like a Reform voter thinking 'this might work’
What might work?
Reform means Reform.
To some, Brexit was not an event in isolation, it was a step. You say they're thick, they'd say 'it isn't working properly because we're not there yet'
I’d bet most of the voters aren’t thinking much more than the next year ahead, never mind some long game political strategy/ideology, such is populism.
It will be interesting to see how results in England (FPTP) compare with Wales and Scotland (PRish). Some discussion on BluSky that FPTP really fails the electorate in England with so many parties, as with the left vote split (Greens picking up previous Lab voters) the Reform candidate gets thro on a small percentage of the overall vote. It was ever thus of course, but just really messy now. I wonder if there will be evidence of some tactical voting trends to keep Reform from the successes they are hoping for. They seem already to have failed to win Bexley for example (w Tory being the beneficiaries!!)
If you look at the Rejoin opinion polls, 66 plays 33 ish - 33 is the Reform vote. If all the rejoiners weren't split across Greens, Lab and LibDem then Reform wouldn't get a look in. Local elections are very different of course, but it'll be interesting to see how the impact of these voting trends change how people think for the next GE. Reform being tw*ts in local councils won't do them any favors.
Reform being tw*ts in local councils won't do them any favors.
[ whisper it ] What if putting tw*ts in positions of power to stick two fingers up to the world is what many people want? [ /whisper ]
When I meet a Reform voter who isn't thick, racist or both, I'll stop calling them thick and racist
I've not met one yet and I've met plenty
I'd like you if I met you and we'd agree on far more than we disagree, so I'm wary of saying this bc it risks being patronising. Sometimes I read what I write and I'm not sure if it comes across ok. If it doesn't then apologies.
Fundamentally we agree here but there's may be a difference in where we stop challenging our own thinking. And maybe I go too far at times, and I realise the outcome of this line of thinking might be part of some of the far left and something I don't sign up to fully. Anyway... They may be lower IQ than you and they may have views that have racial bias or that can only be expressed in certain environments (a massive red flag). But while it may well be a case of 'if the cap fits..' the 'thick racist' bit is as much about your judgement of them as what they present, because the reasons for the views they express are the underlying issue in all this. What has made them think like this? Why are you and I tolerant of culture and race or open to new ideas? Probably it's related to education and a sense of agency in our life. We're all influence by the views of others, we're said to be an average of our 5 closest friends, we're shaped by our culture and thoughts. But .. 'we are not our thoughts'. That applies here in an important way - we need to be able to look past what people present to be able to find ways forward (I mean, in all but the most outright nasty cases, they need the work of a psychologist). And we need to find ways forward because .. well, look where we are, we might get Farage as a PM.
To get past racism or to reach political agreement we need empathy and flexibility in our thinking. That's hard to do in cases like this, we have to work at overcoming ourselves. Do we ever try to talk to people who give us an impression of low IQ and racist tendencies? Don't go with an ego thinking it's about being right. Listen, and ask where that comes from or why. I won't change anyone's long-held beliefs* but if I listen I will understand them better than someone who doesn't. (makes me think of how Louis Theroux does what he does - he's brilliant in this area).
*A person who might is the person who is the subject of their negative views who does something that makes them re-assess, or they meet in circumstances where thier views are challenged. This is why I believe in travel (a luxury of the wealthy) and multiculturalism - but for multiculturalism to work it needs to be able to develop in a fair society free of fear ('taking our jobs' 'lowering the area' 'criminal gangs' etc etc).
but for multiculturalism to work it needs to be able to develop in a fair society free of fear ('taking our jobs' 'lowering the area' 'criminal gangs' etc etc).
Perhaps if Labour hadn’t tried to use immigration to “rub the right’s nose in diversity” (anyone remember that quote?) then the country would be in a generally better place than it is now?
most of the people I speak to just want to be treated fairly, to know that everyone gets to play by the same rules. That people don’t get to cut to the front of the queue. Every day they are confronted by cases of that not being the case, and amazingly enough, it results in resentment and distrust of the system.
The story so far (locally to me) this morning.
And in total:
Sigh.
“rub the right’s nose in diversity” (anyone remember that quote?)
Yes. Heard it from Farage a lot. The reality was that we needed EU workers, and that's why they were welcome... and that standing up to the BNP was worth it for economic as well as social or political reasons:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/26/labour-immigration-plot-andrew-neather
Fast forward... and yes, the backlash looks likely to give us an effectively BNP government soon, albeit with people at the top of it far better at grifting for themselves and working with the media than Nick Griffen ever was.
That people don’t get to cut to the front of the queue.
Another way of putting it is that they want their place near the front of the queue preserved. Ignoring of course that the rich never have to join the queue at all... something Reform will double down on rather remove. But so many voters still lap up the idea that problem is immigrants and the disabled... with a side helping of other "others"... that they see any assistance for and acceptance and/or protection of as being against their own interests somehow.
Ah, the BNP, remember them? The people who once claimed that Muslim rape gangs were operating in British cities, and everyone dismissed… even tried to prosecute them for saying it. Remember how that worked out?
And we wonder why people end up voting for reform?
Something about stopped clocks...
The BNP, in whatever guise, are still a vile and hateful bunch.
What else did they do for the protection of women?
https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/35559/bnp-candidate-nick-eriksens-views-on-rape
`I've never understood why so many men have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the feminazi myth machine into believing that rape is such a serious crime ... Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal.' and `To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting that forcefeeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched'
That was Nick Eriksen, prominent BNP campaigner and candidate.
He also wrote:
`Some women are like gongs - they need to be struck regularly'
Let's not start romanticising the BNP... well, you can do if you happen to be a racist misogynist I suppose.
Well, at least they knew what a woman was…
wow, you do realise that still wouldnt make being pro-rape a good thing?
Aaah, yes.... we seem to have hit the Andrew Tate/Reform voter venn diagram
most of the people I speak to just want to be treated fairly, to know that everyone gets to play by the same rules. That people don’t get to cut to the front of the queue. Every day they are confronted by cases of that not being the case, and amazingly enough, it results in resentment and distrust of the system.
Pretty much what immigrants want too, but for the lottery of which country they were born in & who's ****ed them over in the past.
I don't seem many far right claiming it's not fair that the landed gentry of this country get to have so much wealth.
Do we ever try to talk to people who give us an impression of low IQ and racist tendencies?
You're a better man than I am. I can't see why I would want to waste my time doing that.
Every day they are confronted by cases of that not being the case, and amazingly enough, it results in resentment and distrust of the system.You can blame the media for that. The *actual* incidence of queue jumping and "unfairness" is miniscule, Despite what farage and the daily mail tell you.
Benefit fraud (for instance) the UK spends more on finding it than we actually recover on paper, last i looked it was about a 3 or 4:1 rate. And then those who have cheated, generally default or are unable to pay. On top of that, most people who are investigated aren't fiddling the system, they've just failed to understand it, and claimed the wrong benefits. (quite often they end up better off after a preliminary review/investigation and filling in the right forms.)
TBH, a good rule of thumb is that anything the DM or farage and his ilk get excited about is almost guaranteed to be absolute garbage, or amplified by at least an order of magnitude to provoke outrage from those who are missing critical reasoning skills.
but for multiculturalism to work it needs to be able to develop in a fair society free of fear ('taking our jobs' 'lowering the area' 'criminal gangs' etc etc).
Perhaps if Labour hadn’t tried to use immigration to “rub the right’s nose in diversity” (anyone remember that quote?) then the country would be in a generally better place than it is now?
most of the people I speak to just want to be treated fairly, to know that everyone gets to play by the same rules. That people don’t get to cut to the front of the queue. Every day they are confronted by cases of that not being the case, and amazingly enough, it results in resentment and distrust of the system.
The first part, I didn't remember that quote. Google AI suggests it's not that simple and it's been distorted for effect - https://share.google/aimode/IHQthwHhFCROrjmtQ
But I'd agree that the left haven't engaged well with the right overall. That's my general point on this thread really. Every movement has it's lunatic fringe and we get nowhere by taking sides and sticking to them, that's for football not politics or social policy.
The second point, I see how that happens. I'm not sure the queue is being fairly defined and some of that may be about the failings of both main parties - that they have failed many in the UK and it has created mistrust (and that's not about where they're from culturally, more like geographically or class). The problem is those believing that the blame lies with the immigrants or anyone else, it lies in politics. Like, do I blame those who can legally avoid tax or do I blame whoever created the laws that allow it?
+1 - I'd much rather have a well meaning incompetent in charge than whatever flavour of Reform representative.
To an extent.
I'd have Cameron for example than May (lacked any principle / vision), Borris (lacked everything), Truss (somehow lacked everything Boris lacked, and more), or Sunak (could have been a good PM at the right time, but always felt like he wanted to be there for the sake of being in politics, not because he actually had a belief and vision to improve the country).
I'd not want a Green PM any more than I wanted a Tory though.
When we ultimately end up with coalition politics as a more regular outcome I'd like to see them as a minor partner in a government of any color.
I'd not want a Green PM any more than I wanted a Tory though.
Waking up on an alternative timeline where Caroline Lucas was PM would be lovely.
Meanwhile, in this reality, Jonathan Gullis has a political position again:
https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/two-former-mps-elected-new-10955082
Former Stoke-on-Trent North MP Jonathan Gullis was one of the more notable victors in the Newcastle Borough Council elections. The outspoken politician, who defected from the Tories to Reform UK last year, was among the 27 Reform councillors elected across Newcastle as the party swept to power in the borough.
But he is not the only ex-MP now serving on the borough council, following Thursday's all-out elections. Jeremy Lefroy, who was the Conservative MP for Stafford from 2010 to 2019, was elected as the new Tory councillor for Maer and Whitmore.
You're a better man than I am. I can't see why I would want to waste my time doing that.
I really doubt it, I just wouldn't see it as a waste of time. I mean, I don't go looking for it but I'd keep talking to a cabbie who starts off about bloody cyclists, that was a common one years back. Same in politics. I'd say I've learned more by recognising I know FA about actual politics or economics etc, it's just my opinions or ideas so worth no more than anyone else's. Big difference between that and something you know about as facts from study or experience. And I guess a lot of what drives our opinions on politics are based on experiences - the issue is our thinking on the cause-effect, we all get that wrong often.
Meanwhile, in this reality, Jonathan Gullis has a political position again:
It really is beyond parody now. Reform-cheerleading sock-puppet Tim Montgomery was on the Today programme this morning* and was asked if Reform was a one-man-band with Farage.
He replied that, on the contrary, Reform had many highly skilled and accomplished political operators and listed 'Honest Bob' Jenrick, Cruella Braverman, Nadaheem Zahawi, Andrea Jenkyns, Naddine Dorres, Jake Berry and co. What a sorry roll call of washed up old failures, all of whom have been wholly responsible for the disaster of 14 years of Tory misrule
And that's the best Reform have got! On top of that, they're now welcoming the likes of Gullis.
They're just a retirement home for failed old Tory's, desperately trying to hitch their wagon to the latest gravy train. I'm amazed that the man-frog can keep a straight face when he tries to tell everyone that Reform represents change and is somehow 'anti-establishment'
They are the living embodiment of 'The Establishment'. Its difficult to argue that Reform voters aren't thick if they haven't fathomed that one out for themselves
* I have no idea why the BBC keep giving air time to these far-right no-marks
BBC keep giving air time to these far-right no-marks
particularly evident this morning on Today, the segment devoted to Reform was way longer than that to the Greens...
why is Farage given so much airtime, hearing him droning on drives me as mad as hearing the sound of Trump's voice :-/
You're a better man than I am. I can't see why I would want to waste my time doing that.
I think most of the time it's simply ignorance / media driven. If you sit down and chat with people who think like that then a) it forces them to realize that outside their bubble not everyone does agree with them. b) it forces you to actually challenge your own beliefs and reasonings. It's great to say we should be compassionate and welcome refugees, that's easy on STW. it's harder to make a more nuanced case about how do we go about paying for that, where do we draw the line with economic migration, why is it our economy can't seem to survive without recent migrants on low wages, how do you make it equitable when that growing area of the labor force suppresses wages. There's no point sitting at home and winning an argument with yourself.
I've elderly relatives who say some pretty awful things, and have fully swallowed the "London has fallen" rhetoric. They live in a big house up on the Yorkshire / Lancashire border with an acre of garden and I doubt there has ever been an immigrant in their village, I've never even seen someone ethnically not-white there!
"What's it like in Reading with all those [insert hurty words here] people"
"well the curry is amazing [and as of last night we have 100% fewer Reform MP's!]"
As depressing as it is to see Reform getting so many votes. It's also depressing to read here the usual suspects quickly falling back on their thick, racist slurs instead of attempting to understand why people vote the way they do .. it wasn't beneficial to name call after Brexit and it isn't beneficial now.
Understanding and trying to better inform these Reform voters is crucial to avoid Farage destroying the UK as Trump is doing to the USA.
*Name calling is for children when they feel they've lost an argument.
Understanding and trying to better inform these Reform voters is crucial
What are you doing to achieve that goal? If you have a successful approach, please share...
to avoid Farage destroying the UK as Trump is doing to the USA.
Just like Trump, we can't pretend that Farage's appeal to voters isn't what it is. Pointing it out isn't a "slur", it's an opinion/comment about the society we live in, and an observation about a significant minority of the people around us. The idea that "we" have any power to "inform" voters turning out for Reform (rather than their information coming from the media they choose, and the social media pushed their way) might deliver a warm hopeful feeling, but it doesn't reflect the depressing reality we can see currently unfolding in front of us.
As depressing as it is to see Reform getting so many votes. It's also depressing to read here the usual suspects quickly falling back on their thick, racist slurs instead of attempting to understand why people vote the way they do
If you can provide me with a single solitary example of any interaction with a Reform voter that didn't fall back on them being...
a) thick
b) racist
...then I'm all ears. Because since Brexit we've had 10 years of this shit and I'm sorry, but every defense I've heard to justify this continued stupidity falls back on some combination of the above.
Right now we have Farage promising the moon on a stick. The same moon on a stick that was being promised if we left the EU, but has singularly failed to materialise. The truth is that if you're going to fall for that load of old bollocks again, then you're as thick as mince. Fool me once....
Understanding and trying to better inform these Reform voters is crucial to avoid Farage destroying the UK as Trump is doing to the USA.
True enough, but I'd argue that the Labour Party is better placed to do that than us lot chatting to our cabbies. Maybe they should take that job seriously and spend less time on demonising retired GPs and whatnot.
Understanding and trying to better inform these Reform voters is crucial to avoid Farage destroying the UK as Trump is doing to the USA.
That ship sailed long ago. If they can't yet see the folly in brexit, and the plethora of lies told by reform in the intervening period then engaging with them isn't going to achieve anything
Let's take the loons that still support trump as clear evidence that rational discussion supported by facts will not change the opinion of a large portion of society
And after all that, when the lies have been clearly pointed out, when their arguments have been easily debunked, all you are left with is the conclusion they are either ignorant, thick, horrificly selfish or just plain old racist
The idea that "we" have any power to "inform" voters turning out for Reform (rather than their information coming from the media they choose, and the social media pushed their way) might deliver a warm hopeful feeling, but it doesn't reflect the depressing reality we can see currently unfolding in front of us.
Like turning up to a gun fight with an olive branch.
This will take a generation or 2 to clear. Starting with education from the very beginning. I don’t hold out much hope, and much harder times are coming.
Right now we have Farage promising the moon on a stick. The same moon on a stick that was being promised if we left the EU, but has singularly failed to materialise. The truth is that if you're going to fall for that load of old bollocks again, then you're as thick as mince. Fool me once....
Moon on a stick you say? Fool me once you say?
I don't think relying on political parties to educate reform voters will work.
I think it has to be a grassroots effort to change things at a local level, so talking to your cabbies (and whoever else) to help change minds slowly but surely - that's how we change it.
And lobbying for proportional representation so the 30% don't tell the rest of us how to live our lives
Understanding and trying to better inform these Reform voters is crucial to avoid Farage destroying the UK as Trump is doing to the USA.
I can only comment on those I know.
They don't want anymore non white British people arriving into the UK, and many of those already here they want gone.
That people don’t get to cut to the front of the queue.
That's a fkn stupid way to run things. Do you stand in A&E complaining that heart attack victims are being seen before you even though you were first in the queue?
This will take a generation or 2 to clear. Starting with education from the very beginning. I don’t hold out much hope, and much harder times are coming
And, with school budgets being squeezed, it's less likely that kids will get enough of the training they need to critically appraise politics in that time, so the cycle continues.
I think it has to be a grassroots effort to change things at a local level, so talking to your cabbies (and whoever else) to help change minds slowly but surely - that's how we change it.
Well if it's STWers talking to cabbies vs Elon Musk and the BBC, we're pretty much screwed.
And lobbying for proportional representation so the 30% don't tell the rest of us how to live our lives
About the only certainty is that I would bet 50p of anyone's money that none of the 5 major parties are going to decide to change the voting system any time soon.
The only way Labour will beat Reform is by doing better over the next 3 years.
They've stumbled into Government made some major balls-ups and need to get back on track.
A good start would be to reverse the fiscal drag from income tax thresholds. But at the next budget, not the one before the election as that would be spun as bribery.
Not a fan of changing leader - I don't see what this would achieve.
I can only comment on those I know.
They don't want anymore non white British people arriving into the UK, and many of those already here they want gone.
Well, there’s a couple of interesting things to explore there aren’t there. You say they don’t want “non white British people” - so it’s a colour thing is it? They’re perfectly happy with Eastern European immigrants (predominantly white) are they?
and when you say “many of those already here they want gone”, are there any criteria on that? I mean, is it just random, or is it a bit more selective than that - like them perhaps being most keen on getting rid of those convicted of criminal offences, or perhaps those who have entered the UK and don’t work?
See, there’s a bit of nuance there, isn’t there?
Well, Labour do seem to prefer nonces to nuances, don’t they?
