[Closed] Tottenham Riots

One thing about this story that rings false to me - I am not sure that I have ever seen a sock strong enough to hold a handgun to someones leg...

Maybe it was one of those sock puppets?

Everyone in edmonton enfield woodgreen everywhere in north link up at enfield town station 4 o clock sharp!!!! Start leaving ur yards n linking up with you ****. Guck da feds, bring your ballys and your bags trollys, cars vans, hammers the lot!! Keep sending this around to bare man, make sure no snitch boys get dis!!! What ever ends your from put your ballys on link up and cause havic, just rob everything. Police can't stop it. Dead the fires though!! Rebroadcast!!!!!"

aha, break out the Enigma's!

[img] [/img]

Zulu-Eleven

Are you suggesting that the police shot this bloke without issuing a challenge?

Certainly very possible as they have done this before many times. Infact I will go further and state that they cops will claim to have been under threat when they opened fire but infact there was no conceivable threat at all - just like Harry Stanley or Jean de Menezes or anyone of a load of other innocent men shot by the met.

Its only my guess but based on the information - or deliberate disinformation coming from the police.

[img] [/img]

break out the Enigma's!

Is there a message hidden in that [s]apostrophe[/s] microdot? 😉

Infact I will go further and state that they cops will claim to have been under threat when they opened fire but infact there was no conceivable threat at all

no [b]conceivable[/b] threat?

You mean apart from the fact that he was known to be carrying an illegally held firearm

personally, I'd suggest that somebody carrying an illegally held firearm constitutes the very definition of a [b]conceivable[/b] threat, in fact it would fulfill the definition of a clear, realistic and identifiable threat.

or are you now going to tell us that the police were wrong, and he didn't have a gun at all?

or are you now going to tell us that the police were wrong, and he didn't have a gun at all?

I wouldn't bet my house against that particular piece of information coming to light within the next week. To go back to the De Menezes case, at this point in proceedings we were still being told all kinds of crap about backpacks and suicide vests and sprinting through stations vaulting over barriers to evade police.

All of it turned out to be a complete pack of lies from the met to try to cover their own arses having shot a completely innocent bloke who posed no threat to anyone

My money is on The police conduct a " hard stop" he panicked and did a stupid move or gesture officer let a round off other officers fired one officer caught in radio by police bullet either missing target or ricochet. I have absolutely no evidence what so ever to support this assertion.

We may find out the truth in a few months. There is no way any one can accurately assess what happened until the postmortem forensics and eye witness evidence has been gathered and assessed.

 

Was Charles De Menezes acting like a penis? I was under the impression he was just getting on a tube train

I was under the impression he was challenged by armed police prior to entering the tube station.. He ignored this, vaulted the barriers and ran onto the nearest tube,

I think there is a big difference here between De Menezes and the guy last week - Duggan was known to the police and was the subject of an operation. De Menezes appeared to be nothing more than a kid who panicked in the face of the threat.

He ignored this, vaulted the barriers and ran onto the nearest tube

actually binners, I think you'll find that the press had printed all sorts of unverified on and off the record briefings, second and third hand witness accounts, and rumours - which once again goes to prove the importance of waiting till the official facts are known and investigation completes before going to press.

again, the police were damned if they did, damned if they didn't!

I think there is a big difference here between De Menezes and the guy last week - Duggan was known to the police and was the subject of an operation. De Menezes appeared to be nothing more than a kid who panicked in the face of the threat.

There was no indication of De Menzes panicking he never had the opportunity to.

Has it actually been confirmed that Duggan was a known criminal, or are you just assuming police leaks are facts.

I'm sure there's a lot of 'cap fits' excuses for the despicable behaviour of these rioters. Violence should never give rise to government yielding!!

The disenfranchisement of the black community is down to attitude. Take employers for example, they like Eastern Europeans because of their alleged work ethic.

As a so called workshy unemployed person, i found this sort of racist drivel highly offensive. I couldn't get a job because agencies wouldn't put me forward. The reasons elude me to this day, but i can only guess.

In a copy of the Metro, i read that 40% of workers in London are not of UK berth. For the lower income bracket, this rises to 60% . I am lead to believe that most of these people are legitimate EU nationals (welcomed here with open arms - quote Jack Straw).

The great EU socialist experiment is costing us dear! Anyone can come here and benefits are world beating.

Unfortunately, the MEPs didn't factor the benefits deadlock a lot of poorer people would find themselves in.

In summary, this riot situation has more to do with socialism than our current coallition.

I'm sure a few far left wing aggitators are at the route of this trouble. They were last time in the 1980's. I have no doubt as i witnessed a far left wing aggitator being let out of the locked boot of a car at a petrol station on tha Epping New road, late one night after the riots ceased.

I feel very sorry for all the innocent people affected by this violence!

Well teh police misinformation got both of you,
De Menezes did not panic, did not vault barriers, infact did nothing at all bar walk onto the tube ina normalmanner. he was restrained on the ground by a police officer when another police officer shot him multiple times it the head.

to me there appear lots of similarities. Police misinformation campaign, possible over hyped police who shoot first and ask questions afterwards.

Still -the truth will out eventually as it did over de Menezes although the police misinformation campaign from that incident clearly has worked giving the public a false impression of what happened

actually binners, I think you'll find that the press had printed all sorts of unverified on and off the record briefings, second and third hand witness accounts, and rumours - which once again goes to prove the importance of waiting till the official facts are known and investigation completes before going to press.

Hmmmmm - its a good job we've no incidence of any collusion between senior Met officers and members of the press eh? I mean.... nothing like that could possibly happen, could it?

Oh..... hang on a minute.....

Going ot but: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1496382/Shot-Brazilian-did-not-jump-barrier-and-run.html

Documents and photographs leaked to ITV News also confirmed that Mr de Menezes did not run from the police, as had been reported, had used his Tube pass to enter the station, rather than vault the barrier, and had taken a seat on the train before being grabbed by an officer.

It's sad that so many people (and not just the idiotic wannabe grew-up-in-the-hoodz police-haters) have so little faith in the police but it's not that suprising sadly when things like the above happen and numberous reports of institutional issues have been published.

I was under the impression he was challenged by armed police prior to entering the tube station.. He ignored this, vaulted the barriers and ran onto the nearest tube,

Your impression is wrong, 5 seconds on google would tell you that.

And going back to De Menezes, all the officers said they shouted 'armed police' warnings before they shot him

Turns out at the inquest - according to all the witnesses - that they didn't at all!

Like I said.... I suspect there's a lot more to this than meets the eye. And I suspect the police are presently involved in 'getting their stories straight'

I am actually gobsmacked that anyone doesn"t now know the actual events of the De Menez case.

I am actually gobsmacked that anyone doesn"t now know the actual events of the De Menez case.

It's pretty sad isn't it?

TJ - exactly what police "misinformation" has been published in this case

As far as I can see, the only things actually said by the Police or IPCC are identifiable facts, and they've been very careful to do only that.

What you're doing, is reading rumours, newspaper interpretation, suggestions, thoughts and commentary - and turning them in to "police misinformation" - they're not, they're press misinformation!

I'm slightly surprised that you're surprised.
A great deal of the population pay very little attention to the news.
And given the actual amount of influence that most of the population have over events, or the events over them, it's a fairly understandable position.
No doubt on some other forum someone has recently been shocked to find out that another poster doesn't even know who Peter Andre is currently dating 🙂

turning them in to "police misinformation" - they're not, they're press misinformation!

Are you by any chance aware of a little bit of an incident going on recently involving the two senior officers in the Met and a little local London rag called the News of the World? Given what that threw up, where do you think the press are getting this 'misinformation'?

My guess is its being spoon-fed, all off the record of course, to tame right-wing journalists. So that peoples perceptions are crystalised before anything as inconvenient as 'facts' emerge

After all.... that's certainly the way its been done until now. Or are we to believe that the Met has now ceased that kind of behavior since a couple of people fell on their swords? Yeah, right!

So the police are spoon feeding the media info that one of their officers took a pot-shot at another officer and they shot some bloke on his way home in a cab to cover it up? I know people say the Met bungle things but if that's their way to positively spin things, this is a new low. 🙄

My [b]guess[/b] is its being spoon-fed

Oh, a [b]guess[/b], well, thats good enough to form national policy on 🙄

I suppose we should go out into the streets and riot based upon your guess as well

Tell you what - I [b]guess[/b] that this is the start of an armed rebellion, and therefore we should impose martial law, and shoot all rioters and looters - thats a good enough balance of proof isn't it binners

I think there is a big difference here between De Menezes and the guy last week - Duggan was known to the police and was the subject of an operation. De Menezes appeared to be nothing more than a kid who panicked in the face of the threat.

He ignored this, vaulted the barriers and ran onto the nearest tube

That sounds about right - daft pillock panicked probably because he thought he was about to get a fine for not having a ticket or something silly like that.

dememezes did not panic in the face of a threat in any way

he got on a bus, realised traffic was gridlocked got off the bus
walked to the tube station, entered with his oyster card
and then as the tube was pulling in ran for the tube and sat down

the police that followed him vaulted the barrier
(widely reported as a the suicide bomber running onto the train- the police then told the coroner this and he put it in his report 5 days later, the met did not correct this version of events for several days)

the police ran on to the tube pointed guns at him he stood up, one of the police grabbed him forced him back into his seat him and then shot him 7 times in the head and once in the shoulder (with hollow points)

the inquiry judge said that the police failed to identify themselves as police before shooting him and then colluded to lie about that fact afterwards

its amazing that so many people are still unaware that what they think they know about that event was the original lies/misinformation put out by the police

Has it actually been confirmed that Duggan was a known criminal, or are you just assuming police leaks are facts.

🙄

What I'm suggesting is that in the Menzes case, the police deliberately, both on and off the record, created a picture of the situation as-it-happened that was completely misleading and dishonest. They did so again when Ian Tomlinson died

They're presently displaying all the hallmarks of doing exactly the same again

(Pokes head round door, looks in, sees it's the same old same old, goes for a swim)

Have you got your arm-bands Fred?

Tell you what - I guess that this is the start of an armed rebellion, and therefore we should impose martial law, and shoot all rioters and looters - thats a good enough balance of proof isn't it binners

Oh behave yourself. A fairly simple point is being made here: the police have form when it comes to telling lies after shooting someone. So there's no particular reason to believe their version of events.

binners - Member
Have you got your arm-bands Fred?

Post of the day! PMSL!

the police deliberately, both on and off the record, created a picture of the situation as-it-happened that was completely misleading and dishonest. They did so again when Ian Tomlinson died

I'd say that this is a fairly extensive debunking of your claim Binners

[i]IPCC Commissioner Deborah Glass said there is no evidence that any press officer, or any police officer responsible for agreeing media lines, set out to mislead anyone, or that the police attempted to cover up the circumstances of his death.
[/i]

and Harry Stanley - lets not forget him. Shot for carrying a table leg.

Mohammed Abdul Kahar. shot for wearing a beard in a dangerous manner.

James ashley. Shot for being in bed.

there is a pattern of events here that needs to be dealt with. I believe very strongly that individual officers should not be singled out for punishment over these incidents as we need to know the truth to prevent it happening again.

What seems pretty clear is that the cops get over hyped up and are in such a hair trigger that they make the wrong decisions and shoot when there is no threat to them. Its happened too often to be coincidence - something is going wrong with the training, briefing, selection or something with these incidents. I'm sure its devastating for the officers as well - but collusion, misinformation and cover up prevents us getting to the bottom of the reasons why.

Mohammed Abdul Kahar. shot for wearing a beard in a dangerous manner.

Shouldn't really but that is quite funny in an absurd way, TJ 😉

IPCC Commissioner Deborah Glass said there is no evidence that any press officer, or any police officer responsible for agreeing media lines, set out to mislead anyone

Have you been living in a cave for the last few weeks? There was a little bit of a thing about senior officers in the Met having 'off the record' briefings with friendly and receptive right-wing journalists. Cash was changing hands. It was all very cozy indeed. You may not have noticed but the two senior officers in the whole organisation had to resign

If you think that the only information coming from the Met is coming via press officers then you really are hoplessly naive

And FFS! The IPCC? Well that's alright then isn't it? They're a completely independent body aren't they? With no vested interest? 🙄

Have you seen the beard clubber? clearly a threat

[img] [/img]

TJ - there's one big difference

This one DID have a gun

Do you get that?

He had an illegally held gun - therefore, he was a real, identifiable threat.

It was NOT a table leg in a carrier bag

it was a gun!

They may well have guns hidden in there TJ.

How do you know that Zulu?

He had an illegally held gun - therefore, he was a real, identifiable threat.

All depends really doesn't it. To some extent you're right but at the moment, there's clearly a lot of lies/mistruths being told on all sides to fit the story they want so until we know for sure, it's all just conjecture.

Otherwise, I can refute your suggestion by saying that maybe the gun was in a locked box in the minicab that he had no access to and it only fell out once the bloke was shot and the bullet blew open the box.

there's clearly a lot of lies/mistruths being told on all sides

All we really know for sure is that "TJ and Cynic-al will have at least one constructive disagreement before August is out"

So if I say "I predict TJ and Cynic-al will have at least one lover's tiff before August is out" I can be a visionary too?

Shouldn't really but that is quite funny in an absurd way, TJ

Hackney, currently...

Zulu-Eleven - Member

He had an illegally held gun - therefore, he was a real, identifiable threat.

Doesn't carry the death sentence last time I looked. A gun isn't a threat unless it's used. Maybe the shooting was justified, maybe not but "He had a gun therefore it was completely fine to shoot him" doesn't wash.

Interesting quote in an earlier linked article.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8687403/London-riots-Dead-man-Mark-Duggan-was-a-known-gangster-who-lived-by-the-gun.html

A police source said: "I was told he was a major player and well known to the police in Tottenham. He was certainly not a sideshow.

"You are not going to waste a surveillance team, Trident team and CO19 armed team on someone who is on the periphery. We do not have those kind of resources."

Basically seems that the police logic is, we shoot bad guys, we shot Duggan, therefore Duggan is a bad guy

Well Clubber, its always possible that in fact he was a Firearms certificate holder, with one of the very small numbers of certificates issued for pistols, for dispatch of wounded animals and pests.

Maybe he was a professional pest controller? On his way (in a minicab), to dispatch a deer that had been hit on the road, or a fox in a trap - you never know, its possible innit?

A police source said: "I was told he was a major player and well known to the police in Tottenham. He was certainly not a sideshow

That reads to me that they found a policeman who has a mate who works in Tottenham, got a tiny bit of info about who was involved and is making random guesses. Totally pointless quote and shoddy journalism.

Exactly. Thanks for making my point, Z11.

Zulu - or maybe the gun belonged to the driver, had been left in the cab, was a replica, belonged to someone else all together?

If I was in a cab and I found myself with police guns trained on me I think I would have my arms firmly in the air, not grabbing for a gun (real or replica) that just happened to be left in the cab and proceeding to wave it around. In a sock.

so how do you know thats what happened MF? He waved the gun around did he?

Any evidence that he waved the gun around?

TJ, I was using comic effect.

Which doesn't work on you of course.

🙄

all kicking off in Hackney
my local Sainsbury's has closed just in case
tension in Lewisham
.
I'm going to stock up on spam and nylons
tin foil hat at the ready

'kin chavs are ransacking a sports shop in Hackney now. If i was in charge the snipers would be out on the roof tops as i type. Would sort the rioting and the over crowding issues out. Two birds, one stone

Oh it was funny, right
😆
😆
😆
Actually I think if it was you mf, you'd have put your hands up and shouted 'I HAVE TWINS YOU KNOW'

Well I was having a go at lowering the tone.

😐

Actually I think if it was you mf, you'd have put your hands up and shouted 'I HAVE TWINS YOU KNOW'

I also reckon the police would shout back 'yeah we f@?£ing know!!'
🙂

[url= http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot ]MSNBC's take on it[/url]

...here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere.

I've not read the previous nine pages of squabbling however I've just seen it kicking off in 'that London' again and seeing the brazen way those scrotes are behaving I'd be surprised if there aren't more serious injuries or death. The unfortunate thing is that if one of the rioters is killed the police will be blamed, however if a policeman is killed the rioters will be boasting about it. I'm not condoning there actions of the police, but they are in a bit of a no win position!

Lewisham too now.

its ok theresa may has now said that violence is unnaceptable, thatll sort them right out

this article was written 9 days ago
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/29/young-people-gangs-youth-clubs-close ]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/29/young-people-gangs-youth-clubs-close [/url]

"The young people in Tottenham, they are not so much a community within a community, they are a community beyond the community, with their own rules, their own codes, their own hierarchy," said Symeon Brown, 22, who helped run a campaign to prevent the cuts in Haringey. "How do you create a ghetto? By taking away the very services that people depend upon to live, to better themselves."

Professor John Pitts, who has researched gang behaviour for more than 40 years, says the "annihilation" of youth services, coupled with academies likely to favour middle-class students over disadvantaged children, could further disconnect young people from society and result in more entrenched gangs.

"Services are not just being taken away from young people, they are being taken from poor young people," he said.

"At a simple level that could mean an increase in antisocial behaviour and vandalism. In the longer term, if you withdraw state protection then there will be ever greater reliance on the groupings that emerge in that vacuum."

I know that if I lived somewhere where these imported scrotes were trashing the place I'd take great delight in sitting in an upstairs darkened room by an open window with one of these:
[img] [/img]
and a big bag of these:
[img] [/img]
Scumbags.

CountZero - Member

......... imported scrotes............

Imported from where? By whom?

I know that if I lived somewhere where these imported scrotes

Racist... I think you'll find the majority (particularly those currently in action tonight) are your average estate ned out for mischief, 'British Bred' through and through and supporters of the Engurland Soccer team too no doubt...

Heh

http://yfrog.com/h26oee8j

I read the term 'imported scrotes' as meaning the scum that come from outside the area where the looting is, spurred on by things such as:

Everyone in edmonton enfield woodgreen everywhere in north link up at enfield town station 4 o clock sharp!!!! Start leaving ur yards n linking up with you ****. Guck da feds, bring your ballys and your bags trollys, cars vans, hammers the lot!! Keep sending this around to bare man, make sure no snitch boys get dis!!! What ever ends your from put your ballys on link up and cause havic, just rob everything. Police can't stop it. Dead the fires though!! Rebroadcast!!!!!"

Northwind - Member

Zulu-Eleven - Member

He had an illegally held gun - therefore, he was a real, identifiable threat.

Doesn't carry the death sentence last time I looked. [b]A gun isn't a threat unless it's used[/b]. Maybe the shooting was justified, maybe not but "He had a gun therefore it was completely fine to shoot him" doesn't wash.

sorry, but balls.

if I was pointing a gun at your head, is that not a threat? or do I need to pull the trigger to make you feel threatened? by that point, you wouldn't feel threatened....you wouldn't be feeling much of anything to be fair

Heh

http://yfrog.com/h26oee8j

Clearly photoshopped. Boris rides a unicorn.

Right, back to more practical matters. I fancy a new telly, which London post code should I go to this evening to pick up a free one?

whilst Hora's mind-dump above is a little reactionary, he's saying what a lot of people are thinking

Yeah, but that's only because a lot of people are ignorant and reactionary keyboard warriors...

Those two patrol cars parked under the railway bridge need moving ASAP before they get set alight and disrupt train travel for weeks.

Whose the bright commander on the ground?

Why haven't they learnt from Tottenham and nipped the riots hard?

Right, back to more practical matters. I fancy a new telly, which London post code should I go to this evening to pick up a free one?

Thinking the same thing meself actually... looks like Hackney might be the place to be, or Dalston, or Lewisham, or Stratford... mischief all over tonight it seems 🙄

morgs - Member

sorry, but balls.

if I was pointing a gun at your head, is that not a threat? or do I need to pull the trigger to make you feel threatened? by that point, you wouldn't feel threatened....you wouldn't be feeling much of anything to be fair

Are you actively trying to misunderstand 😕 That would be using it, and as I said it's not a threat when it's not being used. But [i]possession[/i] doesn't justify shooting someone.

Why haven't they learnt from Tottenham and nipped the riots hard?

Still no evidence that he pointed a gun at anyone, just the assumption that he must be a bad guy because the police shot him, and the police only shoot bad guys.

Fourundred!!!!!!!!!!! 😀

Psychle, forget Stratford etc; cheap tat. Get yerself down to Canary Wharf mate... 😉