Can someone explain the CIS thing to me ?
CIS means the same, trans means different.
@Poah sorry chap im just a thicko bike mechanic I dont understand it at all Google search just makes me scratch my head as is.
Citizenship card: Costs £12 and takes 21 days. Card posted by Royal Mail 2nd class post
(or you can do the “urgent”) ..Cost: less than 3 pints
Really doesn’t seem to be THAT difficult considering…
another one that doesn't read the thread
What kind of evidence do you need to be able to get a citizenship card then?
Clue: it's very easy if you've already got official ID in the name and image you want. If you haven't it's remarkably hard, possibly with justification. Hence why allowances need to be made in situations like these.
My BiL has neither passport nor driving license but needed photo ID to take internal UK flights. He got a Citizens Card without any hassle.
what did he use as proof of identity then?
Do pubs actually accept those Citizen Card things? Seems to be a few different brands for proof of age cards. Which ones do the bar staff actually recognise?
How do they know its not fake?
oh and +1 to faerie about ATG/Rachel
I hate to think what she's thinking if she still lurks and is reading some of the prejudice still being shown on here.
She was a star in helping me to come to terms and ask the right questions when my then daughter came out to us 2 years ago about how she couldn't go on living in her body any more and just wanted to go to sleep and never wake up. About how she wanted to take a knife to her own breast buds. How we still battle every month about why he can't get treated by UK law and as a result has to bleed into his pants every month because he was born in the wrong body and refuses to use tampons. Tough to read? How hard do you think it is for a child to live that?
So yeah, when someone refuses to recognise your new identity whether from prejudice or ignorance, it's a lot more ***ing raw than just going on to the next place and not crying about it.
Jon, I think your son is lucky to have you as his father. Ignore the idiots here.
Seems to be a few different brands for proof of age cards.
Some of the accredited brands are here:
https://www.pass-scheme.org.uk/card-suppliers/
And, yes, they are generally laughed at in pubs, good for age related travel and entertainment tickets though (where getting it wrong just risks someone getting a cheap ticket). Young people use passports and driving licences for a reason… they are easy to recognise and hard to fake… and it’s important that staff learn to accept the mismatching that occurs with people transitioning, especially young people who can not easily get their documents to match their gender, because the current law around this is an arse. I have no idea if the staff in this example got this wrong this time, but it’s good to hear the chain taking the issue seriously. No idea why so many of us can’t do likewise.
faerie
The same arguments in favour of prejudice are being recycled, despite evidence to show that what they did is wrong. According to the law a refusal in this situation is clearly discriminatory, which is why she’s received an apology. Arguing against it just demonstrates how set people are in their ways and unable to extend empathy to those they don’t understand.
What evidence, and specifically what law shows a refusal in this case to be clearly discriminatory? Please don't refer me to the PDF you posted, it is not law.
The licensing acts for both England & Wales and Scotland specify that evidence of age provided by a punter must be sufficient to convince a reasonable person.
Given you can get a criminal record for selling items to underage people. If you don't look like the picture in the ID of course people are going to be really careful.
A person should change their ID to match their look. Storm in a teacup.
What if they don’t always look the same? Wear wigs? Dye their hair… etc, etc… you must have the imagination to realise that a young person going through this… no scratch that… any young person… might be changing how they look at this time of their life, especially when on a night out. And the ‘big’ documents are expensive and difficult to change. People don’t have to change their “look” to match their ID, or visa versa, you just have to be able or tell it is them in the photo.
A person should change their ID to match their look. Storm in a teacup.
Read the thread before commenting, eh?
Cougar it's rather a stretch but possible, and not what happened here.
Retro83 that PDF from the Home Office refers to the legislative Equality Act 2010 part 2, chapter 1, section 7 which is law. Would you like me to post a link to it?
I think a few people would benefit from reading it.
Can someone explain the CIS thing to me
+1
I don't think cougar's reply made it any clearer.
faerie
Retro83 that PDF from the Home Office refers to the legislative Equality Act 2010 part 2, chapter 1, section 7 which is law. Would you like me to post a link to it?
I think a few people would benefit from reading it.
No thank-you faerie, i'd just like you to explain specifically what bit of law you are talking about which defines the action the barkeeps have taken as being discriminatory because I don't understand why you think it is.
Do pubs actually accept those Citizen Card things?
IME from my days as an underage alcoholic-in-training, many pubs don't care. Rather, it's arse-covering, the police turn up and find a bunch of pissed 16 year olds, the pub goes "well, they had ID." End of. Times might've changed in the intermediate 30 years though.
Cougar it’s rather a stretch but possible, and not what happened here.
It's not a stretch in the slightest, back when I was nominally underage some of my peers borrowed older siblings' ID plenty of times. I remember being a mid-teens teenager, I was a big ol' introverted swot and even I had fake ID. Getting served in a pub at 16-17 was pretty much competitive.
It's not what actually happened here this is true, but put on the spot in the heat of the moment and without the benefit of hindsight is it not plausible that that's what the staff incorrectly assumed?
A pub is presented with a teenager wearing a long blonde wig and an ID that they seemingly bear no resemblance to and says 'male' on it, is it so outlandish to countenance that they just didn't want the hassle of potentially serving underage drinkers, rather than leaping to the conclusion with cast iron certainty that they kicked her out because they were bigots?
defines the action the barkeeps have taken as being discriminatory
I don’t think anyone has said that they know enough about the story to say that anyone broke any laws, or indeed acted in a discriminatory way, but faerie is drawing attention to the protection in law that others seem to think do not exist, or can be ignored due to good old common sense (prejudice).
that they kicked her out because they were bigots?
Mistakes can be made. Staff need to be trained to not treat a young person using ID which seemingly does not match the gender they present as somehow pulling a fast one. The company involved have said they aim to do better in this regard. Well done them. No one is haranguing the staff. Some people are desperate to paint this is a non-event, and that apologies and promises to do better are unnecessary. Or worse, comparing the effect on the life of the woman involved to them not wearing the right footwear.
kelvin
I don’t think anyone has said that they know enough about the story to say that anyone broke any laws, but faerie is drawing attention to the protection in law that others seem to think do not exist, or can be ignored due to good old common sense (prejudice).
With respect, I think that is what faerie is suggesting:
faerie
According to the law a refusal in this situation is clearly discriminatory, which is why she’s received an apology.
I don’t think cougar’s reply made it any clearer.
It means that the gender prescribed to you at birth is in line with your actual gender. Ie, most people. For many CIS people it is demonstrably difficult to countenance any other situation but for many wide and varied reasons it does happen and despite what the TERFs would have you believe it's nothing to do with creating a cover story in order to molest women in toilets.
To put that another way, you know the ever-increasing LGBT+ acronym? If you've never considered that any of that applies to you, you're CIS.
Personally I hate the term, it's all too often used pejoratively, but here we are and my gripe of language is of lesser import.
TERFs
Really Cougar?
With respect, I think that is what faerie is suggesting
The protection in law is there, it is bound to be one of the factors informing an apology, but that does not mean they are admitting to breaking the law, or that they would be found to have done so if it went to court… and none of know if they would be, we don’t know enough of the details. We haven’t even seen the photoID.
Act 2010 part 2, chapter 1, section 7 which is law
Im not sure that section is relevant here, it merely defines the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Or a transexual. The young lady describes herself as transgender, and no mention is made or her intent to transition sex, as the act refers to.
Are you sure you have the right section?
Staff need to be trained to not treat a young person using ID which seemingly does not match the gender they present as somehow pulling a fast one.
I 100% agree with you. But again, is this what happened?
If the problem was that it said M rather than F on the passport then absolutely, this is bang out of order and very clearly a training issue.
If the problem was that she looked nowt like her photo ID then not so much. That's what photo ID is for, otherwise what you have there is "ID."
It's a complex situation and jumping to either conclusion is problematic. Trans people need consideration and empathy, but teenagers are sneaky bastards. If aged 17 I'd thought that I could get served in pubs if I borrowed my brother's ID and got my sister to slap a bit of lippy on me as a diversionary tactic then the only thing that would have stopped me was the fact I was an only child. It's really, really not a great leap that bar staff might have erred on the side of caution here. They just unfortunately got it wrong in this case.
The fact that they're now going to train staff to recognise trans people and apply a bit more sensitivity rather than default assuming "git in a wig" is great, that should be the take-away from all this.
Really Cougar?
Dunno what specifically you're "really"ing at, but that wasn't directed at anyone posting here.
But again, is this what happened?
Again, I have no idea. I haven’t seen the ID. I don’t know enough about what happened. And nor do those saying it is down to the individual to make their ID match their “look”, or that being wrongly turned away in these circumstances is like being turned away for wearing trainers.
I have no idea if the staff got it wrong, and the chain seems to have handled this all very well. Why has that invited so many people to post so much nonsense about the problems faced by young trans people as regards ID though?
nor do those saying it is down to the individual to make their ID match their “look”
Well, sure. People change their 'look' all the time. I have friends who don't have the same haircut month-to-month. Most of my photo ID is sporting ponytail and goatee, I've had neither for years. Yet I still get recognised by people I haven't seen since infant school, I don't even recognise me from back then. It would be ludicrous to suggest that I get a new passport every time I shave.
Yet in this tale, the victim was sufficiently different from their photo ID that they were allegedly unrecognisable. So either:
a) the 'spoons staff were talking bollocks,
b) she should have updated her ID,
c) she should realise and accept that her photo ID is no longer valid.
And I appreciate (with Jon's input, thank you) how difficult b) might be, she might not want to do that until she's got other ducks in a row and can change everything over in one bounce. But it says in that very article that she's been having issues with ID for 18 months now so refusal shouldn't have been sufficient of a surprise that she ran away crying unless there's more to it than reported and the staff were being horrible to her about it.
a) the ‘spoons staff were talking bollocks
We can’t know, we haven’t seen the photoID. It could be that they made no real effort to see if it was the same person in the photo given the information that she was trans. We can’t judge that.
But it says in that very article that she’s been having issues with ID for 18 months now so refusal shouldn’t have been sufficient of a surprise that she ran away crying
If on previous occasions, an explanation from her, and a second close look at the ID, has proven sufficient… then not having her explanation excepted this time could obviously still be upsetting, not hard to empathise with that, is it?
Agreed.
But we can't automatically conclude the opposite either. As you say, we can't know.
And y'know,
If we saw both her and the ID, that wouldn't necessarily change anything. Unless it was very obviously the same person or very obviously apparently not, it's all subjective.
Which is why, from the start of this thread, I have said that we can not judge the staff … but then people are keen to judge the woman … just as you have by saying she shouldn’t be upset when her explanation of being trans didn’t lead to the reappraisal of her ID in the way she was expecting … or that she should have updated her ID, when there can be many reasons for a young trans person not doing so, or not being able to do so.
then not having her explanation excepted this time could obviously still be upsetting, not hard to empathise with that, is it?
Fair. But again, as you say, we can’t know. We're five pages of speculation in now, what you're suggesting here is broadly what I was suggesting also, which is that the 'spoons staff could well have been atypically unpleasant about it.
Or not, of course.
i’d just like you to explain specifically what bit of law you are talking about which defines the action the barkeeps have taken as being discriminatory because I don’t understand why you think it is.
Are you after a page number too? I've provided the Home Office guide for doorstaff and the piece of legislation that it refers to, coupled with the fact that the company has apologised and is promised to provide further training; yet you still think I am wrong?
You are aware that discrimination isn't just hate, it's ignorance too? In some cases the ignorance is wilful, and if that ignorance results in you unintentionally committing a hate crime then the individual is responsible for the consequences. Which is why the company has apologised for their mistake.
Some people are looking for excuses to justify their prejudices, it's getting lame
I have said that we can not judge the staff … but then people are keen to judge the woman
Hang on. I'm not judging anyone, apologies if that's how it appeared. Rather I'm trying to be objective when presented with minimal information.
just as you have by saying she shouldn’t be upset
I didn't say that, I said she shouldn't be really surprised when by her own admission this has been the case for months. She's every right to be upset but on the face of it I don't see why this one case upset her unless it's different from the others. What did 'spoons staff do differently, did they boot her out when previous challenges have gone "oh, right, OK then"?
there can be many reasons for a young trans person not doing so, or not being able to do so.
I said exactly this.
I’m not judging anyone, apologies if that’s how it appeared.
No, I don't think you were judging her really... but others have made out that it's all on her to keep her ID "up to date" in a way not expected of the rest of us, and not a realistic expectation, and likened her experience to being turned away for wearing trainers, and that training staff to appreciate the issues around ID and young trans people was unnecessary. We all need to learn more as regards all this... but some are proud of refusing to learn... and want young trans people to bend to our expectations, rather than have us learn more about their lives so as to accommodate them... even in the centre of our society... our pubs.
Are you after a page number too? I’ve provided the Home Office guide for doorstaff and the piece of legislation that it refers to
The piece of legislation you referenced states that gender reassignment is a protected characteristic, which I doubt that many readers of this thread didn't already know. I don't think it carries with it a mandate to serve potentially underage drinkers. And as our Retro friend suggests, "guidance for doormen" is not legislation.
If you're going to cite laws to back up your argument then this is STW so yes absolutely, page number please. We all have a burden of proof in our assertions otherwise without qualification an equally valid counter-argument is "no it isn't."
coupled with the fact that the company has apologised and is promised to provide further training; yet you still think I am wrong?
I think they've shat themselves and are now arse-covering, I don't see any bearing on your rightness or wrongness here.
Some people are looking for excuses to justify their prejudices
Some people are looking for prejudice.
others have made out that it’s all on her to keep her ID “up to date” in a way not expected of the rest of us,
Credit where it's due, that's bang on the money. Thank you.
Read the thread before commenting, eh?
Sorry but the gender of the person is irrelevant. Doesn't matter what you think you are. If your appearance does not match the photo then why would you accept it.
Like I said - storm in a tea cup. Heck it isn't even worth while news.
Your appearance doesn’t have to “match”, it has to be possible to tell that you are you from your photo. Staff already have to cope with people growing beards, changing their hair colour or style, wearing contact lenses or loads of makeup for a night out when they don’t in day to day life… some staff (again, might not be the case here, we can’t tell, the woman in the story may not be identifiable from her photoID) will need training and guidance to cope with young trans people and the difference between how they present themselves down the pub and what their official ID says and shows.
no scratch that… any young person… might be changing how they look at this time of their life
Yup ... and tens of thousands of them don't get served ...
A pub is presented with a teenager wearing a long blonde wig and an ID that they seemingly bear no resemblance to and says ‘male’ on it, is it so outlandish to countenance that they just didn’t want the hassle of potentially serving underage drinkers, rather than leaping to the conclusion with cast iron certainty that they kicked her out because they were bigots?
It's a bit more than hassle, it's a criminal offence and it is down to the individual not the bar.
Mistakes can be made. Staff need to be trained to not treat a young person using ID which seemingly does not match the gender they present as somehow pulling a fast one
Staff are trained to assume every teenager is trying to pull a fast one.
This seems fairly sensible given most people I know it was a right of passage to get served underage.
And, yes, they are generally laughed at in pubs, good for age related travel and entertainment tickets though (where getting it wrong just risks someone getting a cheap ticket). Young people use passports and driving licences for a reason
Yet as I said earlier corroborates their other photo ID.
and as I said earlier getting some corroborating ID is hardly in the top 10 difficult things for a teen that is transitioning.
Quite a few thought provoking posts and it looks like the barman might have been in al lose-lose situation.
Picture a similar scenario- young group of people want a drink so barman asks the youngest looking for ID. She presents a passport where (subjectively, to the barmans eyes) the picture doesnt look like the customer. He is going to refuse service, until the customer says she us Transgender and hasn't changed her ID. She starts quoting discrimination legislation so the barman decides just to serve them booze.
A few hours, and several drinks later (barman didn't realise how drunk they were as they had to remain seated and ordered via an app), the group leave the bar, the Transgender customer then is seriously injured (or worse) by staggering onto a busy road/into a canal.
At the investigation, it turns out she was 16 and had used her 19year old brothers passport for ID........
What is the point of a photo on photo ID?
(Though I sometime have a beard and sometimes not, I’ve never been queried about it).
My passport photo is a clean shaven me, applied for just before i decided to grow a beard.
UK Borders use the facecamera doodad, and that never recognises me, so i have to go to the real people queue.
Once, the guy in the box said he didn't believe it was me, made me sign a piece of paper to prove it was me (to compare the signatures)
Then he asked me where I was going "Basildon" i replied and he must have known no-one in their right mind would want to go there voluntarily, and waved me through.
/CSB
Anybody won yet?
Most of my photo ID is sporting ponytail and goatee, I’ve had neither for years.
Photos or it didn't happen.
Cougar as Baader-Meinhof gang member...
😄
Anybody won yet?
It was a long race for the amount of information provided.
OP was winning from the off. Bait was swallowed whole. Turned out everyone (excepting Hugo) is ‘naive’ and that it was an anti-Wetherspoons trap set by the teenager in question. Possibly with collusion from the Biased Broadcasting Communist ‘reporter’ and the LGBT brigade.
As a coup de grâce OP threw the chew-toy/witch/ball under a bus car and ding dong/end of thread.
Can we do the three black cyclists now? </sarcasm>
No-one won, but a few losers outed themselves.
