I don't know how accurate this is for elsewhere than Scotland, but if it's true we're living in historical times.
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50246507933_f7010a9454_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50246507933_f7010a9454_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
I think you mean historic. And yes.
It's ironic that the English nationalist bandwagon the Conservative & Unionist Party have ridden into power will see the end of the union
Shock horror - pro independence lobby group publishes poll suggesting people want independence..
I’m not saying it’s not going to happen by the way, just that the publication of this particular poll is not in and of itself a historic event!
Maybe so. It still looks as if it is English nationalism that is driving a wedge between Wangerland and NI and Scotland though… quite predictably.
My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.
A bit like Brexshit.
The Welsh stats are interesting. I wonder if they would change much if Scotland and/or Northern Ireland left the UK.
The Welsh stats are interesting. I wonder if they would change much if Scotland and/or Northern Ireland left the UK.
Probably, IMO. There would be significant support for a different set-up at least.
The thing is - if the break-up of the UK were done in a spirit of co-operation and mutual benefit it would be a completely different proposition to an acrimonious break-up which would seem to be the most likely option currently.
An independent Wales would face many significant problems with its economy of course, and lesser one with transport - getting from North to South by train requires going through England, and there's not even a decent road linking the two halves either. Ok so it's not a practical issue but it looks crap from an emotional and political point of view.
Don't the Cornish want independance as well?
I think London and the SE should just split off and form their own country.
getting from North to South by train requires going through England, and there’s not even a decent road linking the two halves either.
Annexe Crewe?
Id put money on Scotland being independent within 10 years, if that long.
NI reuniting with the Republic, yes, id put money on that too but not so sure of time frame.
Wales, not so sure.
Loving the fact the Tory party have likely made this all happen.😁
Epicyclo's typically inflammatory anti-English tone in the thread title, I notice.
Annexe Crewe?
Logistically we need a north-south motorway, but environmentally it'd be absolutely criminal!
Maybe we could do a railway that takes trucks and cars, and give it loads of tunnels.
Annexe Crewe?
No ta.
footflaps
Subscriber
Don’t the Cornish want independance as well?I think London and the SE should just split off and form their own country.
Is that with Cambridge included in the SE or not?
Can we not just ramp up devolution until we have a Federal UK?
Not sure if the Federal Govt should be in Westminster or somewhere new. After all, London was built by many Scots, Welsh and Irish as well as English, wasn't it?
molgrips
Member
Can we not just ramp up devolution until we have a Federal UK?
Unworkable. Unless england dissolves in to smaller parts.
molgrips
Member
Epicyclo’s typically inflammatory anti-English tone in the thread title, I notice.
He does have issues understanding Scotland was a willing member of the british empire.
We should just roll everything back about 1300 years.
He does have issues understanding Scotland was a willing member of the british empire.
Yes, it was a partner, it contributed massively and did very well out of it - better than England, in terms of influence/population IIRC.
Wales, not so sure
That was my thinking. I'm not au fait with Welsh politics so prefer not to post uninformed opinion (a position a few other folk should try adopting).
There has in Wales been a sense of solidarity with the Scots and NIrish, as you'd expect from a conglomeration of groups dominated by one far larger. But the problem is that whilst Wales has a strong identity within itself, we don't really have any of the physical, political or psychological foundations of a modern state because Wales never was one, unlike Scotland.
So there are plenty of people who think even devolution and the current WA is a load of rubbish and a waste of money; but likewise there are people particularly in Welsh speaking areas who feel like an occupied country, and not without justification.
'Cofiwch Dryweryn' even a decade ago was basically one large painting on a ruined building on a hillside - now it's all over the place and it's not just graffiti any more.
When HM E2 shuffles off this mortal coil, then the empire will be no more
My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.
Spot on
My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.
This.
Thing is with cummings in power Scotlands going nowhere. If by some fluke we manage to get a more sane UK government the desire to leave will reduce.
Salmon and Sturgeon weren't much better than Boris and chums when it came to referendum campaigning, lots of big bold statements and lots of setting up the other side to blame when it went wrong. All the oils is ours (bet it wouldn't have been, and the oil industry isn't in great shape at the moment), we'll stay in the EU, categorically not true according to the EU they would have had to re-apply with no guarantees.
The only real difference was the people of Scotland weren't taken in like idiots south of the border were with Brexit.
My wife and I are seriously considering a move North across the border...
My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.
welcome to brexit britain!
Annexe Crewe
Worst hip hop collective ever.
I think you mean historic.
I'd lay money on 'Hysterical'
When HM E2 shuffles off this mortal coil, then the empire will be no more
Technically Lizzy Windsor is QE1 of this glorious union of equals but that small fact was ignored by one partner that regards itself as more equal than the others.....
The welsh will be stuck with the english. poor bastards.
molgrips
Epicyclo’s typically inflammatory anti-English tone in the thread title, I notice.
That sounds like the sort of thing a BritNat would say, thinking it's all about England.
seosamh77
He does have issues understanding Scotland was a willing member of the british empire.
No, he doesn't. But it doesn't make the Empire right. We were fed lies and bullshit about its civilising influence when we were taught history, and some people still think it was an enormous beneficent organisation instead of a tool to plunder other people's resources.
It's time to stop the robber baron approach.
Wales is complicated....despite rumours of their passing Labour still rule the roost in much of the nation and Labour are more committed to “the union” than anyone else at the moment including the tories.
Many in Wales are starting to realise the choice is between independence...difficult as that might be and Cornwallisation....a gradual extinction of identity and a subsuming into a Quasi English identity.
My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.
I think this is where I am personally. Given the vote today I would be grabbing the pencil and putting my cross in the yes box without hesitation. If I have lived in Scotland in 2014 I am certain I would have voted No. A lot has happened since them. I am very conscious my desire to vote Yes is based largely on the Tory government, the oxygen thief arsehole brexit supporters that are happily mostly south of the border and the possibility of leaving the monarchy behind too.
I appreciate I need to do more reading to better understand the full implications (+ve and -ve) of independence so as to have a better more rounded and less reactionary reason should the opportunity arise. Or I'll be no better than the union flag waving bellends I dislike so much.
matt_outandabout
SubscriberMy concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate
Yes. Sort of. I mean, yes it's mostly about the current climate, but you need to bear in mind that the current climate is longstanding, worsening, and shows no real signs of improvement. We have, almost certainly, the worst postwar government- least competent, least imaginative, least honest, most corrupt and most deadly- and a reasonably capable opposition but even then, that's not enough to stop England from voting tory. And on top of that you have the way the last few elections proved how dysfunctional FPTP has and the crippling effect that has on politic, and the absolute toothlessness of political regulators, and the growing power of bullshit over facts and three word slogans over complicated but real things.
Like with global warming, climate isn't weather. Seeking independence because of the current political weather would be a terrible idea. But climate lasts, and with over a decade of the wettest weather imaginable and forecasts saying "it'll keep raining til the end of the year, then it'll be replaced by fire tornadoes", climate is worth taking very seriously indeed.
Being English it also annoys me that I'm stuck with these idiots.
Also stuck with the royal family. I've gone very Republican over the last few years. We (all the nations) need rid.
I’ve gone very Republican over the last few years. We (all the nations) need rid.
I agree. Of course you have to accept I don’t recognise your claim to your rights any more than you do theirs.
molgrips Member
The thing is – if the break-up of the UK were done in a spirit of co-operation and mutual benefit it would be a completely different proposition to an acrimonious break-up which would seem to be the most likely option currently.
Sadly I imagine that if Scotland voted for independence, particularly if the predicted fallout from leaving the EU was really starting to bite, there'd be enormous public pressure in England to "punish the ungrateful Scots like the mean EU punished us". And that would be an opinion that a Tory government would be all to happy to go along with.
That sounds like the sort of thing a BritNat would say, thinking it’s all about England.
As a Welsh person I am acutely aware that it's not. But similarly I'm also aware that Scottish Nats seem always to paint it in terms of Scotland vs England. But you are strongly anti-English in your forum contributions, this is undeniable!
The welsh will be stuck with the english. poor bastards.
The Wales independance train is chugging on nicely,everyday Joris is in power,new tracks are being laid for an indywales.
I’m also aware that some Scottish Nats seem always to paint it in terms of Scotland vs England
FTFY
epicyclo
No, he doesn’t. But it doesn’t make the Empire right.
The empire is something historical though, so in the context of the breakup of the uk. it's irrelevant and has no place in the conversation. Independence is about looking forward now backwards.
If this is an empire, it's a pretty shit one. the last days of the empire have been and gone.
The only way for the UK to survive, and I think it is too far gone, would be something like the Swiss model where. there is maximum devolution for most things.
molgrips
MemberAs a Welsh person I am acutely aware that it’s not. But similarly I’m also aware that Scottish Nats seem always to paint it in terms of Scotland vs England.
It's the nature of unequal "partnerships" tbh, the English dominance of the UK means that they also dominate the arguments against it. And fuel them of course.
I mean, we're more with Wales and NI than we are agin them tbh which is the other major influence there- but even if Wales was devoutly Tory and unionist to the hilt, any debate about leaving the UK would still be NI or Scotland vs England, because the Welsh influence would be so much smaller.
(take Brexit as a perfect example- yes it's irritating that Wales supported brexit, but for their votes to have made a difference they'd have needed to vote massively in favour of leaving, more so than any other UK region. The disparities in population mean that the Welsh input isn't the deciding factor
Bannon has been arrested!
Oh sorry,I'll get my coat.
Like with global warming, climate isn’t weather. Seeking independence because of the current political weather would be a terrible idea. But climate lasts,
This. Of course the current government is less than ideal - Brexit, Covid-19, corruption etc, but it's not like this is only time the Scottish voters have voted one way only to be see a different party in power at Westminster. In fact, that has been the most common outcome since WW2. IIRC, there has only been one UK GE where the Scottish vote affected the outcome. And it would seem that, regardless of how shit the Tories are, they're likely to be in power for a good few years yet.
it’s not like this is only time the Scottish voters have voted one way only to be see a different party in power at Westminster.
You could say the same about other UK regions could you not?
As I said before - the only difference between Scottish independence and strong regional devolution or federalism is an ancient line on a map. What ties someone in Carlisle to London and not Dumfries?
