Forum menu
Conclusion was that 80K miles to make up the cost difference buying a new Corsa EV vs Corsa Petrol.
Presumably only if you buy it outright, which not a lot of people do; there have been quite a few places where the lease for the EV Corsa has been the same price or slightly cheaper than the petrol version. I assume the same could apply to other cars as well.
Admittedly this was a year or so ago before the EV market went mental, so maybe it's different now...
where the lease for the EV Corsa has been the same price or slightly cheaper than the petrol version.
We did this already. The Sri model petrol was being compared to the entry level ev....
there have been quite a few places where the lease for the EV Corsa has been the same price or slightly cheaper than the petrol version
When I leased, the EV price was very competitive with the ICE ones. I'm not sure it's the case now because that was before all car prices went bonkers.
Cheapest Corsa on Autotrader leasing is £193/mo, cheapest EV Corsa is £299, that's 10k miles and 36 months with 6 months initial payment.
Cheapest Ioniq Hybrid is £245, cheapest Ioniq EV is £325
Cheapest EV of any kind is £275, that's a Smart ForTwo - although there is one Leaf deal at £285.
So now they are way more expensive than they were. By contrast there are pages of small ICEs in the £180/190 range.
Presumably only if you buy it outright, which not a lot of people do
If you buy it outright it has a higher value when you come to sell... hopefully.
Thats what the lease companies are banking on, they aren't altruistic environmentalists.
You must not have listened to the end (or at least when I listened live on the radio he answered these points at the end).
Conclusion was that 80K miles to make up the cost difference buying a new Corsa EV vs Corsa Petrol. (this is around what I came up with when trying to work it out). CO2 wise I think it came out at 36K miles. So ultimately not worth changing your car unless you were going to do so anyway (or are a high miler) and you need to hold onto the new car for a while.
Yeah but this is answering the question of buying a new car if you didn't have a car before.
I'm interested in the question of selling my old ICE car for a new electric car and it didn't really talk about the savings of the idea of keeping something that exists already going.
If you buy it outright it has a higher value when you come to sell… hopefully.
Thats what the lease companies are banking on, they aren’t altruistic environmentalists.
They are banking on the resale price plus the sum of your payments being higher than the purchase price they paid.
I think lease prices are high now simply to reduce demand, since they cannot fulfil them anyway due to slow production and high demand. Hopefully the manufacturers are increasing prices so they can pump the cash back into investing in facilities and R&D, so we ultimately get a better product.
If I'm lucky prices will come down by the time our lease goes back but I'm not optimistic.
I think prices are high to increase profit rather than reduce demand. It's all first year economics supply and demand versus price stuff what's happening to car/car lease prices at present, whether ICE or EV.
Manufacturers are in trouble because they can't get parts to make the cars. The parts (chips) they can get go into the models with the highest margin in the highest margin markets in a damage limitation exercise. As for R&D, that will suffer as it's fueled by profits which are being hit by a lack of parts and the losses due to the war.
I think prices are high to increase profit rather than reduce demand.
They're related. If you can't supply they you put prices up to reduce the demand you can't fill and increase profits at the same time - and in a competitive market you have to re-invest those profits in solving your supply problems, assuming you want to increase market share (not all companies do). But it's market specific, as EVs in the USA are way cheaper than here, even taking their bigger grant into account.
We did this already. The Sri model petrol was being compared to the entry level ev….
No. It wasn’t. That was what you assumed and I corrected you then and again now.
So I conclude that 2kW for heat might be reasonable average over a longer journey, but is not extreme, and it’s possible to draw significantly more.
The average heated seat uses about 50W on it's highest setting and considerably less in the long term. Something else is stealing your electricity.
Without a heat pump you are going to see 2kW initially to warm the cabin, but that will fall off quickly. Fan on high speeds will use more as warm air is dumped out of the car.
Pre-heat before leaving is the best solution - my Model 3 will draw up to the 7kW limit on the charger to pre-heat the cabin and battery.
What will the long term value of an EV be? Without an endless string of mechanical components to fail, a 10 year old EV is likely to be a better proposition than a 10 year old ICE
You think....I don't!
Yes the motors themselves will last a long time but, like everything else nowadays, it's the control systems that will be the failure point.
And some of that's down to the quality of the components.
I have a 9 year old Porsche and a 9 year old golf.
The latter has slightly less miles on it but it's the one that's showing many more signs of aging.
The Porsche looks and drives almost like new!
A "cheap" EV will suffer in much the same way that a "cheap" ICE does.
The elevated cost of new EVs is also to cover the increased costs of manufacturing at less than capacity. The car makers will have huge values of under utilised manufacturing assets that are depreciating without expected income to cover. Not just for EVs either. I'd be surprised if car manufacturers are doing well at all at the moment despite the high prices as the business modelling will have been with much higher volumes.
In terms of funding R&D - it's not directly from profits it will be from borrowing and equity investment - so effectively against future profits which will service the debt and pay dividends/generate capital growth. Companies don't have to generate "profits" and build up cash to invest in R&D - in fact that would be a really poor strategy. Investment & debt structuring strategy is probably the most important financial part of a business model for big companies
Also profit is a flexible concept...
A “cheap” EV will suffer in much the same way that a “cheap” ICE does.
Yes, mine is clearly a cheap car in terms of interior quality. But we'll see, I have no idea how it'll go really.
Companies don’t have to generate “profits” and build up cash to invest in R&D
No, but when demand is high and supply limited, clearly they will be charging more and possibly making more profit per unit.
The fact the same cars are cheaper in the US is interesting. This had always been the case to an extent but when most of the cost is in a single globally traded item it suggests that we are paying more of the costs than US customers are.
Anyway, everything I've read suggests that before long EVs will become cheaper than ICEs. I wonder if the actual cells are the same across cars? If it's the most expensive item and it can be made in large volumes for all models that would be somewhat different to the situation now where I don't think there are many common components between a Bugatti and a VW Polo.
No, but when demand is high and supply limited, clearly they will be charging more and possibly making more profit per unit.
...but the point I was making is that profit per unit will not be high as the capital cost of the manufacturing assets are being carried across a smaller number of units. Capital costs are a really big chunk of modern manufacturing and are pretty much fixed so producing below planned volumes really pushes up unit cost
I have a feeling the car manufacturers are really struggling to generate profit despite high prices
They will not be massively bothered as long as they can see the upstream supply problems resolving and future manufacturing capacity is being put in place as well as R&D.
Nissan recently announced £15bn investment in EV production and development which suggests confidence
I agree that EV price will drop as supply chain sorts itself out and increased competition kicks in. But so will makers’ profits.
But so will makers’ profits.
Per unit. But at lower prices they'll sell far more. It will be interesting if, as forecast, EVs become cheaper to make than ICEs. Because we've already shown that the car market can sustain the prices they currently charge so will prices drop or will they just keep them level and become more profitable?
Nissan recently announced £15bn investment in EV production and development which suggests confidence
Yes they recently released PR about their solid state battery effort which they say will be in production in a few years' time. This could screw up the market a bit if the range is hugely increased, as suddenly no-one will want cars with liquid electrolytes. Or, they will sell cars with the same range but for less.
That sort of step change would really shake up the market. Interesting times. There could be a lot of cheap second hand EVs when it plays through which would still be fine for most people's driving/second car.
Timelines are always deliberately vague with these things
The fact the same cars are cheaper in the US is interesting. This had always been the case to an extent but when most of the cost is in a single globally traded item it suggests that we are paying more of the costs than US customers are.
Are we though ? Or are they cheaper in the US because of import duties / taxes / incentives etc ?
There could be a lot of cheap second hand EVs when it plays through which would still be fine for most people’s driving/second car.
Yes, I think cheap EVs fit better for second car usage but second cars need to be cheap, so maybe the market will force that come 2030.
…but the point I was making is that profit per unit will not be high as the capital cost of the manufacturing assets are being carried across a smaller number of units.
Except the vast vast majority of manufacturers still in business share the line between multiple products. It's relatively easy to send both electric and dino juice cars down the same production line, until the volume of electric cars justifies it's own production line. The separate lines for batteries and motors etc are sized for the volume needed.
The biggest issue at the moment is getting cheap, basic microchips for things like AC, lights, electric windows etc etc
And they go in everything.
No. It wasn’t. That was what you assumed and I corrected you then and again now.
No I direct quoted the vauxhall website with their current range and prices.
You used a third party site quoting prices for the old range with models that are not availible in the current line up
Ok kids is you don’t stop fighting I’m going to turn this EV Car and none of us will go the ICE Age museum.
It’s relatively easy to send both electric and dino juice cars down the same production line
Even if they are on different platforms?
Depends on the production line and the platforms.
And it's worth bearing in mind a lot of "all new" platforms are a) sometimes nothing of the sort or b) can be sent down the same line with minor tweaks to the fixtures and c) aren't designed by idiots, so quite often utilise huge chunks of the existing production line equipment.
Are we though ? Or are they cheaper in the US because of import duties / taxes / incentives etc ?
As we are discovering with Brexit, having a 'single market' creates many savings.
No I direct quoted the vauxhall website with their current range and prices.
Yes - CURRENT. NOT when the film was made. Not at the time we discussed it. At the time of filming the comparison was valid and fair. Which was what I told you at the time. I also pointed out that the Vauxhall were (at the time we discussed it) now offering a £2500 deposit contribution to their petrol Corsa which now skewed the result, but that it was still favourable for the EV on a comparable model.
Now that the plug-in car grant has dropped and Vauxhall have altered their pricing, it's even less favourable for the EV.
BUT - look at the £/month. Despite the fact that the EV is £6+k more expensive, it's only £50/month more... If you'd spend £60 on fuel per month, you can have an EV for NO extra cost.
Anyone know if a large mtb will fit in the back of an EV6?
Don't know, but I'd bet it will with a wheel or two off. They are a decent size.
I saw an i4 today, looked good. So I had a Google, it may be my favourite EV currently. And it can tow. Over £50k though.... 🙁
Anyone know if a large mtb will fit in the back of an EV6?
@reeksy I'd have thought so I can get an XL orbea rallon in my ID4*, they have very similar sized boots. I think you could sensibly do 2 people and bikes maybe even possibly 3 people 2 bikes.
*Back seats down, front wheel out on its side.
Yes – CURRENT. NOT when the film was made. Not at the time we discussed it
Page 47 if you want to refresh your memory on the part where you were quoting vehicles not showing on vauxhall website at the time.
Just had written confirmation from Tusker than I can fit a towbar (just for a bike carrier) on my lease Leaf. Has anyone fitted a towbar to a new generation leaf and have any suggestions/links? I'm sick of shoving two big bikes in the back with the wheels off!
There are bike-rack specific towbar style attachements around which I think would be better than an actual towbar, but they aren't (or weren't) easy to find.
re: Leaf towbar - PF Jones do them, I had a quote for £540ish including mobile fitting.
Nissan dealers can do it these days too, although I think they bundle in the naffest Thule rack available, at £650ish.
Either way it's a Brink detachable towbar, if you have a local towbar place that carries them then they'll be able to do it too. It's one of the special non-towing bars with the extra knobs on the sides so you can't hitch up a trailer.
Oh nice, just seen PF Jones and yeah looks doable. Only concern is my current rack (Thule easyfold XT 933) might not be compatible but the chart used to tell you whether it fits or not is pretty unclear with all the different Thule models. I'll ring them up and see what they say!
PF Jones are great btw. I did my own install, I had to ring them with a question and got through to a proper experienced fitter who sorted me out.
Just grind the knobs off
Page 47 if you want to refresh your memory on the part where you were quoting vehicles not showing on vauxhall website at the time.
OH MY GOD - you can't read or remember!
I said:
Daffy
Full Member
5th gear did an article recently that compared the cost of ownership of a new Petrol Corsa and a new Electric Corsa over 3 years and 22k miles. Despite the £4.5k higher purchase price for the EV, the cost of ownership was £2k less for the EV over the 3 year period. This assumed that both were purchased using PCP and that the EV was charged using a standard tariff at 14p/kWh. On a cheaper charge tariff, the difference would have been closer to £3k in favour of the EV.Posted 3 months ago
You said:
trail_rat
Free Memberbut thats not the difference is it ? going by the RRP on vauxhalls own website…. unless for journalistic license you chose the top spec petrol at 23grand and the lowest spec Electric at 27k …..
its more like a 10k difference like for like.
Posted 3 months ago
YOU then said:
trail_rat
Free MemberWell if only they made a Corsa E-SE
It might be at a price people are willing to pay for a tiny car…..
I want a tiny run around. I’m looking at a Citroen c1. The gap between a c1 and the next smallest electric car after the spring covers a metric **** load of fuel…..
To which I replied:
They do. It’s £25.8k. But a quick check through CarWow and there are several places offering upto £4K off that.
So now you’re down to £21k for a 50kWh electric car with a 220 mile range that will cost around £220 a month including fuel, tax servicing and 700 miles. You’d be paying £130 a month to run a banger on Dino juice not considering maintenance/repairs/MOT, etc,
Got any more excuses?
THAT was page 47!
YOU were claiming that there was no Corsa E-SE and I showed that there was and that it was still better value than the equivalent Corsa SE petrol over 3 years on a PCP deal at prices available at the time on Vauxhall's own website.
Anyone know if a large mtb will fit in the back of an EV6?
Yes, with ease with the front wheel off.
We've just had our EV6 order confirmed with factory fitted tow bar.
That will result in a 2 year old Peugeot e208 going into the 2nd hand market - and good riddance. Awful bloody car
I am humoured you believe those quotes are an arguement for the point you are arguing against in the first quote in your post and go on to insult MY inability to read.
Point still stands I was using the mfgs website were the cars you you were quoting from third party sites weren't showing as range was restructured.
Can we also talk about electric vans on here?
Ford reveal new all-electric E-Transit Custom: https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2022/05/09/All-Electric-E-Transit-Custom.html - completely new van, this is the shared project that's also spawning the equivalent VW Transporter. No mention of variants yet (L2 double-cab 5-seater with tailgate please). Probably still 8-10 years minimum until I replace my current Transit DCIV so by then range and charging network will be improved further. Cost will be the obvious issue but all new vehicles cost way more than I expect.
Claimed 380km/236mile range. No (official) word on battery capacity or power output. It'd be great if they keep the same 68kWh battery and 180bhp or 265bhp outputs of the full-size E-Transit.
Can we also talk about electric vans on here?
Mate it says CAR in the title.
Just kidding 😉
Anyone see the announcement from Nissan about their solid state battery production plans? Could be in cars in a couple of years, that'd be huge. Twice the range for the same volume, or half the batteries for the same range - here's hoping they don't cost twice as much per kWh 🙂 A bit denser than normal batteries, so it's only about 50% more range by weight IIRC.
Production in 2024, car due in 2028 apparently.
Mate it says CAR in the title.
Meh, it says here there's a STW magazine but I don't pay attention to that either 😉
Its advances like that by Nissan that I hope will come to fruition before I next change van car vehicle. Assuming it avoids the tin worm (although Transit history of old doesn't give that promise) I'll easily have a decade to wait and see where electric vehicle development gets to.