communistic needling. Our Town Halls have become autonomous zones where the insidious Marxist Agenda is fed into the lifeblood to sicken our once-healthy People with the disease of Wokeness. A strange word to use for a pox. For a blight on our once Proud Nation. Every Woke-Warrior on The Left really do believe that they are vaccinating us from ourselves, and for our own good. Well, they will soon have something to complain about... Etc’. </satire>
I understand peoples views but... the law is the law and its down to the person regardless of gender to provide ID when asked.
An operator should always urge on the side of caution as its a licensing objective to protect those who are under 18 including those who appear to be. Big fines, prosecution not to mention the damage in reputation amongst other pitfalls for not doing the basics.
Common sense normally prevails but having been in the industry for 20yrs the perception of the public of what can and can't happen is murky at best in many situations.
Granted Spoons aren't known for being tactful or customer service but they have to operate within the law as do all operators. Anyone can be refused entrance by a DPS/license holder regardless and that's is the simple truth
