See, there’s a bit of nuance there, isn’t there?
There's also the nuance of my typo which made for an unclear sentence.
To be honest, if there's real nuance I dont see it with them. It's all about immigration and diversity, you have to press them to talk about anything else.
But.... I'm both at work and not in a constructive frame of mind which will not result in a constructive conversation so I shall get back to work I guess.
Zia Yusuf is presently being interviewed by Matt Chorley on 5 Live. He's gone full Trump and is talking of Reforms plans for ICE style mass deportations and putting detention centers in constituencies that vote for the Green party
He's coming across as exactly what he is.. a nasty, spiteful and divisive, toxic little man. Anyone who can listen to this and think 'yep, they're the party for me' seriously needs to give their head a wobble.
He's now casually batting off there being anything wrong with Nige taking 5 million quid from a dodgy overseas-based crypto bloke. He's also very, very reluctant to answer the question if there are any more multi-million pound gifts that his boss has received that we don't yet know about?
It's not just the recently uncovered 5 million personal donation to the chief grifter (who has gone on to promote his donor's company, and proposes to change UK law to further his business goals), there's also the small matter of where his Party has received its huge campaign fund war chest from... (the following links are from before we knew about the "EXTRA" five million quid Farage is refusing to answer questions about this week)...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg11e428e4o
And then there's the fact that Farage has used some of the money given to him (to promote crypto).... to buy crypto... so he stands to benefit directly...
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_1yhEYWFyPA
Not really. It's obvious that you, along with many other Reform / Restore voters are essentially racist but are now able to ponce around in public.
So, which race do you think I’m prejudiced against?
They don't want anymore non white British people arriving into the UK, and many of those already here they want gone.
You forgot to mention they want migrant boats torpedoed and any that do make it to shore should be strafed by a squadron of Spitfires. Just to be clear, I'm not being sarcastic.
So, which race do you think I’m prejudiced against?
Probably most of them, but particularly the 'brown' ones would be my guess..
And if I'm completely wrong..i challenge you to give me 3 reasons I should vote for Reform? As someone who doent have much love for any political party I'm genuinely interested in what you can come up with tbh.
I’m gonna go with ‘none, so long as they see the world exactly as I do’?
would be interesting to see to hear any non immigration related policy you’re in favour of though. Reduced workers rights? Privatised NHS? Scrap ECHR?
Surely, it has to be...
https://www.reformparty.uk/view-pdf/making-britain-a-crypto-hub
As Prime Minister, Nigel Farage will enact the Cryptoassets and Digital Finance Bill.
Other than immigration, it's the only policy that gets a full policy proposal of its own on their website... I can't think why...
I do think a reform central govt would be successful though, by their own metric. For example, the FTSE would probably be up, which would be a success, right? Most of the country wouldnt be able to afford shoes - meh, that’s their fault but if business is booming and profits are up, that’s good, right?
Well, there’s a couple of interesting things to explore there aren’t there. You say they don’t want “non white British people” - so it’s a colour thing is it? They’re perfectly happy with Eastern European immigrants (predominantly white) are they?
Unfortunately yes, a friend is mixed race and (generally) experiences far more racism in Summer once he's tanned and looks less "white". He was born here.
Another friend is actually an immigrant, but from the USA (and doesn't have an accent to give it away), he found it both amusing and insulting when people would express anti-migration views, but would find ways to exclude him and later his wife from their definitions somehow. This was leading into May's "hostile environment" era so the entire system of getting IDR and then trying to bring his wife to join him was seemingly set-up to make you fail.
I do think a reform central govt would be successful though, by their own metric. For example, the FTSE would probably be up, which would be a success, right? Most of the country wouldnt be able to afford shoes - meh, that’s their fault but if business is booming and profits are up, that’s good, right?
Remember, the Dow is over 50,000!
If you tank your currency then your stock market goes up.
Fantastic result in Great Yarmouth, the days are numbered for Farage and his reskinned Tory party.
If you can provide me with a single solitary example of any interaction with a Reform voter that didn't fall back on them being...
a) thick
b) racist
And there is the problem.
As long as some here are convinced that someone voting for Reform makes them thick and/or racist, then that arrogance or ignorance is only perpetuating the problem because people will simply not engage in discussion with them.
Insults and childish name calling stifles debate.
Insults and childish name calling stifles debate.
For many of us, these observations have come out of debate with people who want Farage as PM. If you listen to what his voters tell you in private conversations... it so often comes back to the same things. "Understanding" people sometimes means accepting they mean what they say, and they are who they are, rather than pretending otherwise.
Fantastic result in Great Yarmouth, the days are numbered for Farage and his reskinned Tory party.
Spliters!
[ Great Yarmouth First is Rubert Lowe's new wheeze.... the MP who was squeezed out of Reform ]
And if I'm completely wrong..i challenge you to give me 3 reasons I should vote for Reform? As someone who doent have much love for any political party I'm genuinely interested in what you can come up with tbh.
i) Existing ‘consensus’ political parties have all failed, entirely, to come up with a plan for effective return of removal of failed asylum seekers (let’s reiterate that word gain, failed) and other economic migrants who have illegally entered the country - of whatever ethnic, religious or racial background, including white - or for migrants or dual citizenship residents who have committed serious criminal offences. Only a new and radical approach to this, including, if necessary, forcible repatriation to third party host nations, can offer a solution to this long-term failure.
ii) Allied with i) above, the current policy of housing such migrants in the community (hostels, hotels and other properties) rather than in secure accommodation *until such time as the veracity of their claims has been processed* has resulted in a booming of criminality and the ‘black’ (common use, nothing to do with race) economy - including criminality, modern slavery and people trafficking, all of which are detrimental to society, and massively undermine the lawful of economy and wages, which has been detrimental to workers, particularly low-wage and service economy workers and the working classes, who have, as direct result, witnessed wage stagnation and a loss in job conditions and security, while multinational corporations, many of whom operate in the gig-economy (such as uber, just eat, etc) are profiting off the back of a failed system. Again, only radical change, that the established parties have failed to offer, can solve this.
iii) government, and local government, spending has, frequently, been profligate and misguided - for example in outsourcing management contracts to corporations that have failed to deliver value for money, and more widely through a shift in spending to reactive, rather than proactive, spending (periodic repair rather than planned maintenance - see potholes, drainage etc. for examples) which, all too often, results in higher long-term costs. Again, existing parties have repeatedly failed to deliver value for money on this, and again, only radical change in approach can begin to change this. Fewer middle managers and non-productive staff (diversity officers etc.) and a greater focus on delivery of front-line services.
and shall we go for iv?
iv) an extensive retreat of police from front line crime prevention and detection into social engineering (policing free speech) and focus on irrelevant issues (hurt feelings) which has undermined trust in the police and led to widespread manipulaton of the legal system to settle personal grudges (Linehan prosecution for example). All of which existing major parties have failed to tackle and, once again, deserves a radical and robust approach to crime, focusing on broken windows and punishing crimes against people and property.
happy now?
Zia Yusuf is presently being interviewed by Matt Chorley on 5 Live. He's gone full Trump and is talking of Reforms plans for ICE style mass deportations and putting detention centers in constituencies that vote for the Green party
It will be interesting to see how they deliver these national government responsibilities with their new found council powers.
im quite looking forward to seeing how badly reform so now we have 2 years before the next election and they will have a record to defend from these authorities
Door to door canvassing has got to be a relic of the past. To actually get someone to answer the door (and not see your rosette and slam it in your face*) and have them be a realistic swing voter, then to actually convince them to change their vote to your party? Whats the statistical hit rate on that? And if it only really works for about a week before the election, even putting in 12 hour shifts you are getting a small handful of votes surely.
At the last election, there was a LibDem canvasser came to my door, in fact they came round several times, the conversation tended to centre on the appalling state of the road I live on, considered to be the worst in the whole of Chippenham. They told me they were hoping that the money was going to be available to resurface it. There wasn’t a single canvasser from any of the other parties on the ballot.
About a year later, a whole bunch of heavy machinery pitched up, and rather than the usual practice of spraying some thin tar and a load of chippings, they ground the surface right down to the base and re-built it right up, and included expansion joints as well!
They ended up using twice the material expected, because the road had eroded down to the concrete base in many places, they basically rebuilt the entire road from scratch.
On that basis, I’ll be continuing to vote for the LibDems, they actually do what they say they’ll do, unlike the Conservatives, who’ve been in power for as long as I can remember, and who’ve done the sum total of sweet FA, the state of my road, where I’ve lived for 54 years, is the best indication of their total indifference, because it hasn’t been touched since before then!
And breathe…
happy now?
You want immigrants/asylum seekers sent home or locked up, think reform will somehow start managing budgets better than they have in their existing councils, and for the police to stop investigating hate crimes against (not only) immigrants.
But you aren’t racist or stupid. I see.
You want immigrants/asylum seekers sent home or locked up,
you missed out the key words. ‘failed’ and ‘until their claims are assessed’
why on earth would anyone *not* want failed asylum seekers removed?
think reform will somehow start managing budgets better than they have in their existing councils,
Do you think Labour or Conservative councils will somehow start managing budgets better than they have in their existing councils?
for the police to stop investigating hate crimes against (not only) immigrants.
Where did anyone say that? What crimes were mentioned?
Well, I can understand the difference between race and country of origin, which puts me a few miles ahead of you on both of those…
London Economic has a report suggesting that the results actually show Reform are passed their peak. I am not so confident. It does seem Starmer has become a bigger liability than the Labour government itself. Maybe a more "populist" replacement, if there is one, might help.
Seem to be a lot of very vocal Reform people locally saying that this is a kick in the teeth for the pro-Palestinian terrorist supporting woke Lefties, which seems odd as this woke Leftie thinks the government is a genicide apologist.
Great to see Reform not making inroads in the Scottish parliament, absolutely gobsmacked to see how well they've done in Wales. Labour may have ****ed up, but supporting a party made up of the worst failed Tories in Wales seems mental to me.
Great to see Reform not making inroads in the Scottish parliament,
Wait until the List seats are calculated
happy now?
Well I'm happy that I don't regret making the assumption about you that I did, if that's what you mean!
Basically, points 1 and 2 are the usual slightly racist drivel I'd expect from a reform voter, point 4 sounds very much like 'who gives a shit if minorities are abused, it doesn't impact me'.
Point 3 you may have a point other than the fact that reform is made up of the exact same people from the 'existing parties' that you claim have failed us so badly. Where in their manifesto does it tell me how they will actually address this issue?
So as a swing voter, I've got to say you have absolutely failed to convince me of any reason to vote for them.
On that basis, I’ll be continuing to vote for the LibDems, they actually do what they say they’ll do, unlike the Conservatives, who’ve been in power for as long as I can remember, and who’ve done the sum total of sweet FA, the state of my road, where I’ve lived for 54 years, is the best indication of their total indifference, because it hasn’t been touched since before then!
That's absolutely fair to vote for someone who keeps their promise.
For me it's rather simple, if the candidates do not put their photos up on website etc and I can't find them anyway online then I will not vote for them regardless, coz I don't want to vote for "shadow" (blank shadow image). I have voted for incumbents because things are still "alright" locally.
Basically, points 1 and 2 are the usual slightly racist drivel I'd expect from a reform voter
Oh, look, another one who cannot differentiate between race and country of origin. Is it any wonder why I think swing voters all lack critical thinking skills?
excuse the formatting
Where did anyone say that? What crimes were mentioned?
I presume you are referring to what the hard of thinking refer to as ‘hurty words on Facebook’ that Lucy Connolly found herself in hot water over, which were, in fact, race hate crimes. Am I wrong?
Do you think Labour or Conservative councils will somehow start managing budgets better than they have in their existing councils?
I think reform will make cuts to essential services without a second thought to line the pockets of their private sector mates, on a scale not yet seen. They made big claims to get in in other places before now, and are doing the opposite. Eg council tax cut promise, only to raise them
you missed out the key words. ‘failed’ and ‘until their claims are assessed’
why on earth would anyone *not* want failed asylum seekers removed?
I’m not keen on locking innocent people up whilst applications are processed. I don’t think the act of someone being here should be illegal. If people break laws whilst here, that’s different, but simply being here shouldn’t be illegal.
Connolly was accused of a serious criminal offence of incitement to violence (reasonable people can disagree whether she would have been found guilty at trial)
There have, however, been tens of thousands of police hours wasted on NCHI. Along with entirely inappropriate wastes of police resources like arrests for calling a police horse gay, and prosecution for a dog doing a nazi salute. If anyone thinks that isn’t a waste of police time then they’re mental (there, I called someone mental, that’s probably a NCHI in itself)
Great to see Reform not making inroads in the Scottish parliament,
Wait until the List seats are calculated
I think the racist ****/s have got 10, including 5 down here in galloway where the demographics/poulation is heavily skewed towards old n' grey retirees which also helps the tory ****er vote
Farage is a banker whose main reason for existence is to concentrate wealth into the pockets of the already rich. He delivered Brexit which has done precisely that, making most people poorer but benefiting the few. A reform government wouldn't reduce immigration, it would welcome more people to exploit.
I’m not keen on locking innocent people up whilst applications are processed. I don’t think the act of someone being here should be illegal. If people break laws whilst here, that’s different, but simply being here shouldn’t be illegal.
But it is illegal, just as it would be if you or I tried to enter another country through non standard routes and no visa or right of entry. Are you suggesting that anyone should be entitled to enter any country they choose without that country having any choice in the matter?
They have entered the country illegally. They will be fed, have accommodation provided and be safe until their applications are assessed. Those genuine applicants can then be helped to be integrated into the country. Those not should be returned as they have been found to have no legal right to be here.
Only because there is no legal way for them to enter before claiming asylum.
Seeking asylum is not illegal.
I think reform will make cuts to essential services without a second thought
My council is reform controlled (Durham). Nothing has changed much since they gained control - because there’s not much budget left to cut (and there’s another thread where many with reform councils say the same thing).
I’d never vote for reform, but I’m not overly concerned about the current election results because local elections are often susceptible to protest votes and they will likely poll less well in a general election that is first past the post.
Oh, look, another one who cannot differentiate between race and country of origin. Is it any wonder why I think swing voters all lack critical thinking skills?
Oh I fully understand the difference. Now let's look at this paragraph..
and massively undermine the lawful of economy and wages, which has been detrimental to workers, particularly low-wage and service economy workers and the working classes, who have, as direct result, witnessed wage stagnation and a loss in job conditions and security, while multinational corporations, many of whom operate in the gig-economy
Remind me which party is led by a man that championed brexit, which nearly all economists agree has had a substantial impact on the household finances of the working classes and the uk economy?
Remind me which party has pledged to overturn the employments rights bills if elected, a bill specifically designed to protect such aspects as job security?
Remind me which party is led by a grifter, an ex investment banker, whose mission in life is to make him and his rich pals in large corporations richer?
But oddly, you mention none of this because 'migrants bad'...
If you really gave a shit about low wages, the working classes and job security you wouldn't be voting for Reform.
Only because there is no legal way for them to enter before claiming asylum.
That’s because there is no legal right to claim asylum in the uk if you have travelled through the EU
https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum/eligibility
Secondly to claim asylum you have to do at the point of entry to immigration officials. Not by entering by non standard routes and then waiting until you might be caught.
https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum/eligibility
You still haven’t answered why you think it’s fine for anyone to enter any country they like with no restrictions
As an aside how many of todays elected councillors will still be there in 3 years representing the party they stood for today?
As long as some here are convinced that someone voting for Reform makes them thick and/or racist, then that arrogance or ignorance is only perpetuating the problem because people will simply not engage in discussion with them.
Two things here.
1) They have no interest in engaging in discussion as how nice you might be, they just want to win. We've seen this time after time on STW alone. The Reformerlyremain supporters' playbook is to spout bollocks and then when challenged they either get all shouty, immediately change the subject, or vanish. It's futile to even try.
2) I've said this before but I think it's unfair to label all Reform voters as thick or racist. Rather, it's surely true that all the thick racists voted for Reform.
Secondly to claim asylum you have to do at the point of entry to immigration officials.
How do you get to that point of entry via legitimate means, Chris?
Well, I can understand the difference between race and country of origin, which puts me a few miles ahead of you on both of those…
You were on about deporting "illegals" to a random third party country, so this isn't quite the flex you seem to believe it is.
prosecution for a dog doing a nazi salute.
He posted a video on Facebook shouting "gas the Jews." The dog, as far as I'm aware, was not charged.
He tried to take the case as far as the ECHR. Ironically.
you missed out the key words. ‘failed’ and ‘until their claims are assessed’
They are two rather different statements. Lets stick with the latter.
If you want them locked up whilst claims are being assessed then looking at the current backlogs, although labour have been reducing them, thats locking people up for months regardless of whether its a valid claim or not.
Again, only radical change, that the established parties have failed to offer, can solve this.
I do love this rhetorical approach.
I am not quite sure though how exactly a hard right party consisting mostly of former tories (although some of them have gone through other parties eg Anderson or Paul Marshall who helped trash the libdems with his funding of the orange book lot then moved on to the tories and has now moved on to reform) should be considered anything other than one of the established parties?
They are the political equivalent of a phoenix business where once the warranties come due and HMRC start asking "so tax?" its a new company and name time.
I have been playing a "game" with a few friends today where we have looked at some of these radical new local government representatives and googling their history. Its remarkable how often it turns out they were a tory before (a particular favourite was someone who bounced beyond the various previous Farage incarnations and the tories depending on which seemed best at the time).
Reform arent offering radical change. They are offering the same failed worst of the private sector asset strippers approach. Its just they want to try and confuse the share holders for a bit longer whilst they finish looting the company by blaming some random group.
In Farages last incarnation it was the EU and now its now non EU foreigners which given one of the claims from the brexit campaign, save our curry houses amongst others, was that leaving the EU would result in more non EU migration is a bit special.
Unlikely, Reform UK will have been rebranded twice by then.
Nah Farage keeps a brand going until it becomes obvious he has failed to deliver on his promises or the cash runs out.
Whilst there is a chance given how badly they will screw the local councils up the former will be met they are helped by how few they have actually got a majority in.
All of the rest they can do like UKIP or whatever it was then did in the EU parliament. Fail to contribute/represent people and then announce that their constituents are being ignore is everyone elses fault.
Is it just me, or are there some unusual posters on this thread all of a sudden.....and are some of us (Cougar, dissonance) feeding the obvious trolls? 108 posts and winding the forum up - IGNORE
People talking up Great Yarmouth results eg - don't think GY has ever had any cheer leaders on here, - IGNORE
Is it just me, or are there some unusual posters on this thread all of a sudden.....and are some of us (Cougar, dissonance) feeding the obvious trolls? 108 posts and winding the forum up - IGNORE
I glanced at kevog's profile as I smelled the whiff of a returning banned. It's a 5-year old account so either my hunch was incorrect or they're playing a long game.
Meanwhile,
You still haven’t answered why you think it’s fine for anyone to enter any country they like with no restrictions
I guess because I grew up in a world, or at least a Europe, where I could do exactly that. All the way up until some posh, rich, or frog faced ****s took that right away from me, simply to not lose face, and make a quick buck, by convincing stupid racists it was in their best interests.
