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Blimey, a Leaf is about the same price as a Qashqai.
Blimey, a Leaf is about the same price as a Qashqai.
Yes pricing went insane. You likely got in just in time.
That is what I mean when I say the gulf between a petrol car and an EV us worth a shitload of fuel.
For fuel it’s usually about 1p a mile for me, that looks like going up to 1.5p in July when my fixed tariff ends.
I've been looking at this recently as we may need to change our car soon. Looking very much at the cheap end (Leaf or MG5). Over long term it just works but depends on us doing the millage (assuming petrol doesn't double in price though). The total cost is massively front loaded in the cost of the car (so unlikely to go electric just now).
We're currently fixed until September 23 so unlikely to change until next year. Currently we're 20p kWh and I reckon that's coming out at > 6p/mile (MG5 210 range, 57kWh battery, 0.85 charge efficiency).
Yes pricing went insane. You likely got in just in time.
That is what I mean when I say the gulf between a petrol car and an EV us worth a shitload of fuel.
I was surprised they were the same price. I'd thought of a Leaf as comparable to a Qashqai, going by interior space and general appearance. I didn't look much at new EV prices but our list price was £30k minus £3k grant, which looks to be the same as the Leaf now.
Currently an Ioniq EV is £8.5k more than the cheapest Ioniq which is a hybrid. Looks like it's rated at 62mpg which is roughly 10.7p a mile at £1.50 for petrol. At 7.5p/kWh and say 4.7m/kWh average consumption the EV could be doing about 1.6p/mile. So for 10k miles that's about £910 cheaper to drive the EV - IF (and it's a fairly big if) you could actually average 62mpg in the hybrid. My long term EV average is actually 4.7m/kWh
So at that rate a 9.4 year payback at 10k miles per year.. Or, if you were only to get 50mpg in the petrol hybrid and do 15k miles that brings it down to 5 years. All on current prices of course.
At 7.5p/kWh and say 4.7m/kWh average consumption the EV could be doing about 1.6p/mile
Charging is not 100% efficient so I think you're probably a bit out on your calculations here.
Though I think £1.50/l is also optimistic so maybe this cancels out...
I also think his cost of leccy is optimistic but yeah . Long pay back.
Now if I had free charging at work
access to cheap leases
Need to have a car newer than 5 years on the drive for policy
Then the maths is different
My lease was an exceptionally good deal it must be said. I am not sure I'll get another EV when it is up. If we can go to one car we could lease a tow-capable car (Ionia 5) for the same price I pay now per month for the Ionia EV and the loan on the Merc, but only leasing so not gaining any asset. I just can't afford to buy an Ioniq 5.
A large part of that calculation is that if we were to be a one car family the annual mileage would be so low as to not be worth it until there are good used options.
Just moving back to a company car after diesel ownership for the last 5 years. Gone with EV via salary sacrifice as it’s by far the cheapest way to get a new car. Hope to make some useful savings on personal fuel via mainly charging at home albeit the end of fixed electricity deal in the summer will dent that a bit.
21 in the Merc is really quite warm, 21
Celsius vs Fahrenheit?😉
Our eNiro is a lease and the deal was the reason that we could afford and justify it. Buying outright was never an option, as even a Niro was nearly half a million kronor, but the leasing monthly costs work out at about 4500kr.
Yes, that is high, but that was for the middle model with bigger battery and motor and included full insurance, servicing, winter tyres on alloys and tyre hotel for them.
I need to sit down and do the maths behind the running costs when I get a bill from our electricity people, but just taking into account the insurance we had to pay for our Passat in town, it’s not a bad deal. Fuel costs are, as I said on the other thread, about 18-20kr a litre depending on whether you want E85 or 95 and are only going up. El is, for the moment, cheaper (even though it is expensive). Also, no tax on the car compared to an ICE, despite the Passat being classed as an eco and having reduced tax.
I never understand this argument, proper ‘man-maths’ if ever I read it.
I was responding to Moly's comment.
I know exactly what my car has cost:
50.87ppm for all costs if sold today
21.32ppm purely running costs
I know exactly what my car has cost:
50.87ppm for all costs if sold today
You know what your car would have cost if you sold it today, but you're not. You won't know what the total cost has been until you do sell it so not that useful of a figure IMO.
Interestingly I was reading about an a study in the gutter press.
A comparison company called mone.co.uk (who?)
Published the below data.
Denmark - Saving £22,036.26
Norway - Saving £14,313.72
Ireland - Saving £3,312.59
France - Saving £2,779.45
Iceland - Saving £2,564.69
Switzerland - Saving £2,219.09
The Netherlands - Saving £1,801.54
Portugal - Saving £156.77
UK - Spending another £720.44
Germany - Spending another £692.79
You won’t know what the total cost has been until you do sell it so not that useful of a figure IMO.
Semantics. Its easy enough to make an estimate.
But to be sure its no more certain than you know the cost of your next lease..... Swings and round abouts.
You know what your car would have cost if you sold it today, but you’re not. You won’t know what the total cost has been until you do sell it so not that useful of a figure IMO.
FFS I'm out, yet another thread where Moly can't be told.
I also think his cost of leccy is optimistic but yeah
It's not, Octopus offer the Go tariff which gives 4hrs @ 7.5p overnight, it's the tariff I and many other EV drivers are on.
EV's are the way to go if you plan on leasing, especially the 'all in deals' as lease cost's aren't much more than an ICE car. Also good if you do alot of commuting in the car.
Prior to Covid, I was looking at a used Zoe or similar for the 10 mile commute into the city, and free charging at work. Since covid, I'm only in the office 2-3 days a week, and I've switched back to cycle commuting (used to do it but suffered a bad accident 6 years ago). My current car is 20 years old, and it's yet to get unreliable, but I'm not using it much. It would be silly just to change for the sake of it, and not good environmentally.
I can't justify £400-£600 on a mid range EV every month, for what use it would get. Using an ICE car where it works best (longer trips) then local via bike or foot is far better, or taking the Aygo.
Even the free charging at work isn't selling it.
Then again, these new city EV's could change things for us - doesn't need more than 30-40 mile range as we both work 10 miles away.
Mine hasn’t arrived yet, but even taking a pessimistic view of mileage/cost of elec it’s going to be less than 50ppm, probably closer to 45ppm. That’s on a lease of a £45k EV. It’s a work scheme (which I know I’m fortunate to be able to access) so includes insurance, servicing, tax etc. so def. an all in figure. That all in figure is one of the attractions tbh, one less thing to think about. Call it hedging on future motoring costs! Horses for courses, naturally.
It’s not, Octopus offer the Go tariff which gives 4hrs @ 7.5p overnight, it’s the tariff I and many other EV drivers are on.
I've just checked and the Go cost is 6.5p more per KWh outside of the 4 hour charging window versus standard (in my case Shell Tariff). So that needs to be factoring into the calc.
Still works out significantly cheaper as long as you are disciplined with charging only in the window but the headline rate is misleading. If I actually ever manage to get a bloody ev delivered I will work out a blended rate spreadsheet to work out savings at various usage levels
Right so that's something like 36p per Kwh outside the overnight window of 7.5p (30p per Kwh is the usual charge now). Wowsers. I'm assuming this can all be automatically timed with the car.
How far do you go, say in town on 1 Kwh ? - Got to be cheaper than say 25 mpg in city in a large petrol car.
Wowsers. I’m assuming this can all be automatically timed with the car.
Yup but it’s easier to programme the charger. Charge off peek and the savings are much bigger.
How far do you go, say in town on 1 Kwh ? –
For me in my big suv style. Currently it’s about 2.1 around town. They really don’t like short journeys in towns.
In my postcode Go is 33.96p per kWh outside cheap 4 hour window, my Shell Tariff is 27.36p. standing charge for both is just over 48p per day.
As I say above I will do myself a blended rate spreadsheet at some point - but Go will be cheaper for me, but it's wrong to just use the 7.5p in isolation for cosy of charging EV
Also need to check if there is any impact on gas tariff as well, as am I'm on standard variable I'm assuming not - but in normal times dual fuel tariffs are cheaper
FFS I’m out, yet another thread where Moly can’t be told.
I can be told: what you've told me is that your (and my) diesel car is more expensive to run but is cheaper to buy. I agree. And as I showed earlier, (new) EV ownership has a payback time but it depends on how far you drive.
All I'm saying is that brandishing an all-in-one cost of ownership figure based on something you're not going to do (i.e. selling today) isn't especially useful, in my view. It might be in yours, in which case crack on but there's no need to get the hump.
I’ve just checked and the Go cost is 6.5p more per KWh outside of the 4 hour charging window versus standard (in my case Shell Tariff). So that needs to be factoring into the calc.
Good point, I hadn't factored that in, although my current deal is only 16p on-peak which at the time was also cheaper than most.
But then again, I can also use the off-peak tariff to heat my water, which could save more again. And you can only get that tariff if you have an EV!
So, Say commuting 20 miles a day in traffic, 2 miles a Kwh
You'd need 10 Kwh a day, so let's say £1 off peak (10p per Kwh), £3.50 peak (35p per Kwh). So max £17.50 a week for 5 days commute paying top rate- you'd struggle to get a city car to come close. Double that for a larger ICE.
At best £5 a week in leccy.
Something to think about. Cheaper than a running a blooming hot tub !
How far do you go, say in town on 1 Kwh ?
Well, there's town and there's town. In our car it's between 4.5 and 7 miles depending on weather and the roads you're on, usually it's a little over 5.
2 miles per kWh is shockingly bad, it's the equivalent of a 20mpg V8 monster in electric terms.
2 miles per kWh is shockingly bad, it’s the equivalent of a 20mpg V8 monster in electric terms.
Based on a very short journey yeah that’s about all it’ll do. My town driving Will literally be going into town to collect something and back. Be around 1.5 miles max.
At a rough guess city driving gets me about 2.5 to 3 but I’ve little data for that. Remember I’ve a 2 ton beast that on lease at the time was the cheapest.
Yeah, even then it's still cheaper than an ICE!
Based on a very short journey yeah that’s about all it’ll do. My town driving Will literally be going into town to collect something and back. Be around 1.5 miles max.
a) Unless you have something actually wrong with you that precludes walking (or a large package to collect), it's probably quicker to walk!
b) that'll be the monster AC system trying to heat up the car interior and driveline systems. The longer the journey, the less impact the AC start up cycle has, on a short, slow journey it might be 50% of your consumption. (As a ball park figure a large estate will require around 35 kW to cruise at 90-100kph so a slow drive (under 50kph) might average about 10-15 with all the acceleration and deceleration. Depending what the start conditions are (damp/cold/hot/humid etc) the AC could be pulling 7-9 kW at the same time...)
that’ll be the monster AC system trying to heat up the car interior and driveline systems.
Well, my car is much smaller and it still does this to a significant extent. It takes some time for the trip average to go up to sensible levels just like an ICE. I did wonder why this was, but it might be battery warming etc as you say.
Unless you have something actually wrong with you that precludes walking (or a large package to collect), it’s probably quicker to walk!
Errrr! Thank you. I generally walk into town even if I’m getting a some shopping but thanks anyway.
This is an interesting discussion.
In simple terms for EV - running costs are lower versus capital (upfront cash less residuals = depreciation)/lease costs are higher.
Lots of variables in play in all of this and all these will be on slider depending of use, length, of ownership, financing model & cost/opportunity costs, fueling cost (petrol and leccy) Another factor that will increasingly play into this is that the residual value of ICE will probably fall rapidly as long as Govt doesn't abandon net zero strategy. This will increase ICE lease costs all else being equal
It's great stuff - I'm going to build myself a mega spreadsheet model to run some scenarios
2 miles per kWh is shockingly bad, it’s the equivalent of a 20mpg V8 monster in electric terms.
However, in terms of CO2 it's more like a 2CV than a V8 monster with the UK energy generataion mix.
People are often unaware of just how shockingly bad their ICEs are from a cold start. Even if EVs don't like the cold they're a hell of a lot better than ICEs.
Starting from the ski resort with an ICE requires much clearing of glass before attempting to drive and then regular stops to clear the screen because the heater on an ICE doesn't work till the engine is warm which doesn't happen when you're engine braking with no fuel being used going down a mountain. On very cold snowy days I drove around in circles to get the engine warm enough to keep the screen clear before descending. I regularly see people leave their cars running for 10 minutes or more before driving off. I'd guess 10mpg rather than 20 for the start, warm up and first 10km drive.
With an EV even though the heater isn't especially powerfull it's enough to keep the screen clear as soon as you've finished scraping the glass.
Please share 🙂 I am wondering if pressure from die-hard petrol heads will keep residual prices of more desirable ICEs higher than they would otherwise be? Perhaps in about 15 or 20 years.
Other factors to consider:
- Demand for used EVs will be high because people want them who cannot afford new. But on the other hand, prices for EVs will fall once the market for people who can pay £30-40k is saturated. And ex-lease cars will come on the market soon.
- Better tech will make current EVs less desirable - there are many breakthroughs in the pipeline, most imminently solid-state batteries that will last as long as the car itself and can be charged really quickly; then we have the possibility of sulphur or lithium air batteries that will dramatically increase range or reduce cost for the same range.
- Post 2030 will petrol/diesel become cheaper as demand falls, or will oil producers reduce output to maintain prices? Or pull out altogether if the market then becomes over-saturated with producers?
- What will the long term value of an EV be? Without an endless string of mechanical components to fail, a 10 year old EV is likely to be a better proposition than a 10 year old ICE. The battery might fail, but an older EV with a refurb battery could well be as good as new - tech developments aside.
Starting from the ski resort with an ICE requires much clearing of glass before attempting to drive and then regular stops to clear the screen because the heater on an ICE doesn’t work till the engine is warm which doesn’t happen when you’re engine braking with no fuel being used going down a mountain.
To be fair that is a fairly niche usage. Most of us aren't driving to ski resorts regularly. And of course, lots of ICE cars have electric auxiliary heaters and even heated screens.
Starting from the ski resort with an ICE requires much clearing of glass before attempting to drive and then regular stops to clear the screen
Your car is clearly broken.(or from 2002)
As molgrips points out anything built in the last decade outside of the budget budget stuff has aux heaters or heated screens.
One plus for the little 3cyl is a how quick it warms up and b how quick the screen clears due to the aux heater in the screen blower,
It’s quicker than the heated screen in the Land Rover 😮
The battery might fail, but an older EV with a refurb battery could well be as good as new – tech developments aside.
If only that were the case up here - if I believed that I’d invest in the long term
They will still rot though meaning there is a definitive end date in any calcs on vehicles used up north
Don’t you just hate it when you’re descending from a ski resort and your screen freezes up.
If only that were the case up here – if I believed that I’d invest in the long term
It remains to be seen. I mean, think about all the engine and gearbox problems that consign ICEs to their grave, most of them don't apply to EVs. But on the other hand, you might need say, a new inverter, or the heat pump might go wrong etc. Thing is, if everything else were fine, personally I'd be interested in a cheap EV with a bad battery if it were economical to get a refurb done and put it back on the road - and if it were economical, people would be doing it. I think there are fewer mechanical hidden gremlins to pop up.
Starting from the ski resort with an ICE requires much clearing of glass before attempting to drive and then regular stops to clear the screen because the heater on an ICE doesn’t work till the engine is warm which doesn’t happen when you’re engine braking with no fuel being used going down a mountain.
Stop buying 5h1t cars?
It remains to be seen. I mean, think about all the engine and gearbox problems that consign ICEs to their grave
not on my watch .
Unsolvable wiring/canbus disasters and loom destruction + rust are what send my cars to the grave.
12-15 years on a regular used car up here seems to kill them with structural rust. - sills / seatbelt mounts / subframes - last time i checked electric cars still have those and they are still made of things that rust.
bought a 5 year old car from oxford in february - underside looks MINT - brand spanking new looking.
we have a 7 year old car from the same marque that we have had up here for 5 years
Looks like its lived in the sea..... and it gets the underside washed regular to keep as much salt off as possible.
Don’t you just hate it when you’re descending from a ski resort and your screen freezes up.
Your iPad isn't heated? Scandalous...
Going back to whether using the heating reduces range and whether 2kW is reasonable or extreme consumption for a heated seat and heating/ac. I've dug into the data that the car downloads to the app. Two return journeys by the same route, similar traffic but the second one was colder and I had the heater on for the return half, and the heated seat for about 3/4 of that.
This trip used only 0.8kWh/100km for secondary, things like radio and lights. So the primary (motive power) used 12.6kWh/100km.
On this trip, both the total and the secondary were up - the primary was up to 14.9 (probably down to the cold battery) and the secondary up to 4.4 - so an extra 3.6kWh/100km from the heating, averaged over both legs. To get the average over both legs, it must have averaged 7.2kWh/100km on the return leg, when it was on.
Doing the maths for a speed of 52km/hr and converting kWh/100km into kW, that's 6.5kW primary on the first trip, 7.7kW primary on the second, and 3.7kW secondary with the heat on. That's a significant extra usage and dropped the range by 22%. If there had been a passenger using the heated seat as well it would drop further.
It was a relatively short journey (20min) so a lot of that was getting up to temperature, and the average would drop on a longer journey - but then, the e-Up is the car we have short journeys, Since the return leg started from a layby, I couldn't preheat from mains.
So I conclude that 2kW for heat might be reasonable average over a longer journey, but is not extreme, and it's possible to draw significantly more.
Thought this was relevant here. You and Yours from Radio 4 have a new featuer every Thursday looking at are the lastest and greatest products really all they're cracked up to be. They started with electric cars.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00162yr
Some quite good info in there but I really can't believe when he said this kind of test has never been done. Surely someone has.
Also a bit annoying that he never really answered his original question of trying to calculate if it is worth getting rid of your old petrol car for an electric. There are some answers and data that could help you decide but nothing concrete.
Also a bit annoying that he never really answered his original question of trying to calculate if it is worth getting rid of your old petrol car for an electric.
You must not have listened to the end (or at least when I listened live on the radio he answered these points at the end).
Conclusion was that 80K miles to make up the cost difference buying a new Corsa EV vs Corsa Petrol. (this is around what I came up with when trying to work it out). CO2 wise I think it came out at 36K miles. So ultimately not worth changing your car unless you were going to do so anyway (or are a high miler) and you need to hold onto the new car for a while.