The High Street

Maybe he enjoyed a half day out.

In honesty, that hadn't occurred to me. Maybe it was 'down time' rather than a chore.

Hell, maybe he enjoyed spending time alone with me. (Yeah yeah, I know...)

labour administrations of Blair and Brown pretty much had homelessness licked. Can’t think what might have changed since then?

to add some context I left the UK in 2008....

The problem towns face is that between online shopping and edge of town retail parks people can buy most of what they need / want very quickly and easily. What they've got left to spend when they get to a town centre isnt money - they've spent most of that -  its time. They're looking for things to do, not things to buy.

A lot of towns have been left with too many shops and often shops that are now far  too big on their high street - the demise Woolworths. BHS etc have left buildings too big for a coffee shop or a little indie bookshop to fill. A smart thing councils could do - given that they often own a lot of these retail buildings  - is move a lot of their leisure services : galleries, libraries, dance and musics services into these bigger high street premises and thin the rest out - make some space rather than just swap shops for housing with no gardens or parking - my local council has been replacing under used retail space with parks - you can see the river now.

That contraction in towns and cities has already happened elsewhere of course - the nearest village to where I live - population 2000 - used to have more than 50 shops not that long ago.

yet more coffee shops?

I like going out for coffee, I hate shopping, so more of this please.

+1 more of this please! Hitchin is great for it. Letchworth, despite being so up market, only has one place that actually does good barista-level coffee, despite there being loads of cafes

Places to meet, get on with a bit of work, etc, are what people want these days. Everything else is available from a click of your phone. Just how it is. And frankly - as someone mentioned above - makes towns much more continental and welcoming, especially if they get pedestrianised

Government policy for council funding is a huge part of the problem. Because the central funding of councils is so crappy, few councils can afford to set fair business rates, which puts bricks and mortar businesses at a huge disadvantage in most towns.

What they’ve got left to spend when they get to a town centre isnt money – they’ve spent most of that – its time. They’re looking for things to do, not things to buy.

This.

Hell, it's what I used to do as a college student in the 80s. We'd mooch round Our Price et al, not to buy CDs but for something to do to kill half an hour on our lunch break.

Because the central funding of councils is so crappy, few councils can afford to set fair business rates,

Isn't the charge for business rates set in the budget?

... you can probably lay a lot of that blame on the rise of in-town supermarkets ...

Most in-town supermarkets are now edge of town with a massive car park, where a majority of the customers no longer set a foot in town, ever.

Actual in-town supermarkets can somewhat beneficial. They're quite particular about this kind of thing in the Netherlands where they tend to grant planning only for smaller supermarkets in town-centres and with limited parking. It means everybody has access regardless of transport, but it also encourages people out of their cars and into town centres as there simply aren't many other options.

I know where I live it's the other way round. Edge of town supermarkets have grown into hypermarkets and huge retail parks. Most people here haven't set foot in the town centre for years, if not decades. They've no need, it's just an inconvenience. And it's by design.

Maybe if some of those small high street shops opened in the early evening rather than Tuesday morning at 9.30 some people would actually be around to buy something. Shops aren't open so people go and buy it online. It bemuses me when shopkeepers tell you nobodies been in all day. Of course not, they're mostly working whether it's at home or in an office or factory.

Regarding parking spaces for new flats. If someone is paying £650K for a new flat (rough going rate for a 2 bed in West London) then they can probably afford £2K for something to sit outside for the odd occasion when they do want to go somewhere that very good London transport doesn't get them to. It might not make perfect financial sense but it's lot easier than picking up a rental car on a bank holiday weekend. FWIW, I just checked and I've used a tank of petrol since early May but I'll still keep my car and I'll probably replace it if I need to.

With the internet, small towns really have to find a niche that can only be had by visiting. There's a fantastic weekly street market in Machynlleth because the application to open a Tesco was vigorously opposed (they've given up -yay). Short-term, it hit the local economy, but over time (10+yrs) it has developed impressively.

It only seems to work with small places, though. Anywhere 5,000+ population and it's just impossible to make anyone listen to reason.

I know driving shouldn't be encouraged, but many people still use cars and need somewhere to park. Most towns and cities charge for parking, while it's free at out of town superstore. My local town/city is Ely, and parking has been free for years. There are still lots of small independent shops, plus all the others like phone and charity shops.

If you only need one or two things, and the choice is free parking or having to pay, most people will go to the out of town super store, so I don't think all the blame can be put on the internet.

Most towns and cities charge for parking, while it’s free at out of town superstore.

The big problem with town parking is if its free then shop staff and office workers get there first and park there all day. When their customers and clients arrive -  rather than it costing money to park -  theres nowhere to park at all... other than at supermarkets. Charging for parking is a way of making parking available.

One issue is the supermarket car parks that are only for supermarket customers. It'd be great if they made it clear that you could drive into town to get something from the supermarket and then also wander round town a bit.

We have free parking. It's an absolute shit show, a good proportion of spaces are used by business owners (god forbid a customer may want to park) and the rest is a chaotic mix of streets too narrow to drive in, double yellows (just for show), illegal parking (see previous) and just downright bad driving. I hate trying to park in town, luckily it's only a 10 minute walk, shame the rest of the population don't see it that way, they're too busy asking for the moon on a stick and for retail parks in the middle of the ****ing scheme.

I hate where I live, I know it doesn't really show, but I do. Intensely.

Oh and x2 for opening hours that actually suit the working population.

In most supermarket car parks you get 3 hours free stay and many aren't enforced, no cameras, unlikely to be enforced. Its only the ones that get abused by commuters near stations or people who work in town parking all day that have enforcement. The supermarkets that charge you to park are forced to do so by the local council.

The biggest issue facing the High Street after the internet is rents, landlords can't get their head around the fact that retail property is not worth what is was 20 years ago. They'd rather have and empty unit than keep a struggling business afloat by dropping the rent.

We have free parking. It’s an absolute shit show, a good proportion of spaces are used by business owners (god forbid a customer may want to park) and the rest is a chaotic mix of streets too narrow to drive in, double yellows (just for show), illegal parking (see previous) and just downright bad driving.

Same here. There's a small local supermarket with about 5 spaces next to it, a small - maybe 10 space - car park literally over the single-lane, 1-way road and then a council run car park 30 seconds walk away which is free for the first hour. The only one people care about is the 5 spaces next to the door. If they're not available, they'll park on the pavement, they'll drive round and round and round the small one-way system half a dozen times until a space comes free, they'll park in front of the supermarket loading dock (hazards on of course...)

It's absolute chaos. But this is a local supermarket serving an area within a 5 minute walk.
There's no cycle parking, obviously. That might deprive the needy of a parking spot...

Free parking works, but clearly you need some control. No all day parking, and only free between times which stop commuters parking there instead of the train station car park.

Has Farnham picked up again then as it hadn’t got through the great High Street shutdown completely unscathed when I have visited more recently. I know the big development is still ongoing where they knocked down those shops (shout out to Models of Distinction I used to visit as a young teenager) towards Swain and Jones end and next to the sports centre.

The middle where the cinema was is finally starting to see preparation for the build underway, change of developer seems to have happened.
Flats next to the sports centre are due to finish next year after Covid delays.
Rest of it is busy.
'Welcome to Farnham, here's your sense of entitlement and your Rab jacket...'

Free parking works, but clearly you need some control. No all day parking, and only free between times which stop commuters parking there instead of the train station car park.

Ours is on the statute books so regardless of parking restrictions the police just ignore it and everyone keeps on keeping on. I'm going to be pissing myself when it finally gets decriminalised and half the town gets ticketed in the first week, it'll be glorious. (been coming next year for the past 5 years I think)

Why bother when you can slam through ASDA in 20 minutes?

Because Asda's fresh food is crap.

Parking really doesn't make much difference. My local town has loads, it's £1 short stay or £4 all day. So the parking argument says £1 will stop them coming into town? Yea right.

No-one shops in town, 'cos the shops are cack. The shops are cack 'cos they have no customers. There's no customers 'cos they to out-of-town places instead. No-one has any money 'cos the out-of-town supermarkets and big business have sucked all the profit out. It's a viscous circle.

It’s a viscous circle.

It's a sticky one, for sure.

Parking in Boroughbridge here is free, well, street parking is on a free disc that quite a few shops give out & the main car park is free.
Shops here don't stay closed for long. they usually re-open as yet another beauty shop, a hairdressers or another cafe.

It’s a viscous circle.

& on a slippery slope.

haha yea, just un-sticking people from the driving seat of a car!

Supermarkets have killed the independent shops in my local town. There just isn't room for both.
There really should be a community tax that you have to pay for all profit leaving a 10 mile radius.
The locals do need help though from Councils (favourable planning) and other successful areas/people who have done it before.
Again, each town needs a niche/USP, where you have to visit to benefit from it.

I also live in Ely and agree that the free parking works here. The reason it does is Ely is small and most people can easily walk in to town so the spaces are used by those visiting from neighbouring villages, there is no decent public transport alternative. Ely is also a nice place to visit with the cathedral right in the centre behind the high street and the river a short walk away. There is also a great farmers market.
I worked in retail design for 20 years, nothing the government or local council can do is going to change it back to what it was. And was it actually that great? Many of the stores that have gone are chains which have been replaced by independents that can offer something the Internet can't. Town centres need to be a leisure destination with shops offering services that compiment that. Shops are no longer a destination themselves.

The wide ridge of the summit itself is a bit boring, and downright unpleasant when the clag comes in, but there are fantastic ridges in every direction, stop complaining.

Newcastle, and certainly Sunderland has the life sucked out of them by the massive Metrocentre development - free parking, the usual 'benefits'. Ironically, after a 'forced' trip there today with the family it looks like online is sucking the life out of that too, never seen so many boarded up shops (albeit, prettified to make them have attractive boards, but an empty retail space none the less).

Saying that, knowing a shop manager in the Newcastle, the amount of shoplifting is at a phenominal level and they are basically untouchable (and know it), the police do nothing and becaase its public land they can't ban them (like they can do on out of town spaces).

Chuck in this current inflation/energy price hikes and they'll be less purchaisng too adding to the problem.

For reference my local high street is just charity shops, coffee shops and hairdressers. Even the local post office is now in a petrol station half a mile away. I don't know what you can do to it to make it worth going to.

@thenorthwind that sounds like an exciting high street where is it?

@Stainypants NY440110

I think it is in the process of evolving...

Not sure into what, guess what the local population want/need - pound shops or hipster coffee defo not goods you can get delivered and returned at a time that suits.

i wonder if during covid people got out of the habit of going round the shops on a saturday for entertainment.

on the back of internet retail that must have been a final kicking for the high street.

i’m speculating. i avoid the high street.

Loving the puns. The Wimbledon Common one deserved some recognition.

I live in a historic small town that has some great shops, some great independents and some bigger ones like Tesco and Boots. We still have a few empty though.

My kids love a walk down the high Street. Especially if it involves a visit to the book shop, toy shop, bakers or ice cream place.

The high Streets in other towns not too far away can be depressing to visit.

@thenorthwind very good and there are no pound shops or coffee shops on it either

after saying my local to work High Street is thriving...... one major storefront is in their last week, everything must go plastered on the windows.

Mixed feelings - it's a branch of Sweatshop, their original in fact and they have done a lot of good for the running scene. OTOH they are now majorly owned by Sports Direct.... and well, Mike Ashley.

Shopping centres get no sympathy from me. Intu were what? A billion or so in debt? Good. I can't think of a single bit of good those monstrosities ever gave to the communities around them. (and don't say jobs like being a poxy minimum wage service industry drone is a good thing; that's not snobbery BTW, it's experience)

...... Wrong thread

In honesty, that hadn’t occurred to me. Maybe it was ‘down time’ rather than a chore.

Hell, maybe he enjoyed spending time alone with me. (Yeah yeah, I know…)

Well, youve just reminded me of my Nan, who I used to go shopping with on an occasional Saturday morning, i remember the shops less than I remember the tea room which seemed to be the real focus of the excursion. My memory ia too faded now but I think she spent more more time drinking tea chatting to friends than actual shopping.

The trips even had an element of risk to them, in that the Robin Reliant may not make it there and back without breaking down or rolling over. She upgraded to a Vauxhall Shovette at one point which didn't reduce that risk by much, if at all.

Funny old world, I genuinely used to consider Swaffham a big place.

Anyways, I think my views already been aired but here goes regardless. High Streets need to be places people want to be first and foremost, if thats a smaller, more family friendly more lived in environment that's all good with me. Not sure going up against home delivery for non perishable goods is goung to work out well apart from a few niches in the market.

Someone also mentioned tourism, which locally is a bit of a mixed bag. Theres a few on our high street that actually lose business to tourism. These are your baker/green grocer type shops. The bakers actually shuts specifically for the tourism peak.

The given reason (uh, theres probably a distortion here with someone desperately trying to make a point that cars should always be favoured) for this is the difficulty in parking at that time of year means people end switching to the nearest supermarket. Given it takes 15 minutes to walk from one end of town to the other, and theres plenty of busses, a fair amount of that is really laziness, not all, but a fair amount.

I think theyd largely solve the parking and loss of business issues by making local public transportation free at the point of use. Cant help but think that would help a lot of town centres.

In the 60s people would shop every day (and shopping bags were smaller). Every meal was cooked with raw ingredients. Freezers were a small compartment at the top of the fridge, forever needing de-frosting. In E London a fish man would come round with a barrow and milk and coal was delivered. As more women joined the workforce shopping had to be concentrated into less time, supermarkets offered everything in one hit, processed food meant less time cooking, microwaves meant less time cooking and the development of the hatch-back made it all easier. The 1988 Ed Act meant a free-for-all for where your kids went to school so the school run (sic) had to be factored in all of this. You would know people who owned/worked in the shops, much less likely in a supermarket. Because you were known you could get tick and pubs didn't need bouncers.
The result of all this is more people in the workforce, less time for cooking, kids and leisure (more screen time), obesity, increased isolation and declining social capital and more physical and mental ill-health. Oh and increased profits.

Theres a few on our high street that actually lose business to tourism. These are your baker/green grocer type shops. The bakers actually shuts specifically for the tourism peak.

The given reason (uh, theres probably a distortion here with someone desperately trying to make a point that cars should always be favoured) for this is the difficulty in parking at that time of year means people end switching to the nearest supermarket.

I actually think ALL town centres should be closed off to regular car traffic, it works in loads of places & they’re always much busier & more pleasant.

That assumes a compelling reason to visit. If your local town centre has competition from neighbouring towns and few USPs of its own, people will go next door rather than pay 80p to park for a couple of hours. Take as a random example randomly at total Random, Accrington. It has free parking, always has. They flirted briefly with a disc system, get a (free) disc from nearby shops to show your arrival time; people fled to nearby Blackburn and Burnley in droves because they couldn't be bothered with the faff of obtaining a bit of cardboard and sticking it in their window. Because the elephant in the room is, why the hell would you go to Accy town centre anyway? The only reason is convenience, take that away and it's even more screwed.

That assumes a compelling reason to visit.

The result of all this is more people in the workforce, less time for cooking, kids and leisure (more screen time), obesity, increased isolation and declining social capital and more physical and mental ill-health. Oh and increased profits.

You forgot increased house prices! Two earners chasing a restricted set of properties just bumped prices up.

House price inflation has been greater than income growth so I'd say it was down to restricted supply, growing population and deregulation of rents rather than demand led by dinkys.