What next, protons and neutrons demanding independence, where will we be then?
Being English it also annoys me that I’m stuck with these idiots.
There's room up north for you. And I can confirm, a bit like the best of house party's, every one is welcome to pitch up and pitch in.
Said as an Indian born Englishman living in Scotland with absolutely no intention of ever leaving.
He does have issues understanding Scotland was a willing member of the british empire.
It was, after all, a Scottish king who took power over both Scotland and England, and who drove the idea of Union between the two.
Wales has never been a separate country, only a principality.
molgrips
MemberYou could say the same about other UK regions could you not?
Absolutely. In fact, all of the other regions except England. They have got the government they voted for every year since 1974, with 2 exceptions- one, the Con/Lib coalition, and the last Blair election (but in that case, it was practically tied- 35.5% to 35.7%).
In the same timescale, Scotland got what it voted for 4 times- a third. England got exactly what it voted for 10 times, a coalition that was much like what it voted for once, and a government within .1% of what they voted for once.
I don't have the same figures conveniently for Wales and NI, but I bet 20 scottish pence that they didn't get what they voted 10-and-2-bits times out of 12.
And it's not that this is unfair, or undemocratic. But it doesn't need to be unfair or undemocratic to be a problem.
FPTP and the left/right division in UK politics has a strong polarising effect on this- because more often than not, when a majority government exists, that one party didn't actually hold a majority of votes, they were just the biggest loser. That doesn't affect left and right equally, because most of the time there is one party sweeping up most of the right wing votes which works well in FPTP, while there are 3 large parties taking up the more left wing.
That's poorly explained... Maybe better demonstrated. In the last election, the Tories had a "landslide" but in fact, polled fractionally worse than Labour and the Lib Dems combined. But the Tories got 365 seats because they're a single unit, while Labour and the Lib Dems got 213 despite having more votes.
This is an issue that for various reasons disproportionately benefits the right. And that in turn means it disproportionately disadvantages those nations which vote more to the left.
And just to bring that full circle, the problem isn't just that some places consistently get the party they voted for while others don't. It's also that when those places don't get what they voted for, they generally get something very different, and further something that's a small minority here. While England has always had its first or second choice since the war, and when it's got its second, it's usually been something very close to the first. There has never been any equivalent of England voting SNP and getting Boris Johnson, and probably never can be. It's like England's second prize is a share of the jackpot and scotland and probably the other's second prize is a kick in the baws.
And again, none of that's a conspiracy or a fix. It's just that it's not working. And because it's not a fix or a conspiracy but a load of different factors that have built up over decades, it's not at all easy to fix. And the direction of travel is in the wrong direction.
(goes without saying that the SNP benefit mightily from FPTP in terms of seats. Mathematically, they're the biggest benificiaries of the main parties. But realistically, the Tories benefit more, because they get less seats out of it but more governments)
molgrips
MemberAs I said before – the only difference between Scottish independence and strong regional devolution or federalism is an ancient line on a map. What ties someone in Carlisle to London and not Dumfries?
The fact that Carlisle has never wanted to be anything else. I'm pretty sure they'd be welcome to declare for Scotland 😉 And you guys can have Harthill. But the bottom line is, you've got to be in a region, and these are the regions we have, and there's very little desire to change that so it has to be dealt with.
One of the solutions of course is to create more regions, but funnily enough the big region that benefits the most from the current system doesn't like that idea, and has always framed the problem as something that only affects other people. Except of course when they want to do England-only governing in the United Kingdom government and think that this is a problem because of those intruders from elsewhere, rather than because they're doing local government in the wrong place. But I digress...
molgrips
As I said before – the only difference between Scottish independence and strong regional devolution or federalism is an ancient line on a map.
Scotland already has similar powers to regions in federal nations like germany if not more for example. So your whole federal argument is moot. Federalism wouldn't bring scotland any more powers.
And full on regional federalism isn't possible in the Uk anyhow, England doesn't want it.
What ties someone in Carlisle to London and not Dumfries?
The same applies worldwide, what difference is there to someone in glasgow, london, berlin, syndey, tokyo, bejiing. That's the natural conclusion to that argument. which I agree with borders should be unneccessary, but thet exist and will continue to, so it's fanciful nonsense, we live in a world of borders, and those borders are transient. They change all the time.
There is nothing sacrosanct about the uk borders. The current uk borders are barely even 100 years old. So the question easily can get flipped on it's head, what ties someone from glasgow, belfast, cardiff and london together. I don't see a british union as necessary, nor eternal. Have you see the bams in westminster? It's not set up to work for you or I, under any party.
So leave off the british nationalist slant that you so often like to go down. Politics is about opportunity, and we'll get the opportunity again at some point.
That's the only difference. There's no Scottish exceptionalism, that you're trying to hint at.
molgrips
MemberYou could say the same about other UK regions could you not?
The northeast of England is a region.
Strathclyde is (or was) a region.
Scotland is not a region of the UK. It is one of the supposedly united kingdoms.
Beware.
molgrips
But you are strongly anti-English in your forum contributions, this is undeniable!
It is very deniable. I am very anti-English government, not anti-English.
There's a huge difference.
Wanting your country to be governed by its own citizens and not the big neighbouring country next door is normal. It doesn't make you racist because you don't like it.
seosamh77
If this is an empire, it’s a pretty shit one. the last days of the empire have been and gone.
The last days are when the Union collapses because the devolved countries in it are treated very much like colonies.
And that will be good for each of those countries IMO.
Although perhaps England needs a final convulsion and the elimination of its undemocratic form of government.
It is very deniable. I am very anti-English government, not anti-English.
There’s a huge difference.
I can confirm having met epicyclo and many thousands of others like him, that this is an entirely normal viewpoint in Scotland.
These arguments look like Brexit writ small.
I imagine any breakup will be just as successful.
It is very deniable. I am very anti-English government, not anti-English.
There’s a huge difference.
You need to work on your language in that case.
Wanting your country to be governed by its own citizens and not the big neighbouring country next door is normal.
It already is governed by its own citizens. The act of union happened. Why are the actions of say Malcom I perfectly valid, and the act of union not? Why are Gaelic speakers from the Western Isles all fine to be in your group, but people from Northumbria not? It's because of that line across the island that you've grown up with, that you've been inculcated to believe is separating two fundamentally different classes of humanity. And this is only a received idea, there is nothing real about it.
Nationalism. Is. Bullshit.
It is very deniable. I am very anti-English government, not anti-English.
It's a British government. Plenty of Scottish people in it.
These arguments look like Brexit writ small.
If you hadn't bothered looking very closely I can see why they would look the same, kind of like how a cucumber and a squash look similar.
Why don't you look a bit closer and come back when you're a bit more educated and can actually contribute to the thread?
Nationalism. Is. Bullshit.
I would do away with borders if I had my way. I don't think it's going to happen, do you?
Since we're probably going to have to deal with borders for at least the next couple of generations can we at least agree that they are real things? I mean, I know they're not and they are just things we have mentally constructed but the same argument can be made about money.
Do you also want to argue that money isn't real?
Why don’t you look a bit closer and come back when you’re a bit more educated and can actually contribute to the thread?
a bit rich. fundamentally the arguments and campaigning methods are very similar though oddly a lot of scottish nationalists don't seem to be able to see it. still, it's another epicyclo 'let's bring up independence again thread' that will just re-tread all the others. i can see the point that scotland now are being dragged out of europe against it's (their?) will now so that changes things and agree to a certain extent. passes the time of day i suppose but i'm on holiday so i'm going to take the dogs out in the rain.
Not the same argument. The Scottish government does not set policy at Westminster, and has no veto over major changes made there. The UK government set EU policy, gained opt outs for anything it didn’t want to be a part of, and could veto any major changes that would effect the UK. The UK government can do what it likes and just bat the Scottish government off as a minor irritant, rather than a major source of policy making with a final say over anything it does.
a bit rich. fundamentally the arguments and campaigning methods are very similar though oddly a lot of scottish nationalists don’t seem to be able to see it.
Or they are completely different (ie, 'We want to be a small country with close relations with our neighbors' vs 'We want to be a great big world beating country whose neighbors bow down before us.'
See also, 'We need and want immigrants.' vs 'Breaking point.'
If you see them as the same things it's either because you haven't actually looked very closely or you just really really want them to be the same.
good luck with it all anyway. hope it works out for you.
Epicyclo’s typically inflammatory anti-English tone
He's not anti-English. I've met him several times and I'm English.
"Some of my best friends are English"
I would do away with borders if I had my way. I don’t think it’s going to happen, do you?
It did happen, in 1707 and also in 1283.
Not the same argument. The Scottish government does not set policy at Westminster, and has no veto over major changes made there. The UK government set EU policy, gained opt outs for anything it didn’t want to be a part of, and could veto any major changes that would effect the UK. The UK government can do what it likes and just bat the Scottish government off as a minor irritant, rather than a major source of policy making with a final say over anything it does.
Yeah. UK government - UK includes Scotland. It's not the English government. The current constitutional arrangement of not having an English government is a big issue here.
molgrips
“Some of my best friends are English”
I realise you read my posts with your shit filter glasses, but that comment obviously aimed at me.
If you can scour my old posts and show me anything that is overtly anti-English, throw it up and I'll apologise.
Meanwhile, I'll continue to regard my country as a country, and keep doing whatever I can so that it can be run democratically by its own people.
And back to the Empire theme: having being brought up in and having lived in outposts of the Empire I know the nitty gritty of how it was obtained. Basically mass murder.
It's going to be a great thing to see it finally disintegrate.
Meanwhile, I’ll continue to regard my country as a country
You're not though, you're regarding it as an Empire (see thread title). Your country is the UK.
Westminster government is UK government, it governs the UK and happens to be based in London. Scotland is a region that has more devolved powers than most areas.
The North West of England is a region, it has a lot more people in it than Scotland, it doesn't have the additional layer of government and autonomy. I live in the North West of England, I really despise the current government and recognise that our political system is not fit for purpose but I'm not mental enough to want to destroy what we have got by being a separate entity, despite the political idiots we're still better off being part of the bigger nation. When someone can actually put a coherent argument in front of me that splitting up the union will resolve our political issues I'll listen.
Scottish government is the government of opposition, it's easy to blame Westminster for every ill (especially at the moment) but there's no way wee Jimmy Crankie and team can make Scotland any better than it already is. It's a small population, reliant on a dwindling and outdated oil industry at the political and geographical margins of Europe. Think Europe will come to the rescue, not while Spain has anything to say about it, last thing they want to do is encourage a region to declare independence.
But hey, crack on with your them and us politics.
But hey, crack on with your them and us politics.
A British nationalist accusing others of 'them and us' politics. Good stuff.
It’s a small population, reliant on a dwindling and outdated oil industry at the political and geographical margins of Europe.
Too wee, too poor,
A few countries that are obviously too small to be independent.
A British nationalist accusing others of ‘them and us’ politics.
What?
A few countries that are obviously too small to be independent.
All those countries had their independence in completely different contexts and with different histories. Suggesting it's only about population size is bobbins.
but there’s no way wee Jimmy Crankie and team can make Scotland any better than it already is.
You do realise that after independence Scotland won't be a single party state, don't you?
Or are you in the camp that believes Scots can't govern themselves because of some sort of genetic deficiency?
but there’s no way wee Jimmy Crankie and team can make Scotland any better than it already is. It’s a small population, reliant on a dwindling and outdated oil industry at the political and geographical margins of Europe
Keep talking, that kind of shite is way more effective than any pro-indy talk. 🙂
All those countries had their independence in completely different contexts and with different histories. Suggesting it’s only about population size is bobbins.
Yes, lots of different stories and contexts. What they all have in common is that none of them have had a burning desire to return to their previous owners.
What is it about Scotland that is different in this respect?
Your country is the UK.
Would you use the same attitude/language with a member of sinn Fein? Or does the fact that Irish Nationalists have been 'a bit' fighty in our lifetimes mean their position gets a bit more respect or at least the language used with them a bit more muted?
Curiously the Irish nationalists could be the winners out of the increase in the popularity of the breaking up of the union across the whole UK - you could argue we (the non Irish catholics) are collectively more understanding of their viewpoint now than 20-30 years ago as the union feels more and more uncomfortable for more of us.
It did happen, in 1707 and also in 1283.
What?
Suggesting it’s only about population size is bobbins.
You're right of course.
Those countries also self-govern completely, their people closer to the politicians and without interference from an over-bearing, larger and self-interested neighbour. I have visited all but Ireland on that list, and they seem to be rather splendid places to live, work and belong to.
wee Jimmy Crankie
I find this is a nice handy shibboleth for deciding whether someones views are worth engaging with.
Suggesting it’s only about population size is bobbins.
Exactly my point.
scotroutes
IIRC, there has only been one UK GE where the Scottish vote affected the outcome. And it would seem that, regardless of how shit the Tories are, they’re likely to be in power for a good few years yet.
It's happened at least three times, most recently 2010 when we would have had a Conservative majority without Scotland's votes.
I'll bet one of my testicles and one of my eyeballs - if/when Scotland gets independent it will be shit. There will be approx 3 million or so versions of the independence. The one you get will NOT be the one YOU imagined. This will be the fault of the English. It will turn out that the TNUMTWNT POV will be bollox. This will manifest on both sides of the border.
You think you're going to get a bountiful, chaste and true democracy? You know why your parliament cost £400 million over budget? - The first footstep to independence. Because it was riddled with corruption, ******* RIDDLED with it - the favours and "payments" were still being called in a decade after the place was finished.
"But it will be Scottish shit! Better than English shit!"
You think you’re going to get a bountiful, chaste and true democracy? You know why your parliament cost £400 million over budget? – The first footstep to independence. Because it was riddled with corruption, ******* RIDDLED with it – the favours and “payments” were still being called in a decade after the place was finished.
So you're in the 'Scots are genetically incapable of governing themselves' camp?
BaronVonP7
Member
I’ll bet one of my testicles and one of my eyeballs – if/when Scotland gets independent it will be shit. There will be approx 3 million or so versions of the independence. The one you get will NOT be the one YOU imagined. This will be the fault of the English. It will turn out that the TNUMTWNT POV will be bollox. This will manifest on both sides of the border.You think you’re going to get a bountiful, chaste and true democracy? You know why your parliament cost £400 million over budget? – The first footstep to independence. Because it was riddled with corruption, ******* RIDDLED with it – the favours and “payments” were still being called in a decade after the place was finished.
“But it will be Scottish shit! Better than English shit!”
Perhaps, but least we can get rid of 14 million tory voters in one fell swoop, so happy days, bring it on!
Those countries also self-govern completely, their people closer to the politicians and without interference from an over-bearing, larger and self-interested neighbour. I have visited all but Ireland on that list, and they seem to be rather splendid places to live, work and belong to.
This is what is driving the Independence vote in Wales,which has gone from a mere 7% to currently 32%,long way to go but gaining everyday.
Perhaps, but least we can get rid of 14 million tory voters in one fell swoop
You are planning on throwing out the 700k who voted tory at the last election?
You are planning on throwing out the 700k who voted tory at the last election?
Nah, we need a minority opposition.
“But it will be Scottish shit! Better than English shit!”
If you hadn’t bothered looking very closely I can see why they would look the same, kind of like how a cucumber and a squash look similar.
Why don’t you look a bit closer and come back when you’re a bit more educated and can actually contribute to the thread?
And just like a Brexiteer, you get abusive when you're called out.
Good luck with your trade deals by the way.
All those countries had their independence in completely different contexts and with different histories. Suggesting it’s only about population size is bobbins.
Yes, generally as the result of war to escape occupying neighbours. Is that really the way forward for Scotland?
dissonance
Subscriber
You are planning on throwing out the 700k who voted tory at the last election?
Could mibbe ditch the dumfries and the borders. an idea worth considering. 😆 Will deal with a chunk of those.
What's interesting is that the negative comments seem to revolve around how dare people in Wales, NI, and Scotland be so presumptuous to want the end of the UK.
No one seems to have mentioned that 49% of people in England want it too (according to the survey)
I reckon we should aw just have a big fight about it! 😆
