Forum menu
* if you want to ensure a lifelong suspicion of or active hostility to organised religion, then giving someone a catholic education is a good place to start
Amen to that!
Where did you stand on Boris Johnson’s decoration and furniture bill?
The rules he broke were designed to lend clarity to who pays for them, not that he couldn't have some-one pay for them. As for his wife's taste, it's not mine, beyond that; mleh. This is in the same category of politicians getting tickets to watch popstars, I wish they didn't do these things, that they do; comes as no surprise.
Humans; being messy, inconstant and contradictory since forever.
Edukator was falsely claiming that morality comes from christianity
The 21stC moral relativity that you espouse; Freedom, equality, rights, punishment etc all have their origin in Christian philosophy. The idea of supernatural 'ancestors' or 3rd party 'Gods' watching over you to prevent bad behaviour is probably as old as human society. Religion probably partly explains why humans society has thrived and existed as long as it has.
The French catholic church is against euthanasia but in favour of palliatif care, the idea that the catholic church wants people to suffer is false, TJ. No different to the presbytarian church of Scotland:
https://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/about-us/our-views/end-of-life
I'm in favour of euthanasie as are catholics I know I've talked about it with, another way in which the church is out of step with the views of the faithful. 83% of French are in favour and 3-4% prepared to protest against.
With its traditions and culture anchored in the middle ages the church is losing its credibility and following, the multiple paedophile sagas further reducing credibility. What could be a force for good is increasingly seen as a force of evil (as this thread so clearly demonstates). A properly progressive Pope could change that - but don't hold you breath. Again I see a disconnect between individual faith and values, and the organisation.
it was needed to point out that morality predates Christianity because Edukator was falsely claiming that morality comes from christianity
TJ, misquoting, misrepresenting and putting words in people's mouths since he joined STW. Cue a long series of did didn' did didn't did didn't.
I have at no point stated:
Edukator was falsely claiming that morality comes from christianity
You're playing dirty, TJ. Please QUOTE ME and comment on what I said not what you invent.
Freedom, equality, rights, punishment etc all have their origin in Christian philosophy.
Nope, they have their roots in the Enlightenment.
The Enlightenment was most definitely NOT a result of people deciding they wanted the Church to take a more active part in their day to day lives.
Most 'Christian' values are actually the values that emerged once people decided they had had enough of Christianity running absolutely everything.
Edukator was falsely claiming that morality comes from christianity
Religion probably partly explains why humans society has thrived and existed as long as it has.
I mean it really doesn't at all. That's a remarkably Eurocentric perspective. There are many cultures around the world that not only prospered without formalised religion, but actually suffered terribly when it was introduced to them.
another way in which the church is out of step with the views of the faithful
The Catholic Church still won’t endorse the use of contraception, and maintains that sex is purely for procreation, but you’ll be unsurprised to hear that most catholic families don’t have ten kids.
So nobody is paying the remotest attention to their ‘teachings’ on this type of nonsense. Apart from in parts of the world where having 10 kids is still a thing as a life of grinding poverty means that a fair percentage of them will die during childhood.
Yet still they bury their heads in the sand and carry on in their belief that it’s still the year 1745, as they do with a multitude of other issues
the moral code, the history, the law... they all have their roots in Christianity.
direct quote Edukator. completely false on all 3 counts
Edukator was falsely claiming that morality comes from christianity
The 21stC moral relativity that you espouse; Freedom, equality, rights, punishment etc all have their origin in Christian philosophy. The idea of supernatural 'ancestors' or 3rd party 'Gods' watching over you to prevent bad behaviour is probably as old as human society. Religion probably partly explains why humans society has thrived and existed as long as it has.
completely false. Christianity adopted existing codes that have existed and developed since we came out of the trees on the plains of Africa
morality came first. Christianity much later
I think you'll find that the enlightenment was led by people who regarded themselves as religious (christian) but were against the barbaric, superstitious, hypocritical, intolerant church. Their fight wasn't against faith it was against the institution of the church. Voltaire for example:
L'athéisme et le fanatisme sont deux monstres qui peuvent dévorer et déchirer la société. L'athée dans son erreur conserve sa raison, qui lui coupe les griffes alors que le fanatisme est atteint d'une folie continuelle.
was as virulent against aethists as he was against the church(es). But he thought belief in God essential
Check out some of those, the ones I know th eviews of made the distinction between personal faith and organised religion I made earlier in the thread
My actual quote in full, TJ.
I'm stating the blindingly obvious, you've been brought up in a continent dominated by christianity for centuries, the education you recieved embodies christian values, the moral code, the history, the law... they all have their roots in Christianity.
Nowhere do I state there was no morality before christianity, that is you putting words in my mouth.
you say they all have their roots in Christianity which is false they do not.
If you take a step back and appraise the Catholic church as a business, it sure is one heck of a business model.
Oh it’s a brilliant business model. No one finds out it’s fake until they are dead. I’m still trying to workout how they got out of paying for the rebuild of Norte dame given its a Catholic Church.
All religions seem to be very good at asking their faithful for donations but you never hear of them spending any of that money on helping their faithful out of poverty or in t8mes of natural disasters. They even expect the faithful to make more donations to maintain their buildings
It would be nice it it were false, TJ, unfortunately I'm right.
The law: the head of state is the king who is also the head of the protestant church. Unlike France there is no separation of church and state at the highest level. There are places reserved for bishops in the House of Lords.
https://www.theverdictonline.org/post/religious-influence-on-the-justice-system
Education: I went to a state junior school called St james School which I detested and developed a lifelong suspiciion of organised religion. Religion (mainly Christianity but not exclusively) permeated every school I went to or worked in and they were all state schools.
As for the moral code, I suggest reading the Daily Mail and comparing the attitudes expressed with Leviticus, Abraham etc.. 🙂
that's not fair. some religions are very good at charitable works.
Sikhism. St Vincent de Paul. Salvation Army etc
However every time I see a medieval cathedral I do think how much better off the people would have been if all that wealth had been spent on them
Educator. that's now. You claimed the roots.
the roots of morality come from evolutionary presdures when we were plains apes
the law has its roots much longer ago as well
it's a completely false premise
was as virulent against aethists as he was against the church(es). But he thought belief in God essential
Christianity, without the church, is just basic morals. Or rather, the bits that people like to attribute to Chritianity are just basic morals. Morals that existed in one form or another long before Christianity.
If you're saying basic morals are good then that's hard to argue against.
Saying that Enlightenment figures were Christians and therefore the Enlightenment is Christian is like saying Existentialism is Christian because Søren Kierkegaard was a firm believer in God.
The Enlightenment was the beginnings of a movement away from Christianity.
Nope, they have their roots in the Enlightenment.
Of course morals existed before Christianity, but this modern world's moral framework is almost entirely based of medieval philosophy - both Christian and Muslim, that was read by the enlightenment and the 20th philosophers. The enlightenment was built upon the backs of medieval Christian philosophy. Logic from Abelard, William of Ockham. Metaphysics from Aquinas, philosophy of mind from Augustine, hell, even the Latin translation of Aristotle was a Roman Christian called Boethius in the 7th C. Without their works, the enlightenment wouldn't have happened. The 21st C Westernised ethical framework of Freedom of thought, just punishment, individualism, secularism, are all based on the works of medieval Christian scholars. To say otherwise is just ignorance. After all; it exists - as an historical record. You can read it.
weren't the Romans the dominant power in Europe, western Asia and north africa in AD 0, not sure they were too moralistic.
No one finds out it’s fake until they are dead.
You don't know that the afterlife doesn't exist, y'know... I mean, I'm as atheist as the next man, and while I'm willing to bet there's nothing, I am certain that I could be wrong, because I just don't know and neither does anyone else. Some folk just like to hedge their bet is all.
At least in Scotland, the beginning of the Enlightenment is often said to be marked by the execution of Thomas Aikenhead. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Enlightenment is so strongly associated with no longer murdering people for not believing the correct thing.
People who want to push the idea of Christian values always seem desperate to separate Christianity from any kind of organised religion. I hate to tell you, but Christianity is an organised religion and it always will be.
If it wasn't an organised religion it would just be people trying to be nice.
That's not ignorance. That's just a fact. A fact that I am allowed to state because people pushed back against Christian values and won us our freedom to say such things.
nick
those medieval scholars took existing concepts .
it all existed before them. like loads of other theists stuff. they simply used what went before and claimed it as theirs.
it's a completely false premise like the Easter bunny, Holly and ivy etc.
these all existed long before christianity
weren't the Romans the dominant power in Europe, western Asia and north africa in AD 0, not sure they were too moralistic.
In what ways? The slavery? The wars of conquest?
I'm not sure if Christian societies have the best of records when it comes to slavery and wars of conquest, do you?
The enlightenment was a fight against religious dogma and the control of the churches. And yeah, I read those existentialist novels years back but you're comparing apples with pears. It is significant that it was christians fighting the catholic church but the faith or not of existentialists isn't contradictory. There was no fundamental fight between between science and faith, the battle was between science and the church institution.
One of my geology cohort was the reverand Dr Jeremy Law. We shared a house together for a couple of years. His attitude was that through geology he was getting to know the work of God better. I didn't feel the need of a God to explain what I observed so I'm agnostic unable to prove either way. Amusingly you'll note we still share a couple of other interests:
https://www.canterbury.ac.uk/people/jeremy-law
Contrary to what TJ posts I haven't stated there was no morality before christianity. I'm fully aware of the moral codes of Amerindians and other groups not influenced by christianity. I studied Lewis and Clark's journey a few years back, the natives moral code included women sharing their husbands with older women, but not eating dogs so they took the piss out of the explorers.
I've specifically replied to a member about his upbringing in (presumably British) society dominated by christianity for centuries and in which christianity still has significant influence to the point of having religious representives with guaranteed places in it's highest institutions.
Some folk just like to hedge their bet is all.
"This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it's all true you'll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn't then you've lost nothing, right?" When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, "We're going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts...”
Terry Pratchett
But again, you're still trying to argue that there is organised religion and then, in a completely separate room, there is religion, specifically Christianity.
You CANNOT have Christianity without the church.
If you tried to have Christianity without the church you would simply have people putting into practice ideas that enable societies to enjoy a greater level of peace and stability. Noble ideas, but absolutely nothing to do with Christianity which more often that not embodies the opposite of what it is supposed to be preaching.
Some folk just like to hedge their bet is all.
"This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it's all true you'll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn't then you've lost nothing, right?" When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, "We're going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts...”
Terry Pratchett
This is Pascal's wager...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
Without their works, the enlightenment wouldn't have happened. The 21st C Westernised ethical framework of Freedom of thought, just punishment, individualism, secularism, are all based on the works of medieval Christian scholars.
We can equally say those scholars wouldnt have existed without ancient Greek philosophy. There is a reason the Islamic scholars (plus Christian and Jewish scholars located in Islamic lands) had a head start on the Western Christian scholars.
So why give Christian Morality the credit? That the main growth was achieved once the power of the church was reduced suggests Christianity shouldnt really get the credit for modern ethics. Whilst good people, such as Wilberforce, were able to take strong ethical messages from Christianity there were plenty of others who didnt as the C of E slavery records demonstrate.
You CANNOT have Christianity without the church.
There was christianity without the church for about the first three hundred years. It was the romans who organised it into a church (organised religion):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity
There was christianity without the church for about the first three hundred years. It was the romans who organised it into a church (organised religion):
Well then, all you have to do is wind the clocks back 1700 years (presumably starting with NOT appointing a new Pope) and then getting rid of all these people:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_the_Catholic_Church
Then all that will be needed is to get rid of the Priests.
I'm all for that but I suspect the majority of Catholics might not be.
these all existed long before christianity
of course moral philosophy existed before Christianity, the Chinese school produced IChang in 400-500BCE, or thereabouts but the output; legalism, mohism, confucius, isn't the moral code that you personally espouse is it. Secularism, feeedom of thought and so on; those things are based in medieval Christian scholarship.
christianity
secularism is based in Christianity?
really?
Secularism, feeedom of thought and so on; those things are based in medieval Christian scholarship.
Erm...
To be fair, that's not a sentence I've read before so you do get a point for originality.
Ooh, another one of these threads!
secularism is based in Christianity?
Quite possibly, yes. You're so used to a lot of Western Christian ideas that you may not be aware of how they came about. The Enlightenment didn't appear in a vacuum, it originated in Christian countries from people who had been brought up Christian and were often Christian themselves (as above). We're so used to the idea of fundamental human rights and everyone being of equal value that we forget that these ideas were spread (at least in our tradition) by Jesus and whilst to us it seems pretty basic, these were radical and dangerous ideas at the time, and that's what got him killed.
Since mediaeval times everyone in Europe has been taught that they are all equal before God. This means that no matter how low your social class, you still matter. This has fostered countless rebellions and protests over the centuries. Of course rebellion isn't uniquely European, but the foundations are different. In China the protests against bad Emperors were along the lines of 'you aren't doing your job properly' - i.e. you still have the divine right to rule over us but you're not holding up your end of the bargain therefore you're not doing what the heavens ordained you to do. In Europe this right was called into question, because all are equal before God. Of course the Church, being a human institution, becomes powerful and greedy, but there are always people protesting against it - Martin Luther uses these ideas to start the Reformation, which leads to the Enlightenment which ultimately leads to us having the freedom to be atheists at all. So yes, atheism is derived from Christianity, in a sense.
I seriously recommend you read Dominion by Tom Holland (the guy from The Rest Is History), it's a cracking read and talks all about this - that much of what we consider 'Western liberal values' are built on Christianity.
To be fair, that's not a sentence I've read before so you do get a point for originality.
No, definitely not an original thought, see above.
Then all that will be needed is to get rid of the Priests.
I'm all for that but I suspect the majority of Catholics might not be
Also not an original thought, even amongst Christians.
The Enlightenment didn't appear in a vacuum, it originated in Christian countries from people who had been brought up Christian and were often Christian themselves (as above).
Yes, in a time where not being a Christian was a good way to get murdered, it really is surprising that so many Enlightenment thinkers were Christian.
When something comes after something else it's common to say it came 'from' that thing. Sometimes that is true, often it's not.
For example, modern Germany came after Nazi Germany. It didn't come from Nazi Germany.
Western secular values came after the mysticism and dogma of the middle ages. It didn't come from it.
We're so used to the idea of fundamental human rights and everyone being of equal value that we forget that these ideas were spread (at least in our tradition) by Jesus and whilst to us it seems pretty basic, these were radical and dangerous ideas at the time, and that's what got him killed.
Again, there is this constant need to try to argue that the Christianity after the Romans formalised it bears any relation to the Christianity that came before it.
By the end of the middle-ages, Christianity had very little to do with the values people would like us all to focus on when we talk about Christian values.
molgrip.
it's all been built and developed over millenia.
the main driving force is evolutionary pressures dating back to when we were primitive hunter gatherers
religions merely co opted the ideas and usually corrupted them
It's an utter nonsense to claim that it all comes from Christianity when the concepts predate Christianity and are seen in non Christian societies and even animals
it shows just how good the theists are at propaganda that you even think this
Yes, in a time where not being a Christian was a good way to get murdered
Hmm I'm not sure it's that simple. I mean yes the Spanish Inquisition happened but not really as a backdrop to the Enlightenment.
Sure, but you can't escape the fact that all the famous Enlightenment thinkers were brought up surrounded by Christian teachings. The Enlightenment did give rise to secularism but also religious freedom. So you can ask your own questions and reach your own answers and they may or may not involve God, because that's what freedom of thought means.
But why are you allowed freedom? Because you're an individual, with rights, no matter who you are. And that idea in our society goes back to Jesus, and you can't erase that because Enlightenment thinkers knew it. You can't untangle the two things. If you think you can, then let's hear it.
secularism is based in Christianity?
really?
See, this is why these arguments are pointless, if you're ignorant* of the history of something like church/state separation as medieval thinkers saw, and understood it, why are you arguing so vehemently about X-tian ethics and morals if you don't actually know anything about the subject?
Secularism as we know it today is largely the result of the writing of Locke, William of Ockham, Talleyrand, and others but they got their ideas from the bible itself.
* non-pejoratively, but if you don't know these things, from what basis are you arguing?
It's an utter nonsense to claim that it all comes from Christianity when the concepts predate Christianity
Which concepts, specifically? What exactly do primates exhibit? I'm not sure you can attribute moral philosophy to chimps if you don't speak chimp and aren't able to interview one.
Unless you're talking about the concept of fair play? In which case, yes, primates do exhibit that in terms of personal interaction, but they will happily tear apart members of other groups or kill each others' babies and so on, so I don't think they are all that into the rights of the individual..?
From Wikipedia.
Secularism's origins can be traced to the Bible itself and fleshed out throughout Christian history into the modern era.[18] "Secular" is a part of the Christian church's history, which even has secular clergy since the medieval period.[19][20][21] Furthermore, secular and religious entities were not separated in the medieval period, but coexisted and interacted naturally.[22][23] Significant contributions to principles used in modern secularism came from prominent theologians and Christian writers such as St. Augustine, William of Ockham, Marsilius of Padua, Martin Luther, Roger Williams, John Locke and Talleyrand.[24]
Do some reading FFS, this is just a re-run of when I told you that religious fundamentalists in 17thC were largely responsible for the concept in England of "one man one vote"
Do some reading FFS
This. Challenge yourself, test your ideas, develop, grow.
The end of the dark ages and the beginning of the Enlightenment is marked by the execution of Thomas Aikenhead. I think it's telling that the last execution for blasphemy marks the beginning of this new age, don't you?
The founders of modern Germany were brought up surrounded by Nazism. Does that mean the foundations of modern Germany are the Third Reich?
The Enlightenment may have started with universal literacy brought about so that people could read the bible, but the unfortunate byproduct of literacy is that you can read other stuff as well as the Bible which people started doing during the Enlightenment.
And again, what relevance did the strict hierarchical structures of the middle ages have to do with the Christianity of pre-Roman times which is the strawman you insist on holding up as being representative of Christian values? The Christianity of the dark ages was about controlling the population through ignorance and mysticism. The Enlightenment changed that because ideas could be exchanged outside the rigid structures imposed by Christianity.
Again, 'coming after' something and 'coming from' something are two very different things.
Or perhaps I've just been reading the 'wrong' books.